Author Topic: Gun control.  (Read 1523 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2016, 12:56:22 am »
If you really fear you will just stand there and crap yourself because you can't make that decision, fine, but don't dare presume to tell other people how they can handle a life or death situation.
At least I now know why you are anti-gun, though I already had my suspicions.

I will dare, the law exists as an agreed collection of rules by the citizens, I am one.  So thank you but I will dare, very much dare.

If you're still confused, we should talk about banning racing stripes because they make cars go faster.

Also, I can get you being a weiner towards me, but theres no reason to being a jerk towards Kobuk considering for the most part he is agreeing with you. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 12:58:20 am by Natura Wolf »

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2016, 01:02:28 am »
I have heretofore stayed out of the whole gun control debate simply because it's too volatile. I'm breaking my own rule by posting this, but in light of Orlando and other events I'm going to state my beliefs  on the subject. Then I will step back and let the rest of you debate what I set forth.

I agree with Kobuk in that gun control starts with gun owners. If "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true then it necessarily follows that certain people should never be allowed to touch a firearm.

1.  Mandatory FEDERAL background checks for all firearm purchases. No exceptions. If you have been convicted of a felony, violent crime, domestic abuse, and certain other classes of crimes, you are prohibited from buying a gun.
2.  Mandatory completion of gun safety classes before purchasing a gun. I dislike the NRA for many reasons but the NRA has a top-notch safety program. You must pass that program successfully before you can buy a gun. You must be recertified regularly, like a driver's license. Mandatory Federal registration of all certifications. Your certification is valid only for a certain class of firearm. Want to buy a different type of gun? Take the class.
3.  Firearm purchases require fingerprints and photographs to be immediately uploaded to a Federal database. All firearm serial numbers are recorded at the point of sale and transmitted online to the database.
4.  No gun-show loophole. Sales at gun shows must comply with the same rules as those at gun stores.
5.  Private sales must be reported within 5 business days. Fingerprints and serial numbers required.
6.  Ownership is serious responsibility. You must store your firearms and ammunition in a secure location. Failure to do so, if it results in an accidental shooting, is a Federal felony with mandatory prison time.
7.  Thefts are to be reported immediately.
8.  Possession of an unregistered firearm is a Federal felony. Use of an unregistered firearm in a crime is a mandatory 10-year sentence.
9.  Private ownership of assault-style weaponry is forbidden.
10. Gun store  owners have the right to refuse to sell to anyone they consider trouble. Range masters have the right to ban anyone whose behavior is suspect. Both have access to a 24/7/365 contact point with the ATF or other Federal law enforcement authority.


Will this stop all gun crime? No, but hopefully it will reduce it. Even a 5% reduction will save hundreds of lives. What rarely enters the discussion of gun control are the thousands who are injured or killed in this country due to accidental and largely preventable shootings. Most gun owners are responsible and conscientious. Some are very negligent. How often do we read about a death resulting from someone's careless handling of a gun? A few days before Orlando a toddler in the back seat of a car picked up a loaded gun which had slid out from underneath a car seat, pulled the trigger, and killed his mother sitting in the front seat. That mother would be alive if the gun--which belonged to the mother's boyfriend--had been secured in a locked case. A friend of mine, an NRA member and avid gun owner, refused to allow his kid to go to a neighbor's house because that neighbor did not properly secure his firearms.

A few days ago there was an  opinion piece in either Forbes or Fortune which took a more literal application of the "well-regulated" phrase in the Second Amendment. The writer proposed that firearm owners become a part of that well-regulated militia and be required to join the National Guard. In the NG one would be trained and licensed in the proper ownership of guns. Not a bad idea, I think.

I've said my piece. I'll let others take it from here.

I would argue also having a curb on the amount of guns you can have.

Online Loc

  • Tea-obsessed transhumanist and Buddhist.
  • Species: Cyborg snow leopard
  • The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
  • *
  • Female
  • Posts: 4258
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2016, 02:11:08 am »
Please keep it civil. Debate the ideas, don't attack the people behind the ideas.

Avatar by Shibara,  sig by Miser

0.1.0 carrot tail leopard gecko, Gelbstoff
0.1.0 bearded dragon, Dany
0.0.1 amel stripe het hypo corn snake, Vivec

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2016, 07:18:50 am »
Please keep it civil. Debate the ideas, don't attack the people behind the ideas.

Apologise, I know I went too far at least once

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2016, 07:43:15 am »
Quote
considering for the most part he is agreeing with you. 

I am? On which parts/points am I agreeing with Foxpup?

Quote
I would argue also having a curb on the amount of guns you can have.

I would also tend to agree with this. How many guns does a person really need to have? I've heard stories of people having as much as 40-50+ guns in their homes plus hundreds or thousands of rounds of ammunition.  :o And these people weren't even part of a anti-gov't militant group. Seriously, how far is too far for home, family, and property protection? Complete overkill if you ask me.  :P


Now, getting back to that "guns = power" thing.........

I tend to have a problem with that. Guns don't equal power. They can't give you power. They are not animate live objects that can magically bestow upon you special abilities and powers. What is power? How does one get it? Power is something that all people have sought since the dawn of time. We like to think that power comes from instilling fear in others or power comes from hoarding gold and treasure or that vanquishing your enemies gives you power. People who think these things are deluded.

There seems to be a little known phrase throughout history that a lot of people tend to forget: "Knowledge = Power".  Simply having a gun and pointing it at somebody to threaten them may seem like power to some, but it's not. What does make you powerful is the knowledge you have in how you use that gun. ;)  How you safely and responsibly use the gun, the training you took, how you properly carry, store, and maintain the gun, and knowing when to take a life and when not to.........all the knowledge you gain from doing these things is the real power behind owning and using a firearm. Not the gun itself. Guns don't give you power. Knowledge does. Guns might help to achieve or give the impression of power. But they are not power itself. The power to effectively own and use a gun comes from yourself.

Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2016, 07:57:58 am »
Quote
I would argue also having a curb on the amount of guns you can have.

I tend to have a problem with that. Guns don't equal power. They can't give you power. They are not animate live objects that can magically bestow upon you special abilities and powers. What is power? How does one get it? Power is something that all people have sought since the dawn of time. We like to think that power comes from instilling fear in others or power comes from hoarding gold and treasure or that vanquishing your enemies gives you power. People who think these things are deluded.
[/color]


Well you both agree with the fact that there should be guns, but to different levels, at the least anyway.

The idea of power, from research, I understand to originate from the promise of ascension into heaven.  You can see this format in landmark buildings, but it has a common feel of ascension but also futility; of wanting something that you know you cannot have.

Comédie Française - In particular the theatre, how the ranks are set by the nobles sitting closure to the angel sculptures above the stage, and the peasants standing before the actors, even the actors themselves.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Comédie_Française_colonnes.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Paris_Comedie-Francaise.jpg

Palace of Versailles - namely its grandeur
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Versailles_chateau.jpg

 Versailles Gardens - Particular notable one as you get the land slowly rising towards the palace upon the hill
http://i.stack.imgur.com/y0l67.jpg

Knowledge from power has become more common also, though I would say there is still a firm template on the power from the futile desire to ascend, whether it be heavens, financial security, etc.


Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2016, 08:47:12 am »
Think about this scenario.........


45 year old guy walks down to the corner gas station late at night because he forgot to buy his weekly lottery tickets. Let's also say for example that he has a handgun and has a permit to "conceal carry" as it were. The guy is a law abiding citizen and has taken gun safety/shooting courses.
As the guy is paying for his tickets, another man in his early 20's comes in and starts scoping the place out. Moments later, he pulls out a handgun and aims it at the 45 year old guy as well as the store clerk. He tells both of them not to make a move or do anything stupid, etc., etc.
In short, the criminal is agitated. He wants this robbery to go smoothly. He's continuously looking around, waving his gun around, etc.

Who do you think will prevail?
Who do you think has more "power"?
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2016, 08:51:37 am »
Think about this scenario.........


45 year old guy walks down to the corner gas station late at night because he forgot to buy his weekly lottery tickets. Let's also say for example that he has a handgun and has a permit to "conceal carry" as it were. The guy is a law abiding citizen and has taken gun safety/shooting courses.
As the guy is paying for his tickets, another man in his early 20's comes in and starts scoping the place out. Moments later, he pulls out a handgun and aims it at the 45 year old guy as well as the store clerk. He tells both of them not to make a move or do anything stupid, etc., etc.
In short, the criminal is agitated. He wants this robbery to go smoothly. He's continuously looking around, waving his gun around, etc.

Who do you think will prevail?
Who do you think has more "power"?


Ok, well my non serious answer is the lottery company.

In that predicament you can argue that the robber has the most control and therefore holds the power, though it can also be argued that it's not fixed upon the robber because he is a single person.  I think I get what your saying though, he's not really holding any power as regardless of the circumstance he's not really going to ascend anywhere, or rather he isn't really going to be better for this scenario.

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2016, 09:41:30 am »
In the scenario I just mentioned, I would have to argue that the older man would prevail and/or has more power.

Most, but not all, criminals today don't "think". They still cling to the belief that once they have a gun, that gun gives them the power to do whatever they want. It gives them purpose. It gives them the ability to put fear into their adversary. That might be true for some things and situations and so forth, but not for everything. Half the time when I read and hear about criminals committing crimes, they're making mistakes.

If the 20 year old robber in the gas station is acting all fidgety, nervous, shouting, etc., it's because of various things like: He's scoping out the place to make sure nobody sneaks up on him, He's in a hurry to rob the place and get out, or better yet, he has "no control" and "no power".  For the robber, he's thinking that he does have control/power of everything and everyone around him because he has a gun and is using the threat of fear to get what he wants. To a certain degree, that may be true.

But the older guy who isn't acting afraid and is keeping his wits about him, and has the power (knowledge) to properly handle and use his concealed gun may possibly get the upper hand on the robber. An armed citizen who has the knowledge (power) to properly handle and use a firearm is more apt to be more dangerous than your average criminal who just waves a gun around and starts barking orders.

But then again, maybe I'm wrong in everything in this scenario and everything I've said. It's hard to say for sure who will prevail unless more information were available: Who are the people in the gas station, What types of weapons do they have and what are their specifications, etc., etc., etc.


@Foxpup:  If you have any comments about the new posts I made today, don't expect me to reply.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 07:24:43 pm by Kobuk »
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Foxpup

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Cyborg Fox
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 1163
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2016, 07:59:30 pm »
There seems to be a little known phrase throughout history that a lot of people tend to forget: "Knowledge = Power".  Simply having a gun and pointing it at somebody to threaten them may seem like power to some, but it's not. What does make you powerful is the knowledge you have in how you use that gun. ;)
True. I should have been more clear. What I mean is, knowledge (or anything else) can never bring power on its own. There's no such thing as power without the means to back it up. A gun gives you the power to fight back when you may not have had it before. If you don't have the means to defend yourself when the need arises, absolutely nothing else matters.
“Hmm... They have the Internet on computers now.” - Homer Simpson

“Art doesn't work without pain. Art exists for compensating pain.” - Till Lindemann

“There's a fine line between sayings that make sense.” - Too Much Coffee Man

Offline Acton

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Republican Black Bear
  • Unrepentant Furry, Otaku and Anglican.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 2350
    • Acton Hermitage
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2016, 08:10:09 pm »
France has a very tough gun control laws but it could not stop Paris November 15 terrorist attack or Charlie Hebdo attack. Second if you take away all the assault weapons, you still leave areas that are vulnerable. It will not stop terrorist for obtain weapons and there not enough law officials who can respond before the attacker can cause grave damage. The was the case for Paris November 15 terrorist attack, Charlie Hebdo attack, 2015 San Bernardino attack, and Orlando massacre. Let us not forget the 2013 Clackamas Town Center shooting: was stopped before more were hurt or killed by an armed citizen who happened to be in the mall at the time. He did not have to shoot, but pulling the gun threw the shooter off his game.

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2016, 04:41:03 am »
I actually spoke to a customer yesterday who wanted to buy a camera to record drunks passing the street after her window got smashed, she was from Australia and advised that there gun control is based upon the judgement of character and that its seen that if you are seen as suspicious, unusual, etc then you would be banned permanently from having a Gun.  So she wanted a gun for protection

I asked her if she called the police in regards to the window and she said No because she didn't want to kick up a fuss.  That to me isn't just about protection, it's about wanting to put law into your own hands when you are not even using the legal protection and services given to you.

Offline Old Rabbit

  • Species: Rabbit Artist
  • Offical Birthday Wisher.
  • *
  • Male
  • Posts: 14291
    • Art by Oldrabbit
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2016, 10:12:16 am »
I actually spoke to a customer yesterday who wanted to buy a camera to record drunks passing the street after her window got smashed, she was from Australia and advised that there gun control is based upon the judgement of character and that its seen that if you are seen as suspicious, unusual, etc then you would be banned permanently from having a Gun.  So she wanted a gun for protection

I asked her if she called the police in regards to the window and she said No because she didn't want to kick up a fuss.  That to me isn't just about protection, it's about wanting to put law into your own hands when you are not even using the legal protection and services given to you.

I agree.  It's part of being a good citizen to report crimes. In fact if it's bad enough one could
be considered partly responsible. The police or authority can't do their job if the public doesn't
co-operate. We shouldn't try to stop a criminal unless we feel it's  to save a life. Even trying to
stop petty theft could get you hurt or in trouble. Try to get a good discription and report it.
Starting a crime watch group is good too.

Using a gun to confront a criminal can create many unknowns. What if he is mentally unbalanced.
He could try to grab the gun. If he managed to get it, you may end up a victim. Never point a gun
at someone in the first place unless your ready to pull the trigger.
oldrabbit.com
Avatar drawn by me.

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2016, 11:34:06 am »
My fiancee linked me this Gun control discussion from Tumblr,

http://reginaeinferos.tumblr.com/post/145962622748/therevenantrising-reginaeinferos

Certainly a statement worth reading considering the person is going into depths of how Gun Control can be routined.  Please take a moment to see it

One more thing, with conversations referring to back to the weak who are unable to defend themselves, I have a list here which I would put to you, which of these types of conditions would you (or not) permit the person to have a gun.  I know it's a big list, but it's just going through areas where the rights of a gun could be brought into question.

 - Person is under the age of 16
 - Person is under the age of 18
 - Person is under the age of 21
 - Person is partially sighted
 - Person is near blind
 - Person is blind
 - Person is deaf
 - Person is a wheel chair user
 - Person is missing arm limbs
 - Person is partially or majorly paralysed
 - Person is registered as depressed
 - Person is registered under mild autism (or low level autistic scale)
 - Person is registered under medium autism
 - Person is registered as severe autism
 - Person is registered as having poor mobility skills (having issues with grasping, bending limbs etc)
 - Person is registered with condition which results in spasm attacks
 - Person is registered with condition which results in panic attacks
 - Person is registered with a bipolar disorder
 - Person is registered of having a condition that can result in mood swings or aggressiveness
 - Person is registered as undergoing a stage of Dementia
 - Person is registered as undergoing a stage of a Alzheimer's disease
 - Person has been documented as someone who has attempted suicide
 - An ex-criminal due to mild offence
 - An ex-criminal due to medium offence (violent acts)
 - An ex-criminal due to murder of any degree
 - An ex-militant discharged dishonourably
 - Person is an alcoholic
 - Person is known for being under the influence of drugs (any or all levels)
 - Person is suspect of being connected to terrorism or a terrorist group
 - Person has made murderous threats
 - Person has been arrested for minor offences such as aggressive behaviour etc
 - Person does not speak countries language, requires translator or does not appear to understand or communicate well

Again this is just a random list, but perhaps is worth thinking about.

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2016, 11:46:56 am »
Quote
That to me isn't just about protection, it's about wanting to put law into your own hands when you are not even using the legal protection and services given to you.

Yep. That's one reason why so many people want guns. Some people have given up on law enforcement to "do the right thing" so to speak, so they take it upon themselves to be vigilantes. Not necessarily a good thing, IMO.  :P
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2016, 12:05:16 pm »
Quote
One more thing, with conversations referring to back to the weak who are unable to defend themselves, I have a list here which I would put to you, which of these types of conditions would you (or not) permit the person to have a gun.  I know it's a big list, but it's just going through areas where the rights of a gun could be brought into question.

 - Person is under the age of 16 Maybe. Only with adult permission and supervision.
 - Person is under the age of 18 Same as above.
 - Person is under the age of 21 Yes
 - Person is partially sighted Depends on condition of the eyesight. Handguns only. Nothing larger.
 - Person is near blind No
 - Person is blind No
 - Person is deaf Not sure on this one.
 - Person is a wheel chair user Not sure.
 - Person is missing arm limbs No
 - Person is partially or majorly paralysed No
 - Person is registered as depressed No
 - Person is registered under mild autism (or low level autistic scale) Not sure on this.
 - Person is registered under medium autism No
 - Person is registered as severe autism No
 - Person is registered as having poor mobility skills (having issues with grasping, bending limbs etc) No
 - Person is registered with condition which results in spasm attacks Not sure. Depends on how often the spasm attacks are.
 - Person is registered with condition which results in panic attacks No
 - Person is registered with a bipolar disorder No
 - Person is registered of having a condition that can result in mood swings or aggressiveness No
 - Person is registered as undergoing a stage of Dementia No
 - Person is registered as undergoing a stage of a Alzheimer's disease No
 - Person has been documented as someone who has attempted suicide Not sure, but leaning toward No. How often has the person attempted suicide?
 - An ex-criminal due to mild offence Not sure. Maybe handguns only. Nothing larger.
 - An ex-criminal due to medium offence (violent acts) No
 - An ex-criminal due to murder of any degree No
 - An ex-militant discharged dishonourably Not sure. Depends on circumstances of discharge.
 - Person is an alcoholic Not sure. Depends on servereity of alcoholism.
 - Person is known for being under the influence of drugs (any or all levels) No
 - Person is suspect of being connected to terrorism or a terrorist group No
 - Person has made murderous threats Not sure, but leaning toward No. Depends on seriousness of threat.
 - Person has been arrested for minor offences such as aggressive behaviour etc Not sure. How minor were the offenses?
 - Person does not speak countries language, requires translator or does not appear to understand or communicate well No

Here's one that should be added to the list:

Person is an illegal immagrant and is not a registered U.S. citizen yet.   Answer: No guns allowed.
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2016, 12:16:46 pm »
My point with this sheet is that there are people out there that either shouldn't or can't be held responsible with a weapon, I would argue this is another part in why COPs exist, primary reason is that they SHOULD (and I say this because not all countries think or act this way) hold the law created by the people.  I am agreeing more and more that the law doesn't protect the people, people protect the law, and when you put the law in your own hands then i would argue that is a stage of chaos that can emerge.

Offline T-Yoshi45

  • Hero Member
  • 80% Raccoon, 20% Wolf, 100% Awesome!
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 3956
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2016, 09:23:59 pm »
Oh. My. God. this thread blew up! Sorry was away preparing for a show and consoling a friend on her grandmother's death...

Anyways...

Natura, i do feel you belittled me a little bit but i'm not gonna take that tac...But i don't wanna own guns cause i think i'm 'cool and deserving' i wanna own them so i can protect myself and those around me thank you very much...

Profile pic by Sandy Schreiber, her work's awesome!

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2016, 11:07:14 pm »
Oh. My. God. this thread blew up! Sorry was away preparing for a show and consoling a friend on her grandmother's death...

Anyways...

Natura, i do feel you belittled me a little bit but i'm not gonna take that tac...But i don't wanna own guns cause i think i'm 'cool and deserving' i wanna own them so i can protect myself and those around me thank you very much...

Hello,
I do apologise for the reply to you.  I wasn't meaning to be belittling but was getting far to passionately involved into the debate that I was becoming irrational, I am sorry.  I have since controlled myself and moved on with the topic including around the idea of protection

Offline Old Rabbit

  • Species: Rabbit Artist
  • Offical Birthday Wisher.
  • *
  • Male
  • Posts: 14291
    • Art by Oldrabbit
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2016, 10:21:41 am »
I personally think the disabled or handicapped if you rather. Should have the option to show
they can handle a firearm safely. Not just say no because they are different.

The disabled can do many things reasonably well.

oldrabbit.com
Avatar drawn by me.

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2016, 10:41:48 am »
I personally think the disabled or handicapped if you rather. Should have the option to show
they can handle a firearm safely. Not just say no because they are different.

The disabled can do many things reasonably well.

But that depends on the severeity of the condition/handicap.



Another thing.........

Governments (Particuarly the American gov't) as well as various anti-gun groups spend more time, money, and effort "shooting their mouths off" about gun control and gun laws than the actual citizens and criminals who do the shooting. There seems to be more anti-gun rhetoric, charts, graphs, etc., etc. than there is about promoting gun safety, responsibility, gun classes, etc.
If the gov't spent half as much (or more) time, money, and effort promoting gun safety, training, responsibility, and other "helpful" things about guns instead of all the negative stuff, the people of this country might end up a bit wiser and responsible about how they handle and use guns. As I said before: KNOWLEDGE = POWER. The gov't, media, etc. could do to promote more "positive" knowledge about guns instead of focusing on all the negative stuff.

The government spends so much time preventing you from owning a gun. But does nothing to help educate you and help you own/use a gun.  :P




« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 11:45:22 am by Kobuk »
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2016, 03:25:58 pm »
P.S. - Regarding my post above, who should be responsible for providing and teaching more about gun safety, responsibility, and just plain more positive "education" about guns? For those who think or say that it should be ALL on the gun owners or ALL on the gov't, then you are wrong.
Educating people about gun safety, usage, responsibility, etc. is a 50/50 thing. Both parties are equally responsible. Or better yet.........EVERYBODY is responsible.

But some people may think or say "Why the gov't?".  Good question. Let me give you another analogy:

When some of you were young, there was probably a time when your father, uncle, or somebody else gave you a BB pellet gun or taught you how to hunt with a gun, etc.  Hopefully, that parent or guardian didn't just give you the gun and say "Here ya go. Have fun with this.".  Hopefully, they instead sat down with you and gave you a talk about properly handling the gun, how to aim, help you with target practice, and so much more.
When our Founding Fathers wrote and ratified the Constitution over 200 years ago, they gave us the "Right to bear arms". In short, they were like a parent giving their kids (populace) a gun to use. Therefore, if our gov't is the "parent" who gave the kids (populace) the right to bear and use a gun, then shouldn't they (The gov't) share in the responsibility of helping to educate the population about gun safety and responsibility? Yes, yes they should.

But as for how the gov't should help in promoting/educating gun safety and responsibility, I don't know. Charts, graphs, reports, and 60 sec. tv commercials aren't and won't be enough.  :P

So..........I'm looking at you Mr. Federal Government and/or Mr. President (or Mrs. President). You spend so much time, effort, and money trying to control gun usage and take people's right to bear arms away from them. But what have you done to promote and educate the population about gun safety, handling, storage, responsibility, etc. of guns?

Answer:
   ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Remember, you gave us the constitutional right to bear arms. Shouldn't you "own up" and help support the citizens in learning how to responsibly use guns? You're just as much to blame, if not more, as the regular citizens in teaching and learning gun ownership and responsibility.
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26879
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2016, 04:22:27 pm »
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Rocket T. Coyote

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Canis Latrans Rocketus
  • The Furry Model Rocketeer
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 1806
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2016, 11:49:04 am »
There was no National Guard at the time the Bill of Rights was written. "Militia" has been defined as all able-bodied citizens able to take up arms. "Well-regulated" means to be trained and skilled in the use of such.

As for confiscation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvcWePEsg94
"The coyote is a living, breathing allegory of Want. He is always hungry. He is always poor, out of luck, and friendless. The meanest creatures despise him. And even the fleas would dessert him for a velocipide."~Mark Twain
(Baps the old humorist.)

Offline Natura Wolf

  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Gun control.
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2016, 02:39:30 am »
There was no National Guard at the time the Bill of Rights was written. "Militia" has been defined as all able-bodied citizens able to take up arms. "Well-regulated" means to be trained and skilled in the use of such.

As for confiscation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvcWePEsg94

I watched the video, and I know some people feel it's makes them feel defenceless and vulnerable.  But I'm sorry, this tone of argument feels like a fear-mongering tactic of pushing extremes.  Particularly this video as it just constantly addresses the feeling of vulnerability as though a gun is the only means of protection, nothing about the police services, rise in crime, etc.

The last message this youtube says is 'gun owners in australia told me back in 1998 when I was there that the unforgettable images of their guns confiscated by the government should be a wake-up call to all of us to never to never surrender our rights, because once their gone you'll never get them back.'

A Final image of that video is a slide link of NRA asking people to join them.

This link is dated, that quote in particular is referencing a personal experience dated nearly two decades ago.  The link is biased because it's the NRA and the first thing this link says is that Clinton is making them the enemy so of course its going to manipulate its words to scare people.

Also the choice of quote Clinton says 'The Australian government as part of trying to clamp down on the availability of automatic weapons offered a good price for buying hundreds and thousands of guns...<Scene Change>...They believed and I think the evidence supports them that by offering to buy back those guns they were able to curtail the supply and to set a different standard for gun purchases in the future...<Scene Change>...So I think that's worth considering.'  I'm not entirely sure what the buy back system is but I would agree that availability of automatic weapons is and issue.

David Leyonhjelm The strongest voice for gun owners in Australia's parlament and a target shooter himself uses phrases like Phrases like 'were a nation of victims' and argues nothing has changed.

According to the Senate there has been no change only that it has gotten worse.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

I have found a gun control website that has done research based on the University of Sydney and funded by UNODA(united nations office for disarmament affairs (https://www.un.org/disarmament/UNSCAR/)).  In 1996 total number of gun deaths were 536, in 1998 total number of gun death were 312.  The information is two years out of date but according to 2014 gun deaths are 230.

Here is also a chart on the UK http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom:
This one starts at 247 in 1996 to 146 in 2011 (which was the same year as the London Riot)

Here is another chart for mass shootings http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-world-in-mass-shootings-1443905359
Although the highest fatality rate is in Norway by a single mass shooting killing 63, aside form the fact that this incident tallied from explosive considering he blew up Oslo’s government building, so that was a mass kill but not primarily from guns.  Also if you look at the per 100,000 citizens
There are:
Denmark - 5.084 million (2013)
Finland - 5.439 million (2013)
Switzerland - 8.081 million (2013)
United States - 318.9 million (2014)

In this context although the first countries have a higher fatality rate in the ratio, it's a single country compared to a union of 50 states so in that aspect it's not quite right.

I would consider 'Trolley problem' in these situations.  I don't believe there is a system or law at the moment, in the past or the future that has guaranteed complete and total safety, security and peace of their entire citizens, that includes gun control and freedom to bare arms.  I do believe however we are getting better and closer into forming a safer, more secure and a more diverse society, more so in some places than others.  I use the term 'Trolley problem' because crime will never go away.  One could argue having a gun at a near site location would lower your chances of getting kill, another would argue the restraint of accessibility would lower the chances of death, either side will still have death tolls.

I am starting to see a pattern arise though from people, that there is a distrust of their government, and the protection services whether it be experience, fear or like the customer pride.  What I am seeing though through my eyes that that people are wanting guns to be able to put the law in their hands and have their morals become their compass, for that reason I am against gun controls, because I do not believe at all that the majority of any citizen has the tranquillity of thought to not shoot to kill either deliberately or by accident.  The same argument can be said to some criminals to who are again acting out in distrust to the law and government to the point of being outside it, and yet again do not have a clear mind.

To people who support guns excluding people who have done this already, what in your eyes needs to change? Because the answer is not freedom of guns, so what form of control do you want and how? is it intellectual in a form of extensive training that must be attended fully and passed with unbiased judgement and agreement? is it medical in the form of character screening for behaviour that may result in violence, unstable moods or suspiciousness that may result in aggression and into violence? for myself I choose accessibility by removing the supplier, and for the argument of wanting to protect your family and friends, I say join the watchdog and connect with your community, that is a much wider net than a weapon can do, and if that is not enough for you, then join the police or armed forced.  If protection means allot to you then train for it, just own a gun does not mean you are protecting anyone.

Finally because I think I keep sucking myself into this debate.  This debate can go on forever with lobbing the endless digital supply of data and charts and trying to turn arguments back on each other.  So simply what do you want in regards to Gun violence, what is your ideal way of prevent gun violence and why, and finally how would you implement it so it would be effective in your view and would minimally (or preferably not) have holes that are exercised by the public.

@Kobuk - also I think COP means Constable On Patrol, least that is what I am getting on google, i think you said earlier that it meant citizen on patrol
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 02:50:02 am by Natura Wolf »