Author Topic: Gun control.  (Read 1212 times)

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Offline Kobuk

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Gun control.
« on: June 13, 2016, 09:13:23 am »
Another mass shooting in America has occured as described in this thread:
http://forums.furtopia.org/news-forum/40-50-killed-in-nightclub-terror-attack/

*sigh*   When will it end? Seems like hardly a day doesn't go by when somebody someplace in America is killing people for various reasons.  :P  IMO, America is the most violent country when it comes to gun crime/violence. Burglaries, Robberies, Bank holdups, Hostage situations, Carjackings, and so much more. But when we use them, whether for good or bad intentions, we often don't think of the consequences and ramifications of our actions that come afterwards. Seems to me the only thing most people care about is that a gun gives them protection. A gun gives them power. A gun can instill fear in your adversary. While that may be true for some things and/or some people or instances, there's another thing that a gun makes a person: When not used properly or in the wrong way, a gun makes you a killer.

It's true about that old phrase: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people.".  But apparently, our government and various authoritative agencies (Police, FBI, ATF, etc.) don't seem to understand this. For they keep establishing law after law after law, etc. to enforce more "gun control" on the American populace. While some laws, background checks, waiting lists, etc. may be necessary to keep certain individuals or groups from having firearms, too many laws and restrictions can have a detrimental effect and make the populace think the government is curtailing their Constitutional rights and freedoms, and that the government is "out to get them" so to speak. There needs to be a "balance" between owning and using a gun, and preventing guns from getting into the hands of the wrong people and having more gun violence. But where is this balance? How do we create it?

Where exactly does "gun control" lie? With the public or the government? How do we control the gun violence that is ravaging America?

IMO, gun control starts with the public. Once you have a gun in your hand, YOU control how that gun is used, where it is used, and whom or what it is used against. Control starts with learning about the gun. What it does, How it operates, What it should and should not be used for, etc.  When people buy, own, and use a gun, they need to learn about safety, take gun shooting classes, and above all, learn responsibility for owning and using a gun.

To give you an analogy, it's kinda like when you were a little kid playing with your toys. If you were playing with your toys badly or abusing them, your parents may have had to take them away from you until you learned how to play responsibly with them. The same could almost be said with guns. The United States Constitution gives Americans the right to bear arms. That is our constitutional right. We might have played with our "toys" (guns) responsibly during the early periods of America growing up. But as the years and decades wore on, we seemed to have lost responsibility for how we owned and used guns. And now we face the time where our parent (Federal Government) is shaking their finger at the public (Kids) and telling us that if we can't play with our toys responsibly, then they are going to take them away from us.........or at least make it harder for us to play with them.

As I said before, maybe "some" laws are necessary for gun control. But if we really want to have less gun control laws in this country and look better in the eyes of our parents (Federal Government), then we need to take it upon ourselves to act responsibly in how we own and use guns. By learning ourselves, and teaching and showing others how to safely handle guns, maybe we can get the Government to get off our backs and cut us a bit of slack, know what I mean? ;)

So in short, when it comes to gun control, I would be in favor of the following:
Mandatory gun safety/shooting classes regardless of what type of guns you have or how many. No exceptions to this rule.
Mandatory background checks.
Refusing gun sales to persons with histories/conditions of mental problems depending on the severeity of the condition.
Mandatory 6 month waiting period for immigrants to buy a gun. Especially a waiting period for those who come from the Middle East.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 12:46:40 pm by Kobuk »
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Offline Foxpup

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2016, 07:29:23 pm »
Mandatory 3 month waiting period for purchasing of assault style weapons.
Assault "style" weapons? Tell me again how the visual appearance of a weapon makes a difference. For reference, actual assault rifles are already illegal without a federal permit.

Mandatory 6 month waiting period for immigrants to buy a gun. Especially a waiting period for those who come from the Middle East.
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Offline Amducious

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2016, 08:29:36 pm »
^^^^

Exactly and the fact that just because something looks "scary" doesn't make it more powerful. It's like giving a knife a tactical look, and saying it's more sharp when a knife that's the same is no different.
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2016, 01:04:48 am »
Another mass shooting in America has occured as described in this thread:
http://forums.furtopia.org/news-forum/40-50-killed-in-nightclub-terror-attack/

*sigh*   When will it end? Seems like hardly a day doesn't go by when somebody someplace in America is killing people for various reasons.  :P  IMO, America is the most violent country when it comes to gun crime/violence. Burglaries, Robberies, Bank holdups, Hostage situations, Carjackings, and so much more.

Apologise Kobuk, when it comes to USA I know yourself as a citizen has more knowledge and experience on the matter.  But most other countries have a lower terrorism rate due to mass gun control, or rather not having a gun at all.

I know the whole expression of 'Guns don't kill people, people do' but no matter how many times that is said, and how true it is, it is equally true that 'the gun helps'.

I was watching a few of the news reports and it is quoted that 'The owner of the shooting range where Orlando shooter Omar Mateen bought the handgun and semi-automatic used in the deadly rampage over the weekend says he bought both weapons legally and passed a thorough background check.'
http://time.com/4367592/orlando-shooting-gun-store-owner/

Guns are never about protection, that is a delusional expression to cover the simple fact that it is about power. 

I mean 15 times apparently something like this has happened in America in recent times, I know this again is from the media and there is always suspicion there, but at the same time i'm sorry to say most gun shooting incidents are either expected in/near a war zone or in America.   Yet your defending guns like you'd defend a puppy.

In honesty however I don't know what America is going to do because you already have so many weapons and guns and no one is going to drop them because the law says so.  The right to bear arms is apparently an amendment right?  First two syllables spell amend meaning 'make minor changes to (a text, piece of legislation, etc.) in order to make it fairer or more accurate, or to reflect changing circumstances.'

I'm with Obama, how many people need to die while you defend saying the guns were innocent and it's the people, when both are guilty parties, one for the use and the other for the design.

The course of action comes from both the cooperation of the government and the citizens, especially since guns are everywhere in America legally so it's not like any change is going to be easy.  But simple fact is guns are designed to kill, and as far as people are concerned, it only takes something to tick them off, drugs, high levels of stress, discrimination, bullying/being bullied, financial bankruptcy, mental destabilisation, probably more.  But one garentee is no one anywhere can garentee that they would always and forever use their gun safety, responsibly and legally
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 01:09:18 am by Natura Wolf »

Offline Amducious

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2016, 06:39:35 am »

If America could develop a gun culture like Switzerland it would work. The crime rate is low there and guess what? They all own guns and are required to train with them.

http://people.duke.edu/~gnsmith/articles/myths.htm Also here's some good facts about why gun control doesn't work
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 06:43:51 am by Amducious »
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2016, 07:06:36 am »
Yeah I had a skim through.
Hunting is the same as killing, only difference is what you are targeting, and protection is the threat to wound or kill.  that leaves target practice.

Also ONE guy disclaims UK and Japan but only explains Japan not both, and some of the issues of Japan I daresay exist in USA.

Do you need to get shot before you see guns as a threat, cause other peoples deaths don't seem to work.  Guns don't just kill, they can kill multiply with great speed.  ratio of 1 guy to 50 deaths.

All your link specifies that America couldn't change to Switzerland or other foreign gun policies

Offline Amducious

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2016, 07:19:25 am »
Just the fact that gun control doesn't fix anything maybe some things. But the person who suffers the most from gun control is a law abiding citizen. The criminal can still get guns and the citizens have nothing to defend themselves with.

Also you can still buy supplies to make a bomb. A criminal is going to find any way to kill someone even if guns are completely banned. Chemical or biowarfare would kill more than guns.
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2016, 07:48:02 am »
Just the fact that gun control doesn't fix anything maybe some things. But the person who suffers the most from gun control is a law abiding citizen. The criminal can still get guns and the citizens have nothing to defend themselves with.

On behalf of the law abiding citizens of the UK I say no.  They hasn't been any gun crime to this extreme in UK for some time, EVEN THE LONDON RIOT didn't have that much gun use in it, with guns it would of been a blood shed.
Austerity, yes, gun crimes, no.

But if your argument that because your neighbour has one or someone else has one you should have on well then I would like a nuclear bomb, because others have one, it'll protect my family when i set it off and hide in my shelter far away form the explosion.

Also you can still buy supplies to make a bomb. A criminal is going to find any way to kill someone even if guns are completely banned. Chemical or biowarfare would kill more than guns.

You have to make it, it's presupplied nor legal.

To be honest if there is a rise in gun crimes in gun controlled areas its because other areas allow it.  How was it now when America sneezes the world feels the cold?  If you allow guns to go around willy nilly then anyone can get one, like drugs, like anything it only has to be legal somewhere for it to be spreadable, and with America having families with private arsenals well yeah it can impact the world.

But your argument, or at least one of them is you wanna hold a gun so you can look dangerous if you need to, shoot animals and maybe do some target practice as sports.  Whenever a shooting like this happens it's not just the people are forever dead, which they are btw, completely gone.  But it's then the family and friends who find out, it's then further people terrified that they have lost family and friends, then its the section of the region that suddenly doesn't feel safe, and then arguments only due to fears and anger of what has just happened.  All of this, REPEATEDLY, from mass murders caused by guns that were either legally or easily gained, because lets be honest here, when a gun is in every household, a gun is suddenly accessible, not just to anyone living there, but the theieves and muggers you preached you needed the gun for.  All of this from mass murders of gun crime.

And instead of having some decency or decorum for the people who have suffered throughout this world you just want to protect the guns because they are the ones will will suffer, some dead metallic object. 

Offline Foxpup

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2016, 07:51:06 am »
But gun crime, specifically, isn't the threat. The threat is criminals, who aren't actually helped by guns as much as you seem to think. Knives of all varieties are readily available (and how are you going to make dinner in a society where they aren't?), and a typical hardware store can supply all the parts and chemicals needed to build effective pipebombs. I'd advise against sourcing poisons from a hardware store, though; they only stock the less potent ones (though they're still useful for terrorists - noxious fumes are great for forcing the evacuation of entire buildings). But in case buying toxic chemicals will arouse suspicion, I know a great recipe for Molotov cocktails. These drinks have always been popular among the more rebellious crowd. Or if you want to keep things simple, try a good old baseball bat - it's America's national bludgeon! Really, who need guns to kill people when you've got all these options?

I'll tell you who: law-abiding citizens, who need to defend themselves with something a little less indiscriminate than bombs, and may be lacking the physical strength needed to effectively employ knives and clubs. Of all the weapons used by criminals, only guns can also be used to effectively defend against them. "God made men, Colt made them equal."
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2016, 07:56:56 am »
If thats the case then by God, when Donald Trump is elected, i'm sure you'll have all the guns you want, and be happy for it

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2016, 10:09:06 am »
Many people want a gun for protection, and it does provide a degree of
protection if you know how to use a gun, and protect your family with it.

Many people feel all they need to do is point and pull the trigger. People
need training and education to properly own and use a firearm. Otherwise
they are more likely to get in trouble, hurt them selves or those they love
than anything else.

People with murder in their heart will find a way to get a gun, and if not will find
another weapon to use.

The biggest problem I have with firearms owned by the average person is emotional
control. If one can't control their anger, should they really carry a firearem? It;s
impossible to sort all the problem people out. But screening people for mental disorders
and criminal activity should help a little. There is a way to make a trigger that only
works for the owner. But for some reason the governemtn doesn't approve their sale.
Those would make guns safer for home use. Or even the lives of police when the bad
guy grabs their gun.

There isn't any perfect solution, but we should try to make life safer where we can.
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Offline Amducious

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2016, 10:12:53 am »
Many people want a gun for protection, and it does provide a degree of
protection if you know how to use a gun, and protect your family with it.

Many people feel all they need to do is point and pull the trigger. People
need training and education to properly own and use a firearm. Otherwise
they are more likely to get in trouble, hurt them selves or those they love
than anything else.

People with murder in their heart will find a way to get a gun, and if not will find
another weapon to use.

The biggest problem I have with firearms owned by the average person is emotional
control. If one can't control their anger, should they really carry a firearem? It;s
impossible to sort all the problem people out. But screening people for mental disorders
and criminal activity should help a little. There is a way to make a trigger that only
works for the owner. But for some reason the governemtn doesn't approve their sale.
Those would make guns safer for home use. Or even the lives of police when the bad
guy grabs their gun.

There isn't any perfect solution, but we should try to make life safer where we can.

^i agree
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Offline T-Yoshi45

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 11:10:43 am »
Frankly today i already find gun control to be far too restrictive (Least in my state) But overall, I feel like like the recent shooting will become yet another anti-gun cattle call. These people blame an inanimate object and want to ban them because the people behind them thus punishing all for the actions of a few. The right to self-defense in undebatable in my opinion, the right to own a gun is imperative to that right. They should be putting more an emphasis on gun education and gun safety rather than trying to further choke the rights of the law-abiding citizen cause of a handful of crazies. Proper training, armed guards for these places, mental health evaluations and checks. Those things might actually do some good. Not placing another 'assault' weapons ban or more registration of ammo. I don't condone gun control but i do support Gun Safety.

Plus one odd trend i've noticed...notice where these shootings are taking place? Churches, nightclubs, movie theaters...usually places with no gun policies in place.

And Kobuk i could hardly agree more 'Guns don't kill people, people do.' cause i've seen that when you take one weapon away from a person they find another, New York City pretty much banned gun ownership and then there was a spike in the use of machetes and Sen. Tony Avella of Queens wanted to place a ban on machetes. Luckily it did fail but still...I could see that sort of thing turning into a ridiculous cycle to where in ten years time you'd need a licence to own a kitchen knife.

Take away one weapon, the criminal finds another. While gun control may sound good to some, all i've seen it do is make a criminal of the common don.

http://www.nysapls.org/news/217762/Proposed-legislation-to-ban-machetes-in-NYS.htm (In case anyone wanted to view this...thing)


Plus Natura, as good of a person i think you are...
On behalf of the law abiding citizens of the UK I say no.  They hasn't been any gun crime to this extreme in UK for some time, EVEN THE LONDON RIOT didn't have that much gun use in it, with guns it would of been a blood shed.
Austerity, yes, gun crimes, no.

Sure you can say there was no to little gun crime but it's coming off a bit 'holier than thou' especially accounting for the climbs in other crimes like sexual offenses by 37% in 2015 or the increase in knife violence by 13% or the increase of sexual assault with knives by 28% in that same year.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33547806 (hopefully this link works)

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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2016, 11:12:20 am »
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2016, 03:29:31 pm »
Frankly today i already find gun control to be far too restrictive (Least in my state) But overall, I feel like like the recent shooting will become yet another anti-gun cattle call. These people blame an inanimate object and want to ban them because the people behind them thus punishing all for the actions of a few. The right to self-defense in undebatable in my opinion, the right to own a gun is imperative to that right. They should be putting more an emphasis on gun education and gun safety rather than trying to further choke the rights of the law-abiding citizen cause of a handful of crazies. Proper training, armed guards for these places, mental health evaluations and checks. Those things might actually do some good. Not placing another 'assault' weapons ban or more registration of ammo. I don't condone gun control but i do support Gun Safety.

Plus one odd trend i've noticed...notice where these shootings are taking place? Churches, nightclubs, movie theaters...usually places with no gun policies in place.

And Kobuk i could hardly agree more 'Guns don't kill people, people do.' cause i've seen that when you take one weapon away from a person they find another, New York City pretty much banned gun ownership and then there was a spike in the use of machetes and Sen. Tony Avella of Queens wanted to place a ban on machetes. Luckily it did fail but still...I could see that sort of thing turning into a ridiculous cycle to where in ten years time you'd need a licence to own a kitchen knife.

Take away one weapon, the criminal finds another. While gun control may sound good to some, all i've seen it do is make a criminal of the common don.

http://www.nysapls.org/news/217762/Proposed-legislation-to-ban-machetes-in-NYS.htm (In case anyone wanted to view this...thing)


Plus Natura, as good of a person i think you are...
On behalf of the law abiding citizens of the UK I say no.  They hasn't been any gun crime to this extreme in UK for some time, EVEN THE LONDON RIOT didn't have that much gun use in it, with guns it would of been a blood shed.
Austerity, yes, gun crimes, no.

Sure you can say there was no to little gun crime but it's coming off a bit 'holier than thou' especially accounting for the climbs in other crimes like sexual offenses by 37% in 2015 or the increase in knife violence by 13% or the increase of sexual assault with knives by 28% in that same year.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33547806 (hopefully this link works)

So let me get this straight

"Plus one odd trend i've noticed...notice where these shootings are taking place? Churches, nightclubs, movie theaters...usually places with no gun policies in place."
You are suggesting guns should be everywhere because if there is ever a place where a gun may n ot be there then thats the problem because the gun isn't there.  Is thsi to include locker rooms, swimming pools, childrens conserts.  hell Why not allow guns in planes just incase.

Argue infinate times 'Guns don't kill people, people do' Gun will ALWAYS help every single flipping time.

"I could see that sort of thing turning into a ridiculous cycle to where in ten years time you'd need a licence to own a kitchen knife."  This is partially true in the UK, you cannot hold glass bottles or knives in open grounds, it's illegal.  But it doesn't impact peoples lives.

Yes, there is knife crime in the UK, there is crime everywhere, having a weapon does not justify self-defence, it's power greedy disghusting power that slimey scumming twitts cling to because they think guns are cool and deserving.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 03:53:38 pm by Natura Wolf »

Offline Foxpup

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2016, 07:53:08 pm »
You are suggesting guns should be everywhere because if there is ever a place where a gun may n ot be there then thats the problem because the gun isn't there.
Correct. In case you didn't already know, criminals break laws. That includes bringing guns to "gun-free zones". By definition, "gun-free zones" only apply to law-abiding citizens. Law-abiding citizens not having guns when criminals do is in fact a problem.

Argue infinate times 'Guns don't kill people, people do' Gun will ALWAYS help every single flipping time.
I already refuted this. If you want to kill a lot of people, bombs and chemical weapons beat guns hands down. The people who guns help the most are the people who don't want to kill people.

Yes, there is knife crime in the UK, there is crime everywhere, having a weapon does not justify self-defence,
I don't even? Are you saying if someone attacks you with a knife, you are not justified in stopping that person from killing you? If you are, then how exactly are going to do that without a weapon of your own? And if you aren't, you're saying a murderer's life is worth more than your own, and I don't see any point arguing with that.

it's power greedy disghusting power that slimey scumming twitts cling to because they think guns are cool and deserving.
If you spend less time hurling insults and more time reading, you'll see nobody thinks anything like that.
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2016, 12:49:24 am »
Correct. In case you didn't already know, criminals break laws. That includes bringing guns to "gun-free zones". By definition, "gun-free zones" only apply to law-abiding citizens. Law-abiding citizens not having guns when criminals do is in fact a problem.

Yes indeed Criminals break laws.  Yes criminals having guns is a problem, criminals recieving guns legally is a bigger problem.  America arming their own terrorist.  Having guns in nightclubs does not resolve this problem.  Firstly it's a place where drinks (and drugs) happen to the point people are not of sound mind so why have weapons in the hands of people without sound minds?  I'm sorry the answer is not the populate the world with guns, espeically as according to Kobuk's website the ratio of gun per person is by the looks of it the highest in the world.

I already refuted this. If you want to kill a lot of people, bombs and chemical weapons beat guns hands down. The people who guns help the most are the people who don't want to kill people.
Look if you want someone dead there are many means of doing it, and yes bombs and chemicals included, but hell Chemicals don't kill people, people do, same for bombs, this saying can also be applied to knives, tanks, sniper rifles, cars.  So yeah explosives don't kill people, people do....But it still helps.

I don't even? Are you saying if someone attacks you with a knife, you are not justified in stopping that person from killing you? If you are, then how exactly are going to do that without a weapon of your own? And if you aren't, you're saying a murderer's life is worth more than your own, and I don't see any point arguing with that.

You don't even what?  Are you saying the only way I can defend myself is a gun, cause well that thinking is stupid on a few scales.  The first is if I am allowed to have a gun, then the guy who currently has a knife is would of had a gun instead of a knife aimed at me, and to be honest me having a gun is going to do nothing, because as the attack is going to be unprovoked his will be out and targetted on me already, and now I am stuck with my arms up crapping myself, and my gun has done jack.  With a knife, yeah its a knife, which is a close combat item, there are so many options that I can do.  Chances are I'll probably panic because most citizens are not used to being threatened with a knife, but point being the knife has limitations, and in that case I would promote self-defense classes because there are ways of disarming an opponent.  Not so much if he has a ranged item.  But by the sounds of your post you generally believe that only guns will save you so hears a UK story for you.

A few incidents like this has happened but on particular.  A farmer was burgled into his house by some thieves.  The farmer grabs his rifled and threatens them away, then stands outside while one runs and shoots him straight into the head, instant death.  This has been documented a few times including this article below
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11044022/Tony-Martin-15-years-on-I-dont-want-to-go-back-there-because-it-could-happen-again.html

Guns is about power, not defense, that is a choice.  Power is a garentee because you get a choice, or at least you feel you do.  The gentleman above believe he was entitled to kill that person because he didn't want to stand there and get hurt, as though those are the only options, but someone died, and arguable not for justice but revenge on breaking the mans house.

At anycase it does not work for the citizens of UK.

If you spend less time hurling insults and more time reading, you'll see nobody thinks anything like that.
I have tried being fair, I've looked at all the links including the most recent one Kobuk posted.  Point is no mind is being swayed, I am for gun control and you are not.

But I disagree, this is a mixture for some to believe that being a gun is being a real man, or patriotich, and for others to believe that they are the law and can apply it how they see fit.

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2016, 01:07:46 am »
Look we're not going to agree by the sounds of it.  But I'm sorry but any extremism is wrong including mass gun spread.

Its flippin' tiring to hear this crap about how guns could of saves then and guns should be everywhere because its people that's the problem.  that is true people are a problem so don't give them all weapons.  I don't think telling any victims. to this crime 'a gun would of saves them' would been seen as correct.

But when debated, and I have listened and read.  but this lofty argument of non gun places suffer most, UK and how it doesn't count for other nations with gun control because again lofty reasons scrambled from opinioned internet or that one time in band camp, and gun controlled areas are lies and that flippin' quote that is always defended because its catchy like wild fire.

Information here is simply about making guns look like the right answer not that they are the right answer.

With that I'm out. 

Offline Kobuk

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2016, 08:55:43 am »
I had to do some thinking lately. I think all assault style weapons such as M-16's, AK-47's, or any other similar assault type weapon should be 100% banned from public sale/use. Seriously, who the hell is going to need that much firepower? For what? There's no point or reason to it. The only people who should have that kind of firepower are the Police and the Military. Nobody else. What is it about assault type weapons that makes people want one? Is it the "Oh wow, look at that cool gun! That is so awesome. It's got a lot of firepower. If the police and military have them, then I want one too."    If the only reasons people want an assault type weapon are because it's "cool" and it shoots a lot of ammo, etc., then I feel your reasons are misplaced.  :P  Assault type weapons IMO do not belong in the house nor do they belong on the streets. Period.


As I've probably said a little bit in my opening post in this thread, the best "gun control" may not actually be creating more restrictive laws, but by "educating" ourselves and the rest of the public on how to properly handle and use guns. It's not the gun itself that is out of control. It's us, the "human animal" that is out of control because we are like kids who have been given this brand new toy to play with and instead of playing with it responsibly, we are instead abusing it. Therefore, part of the solution to gun control in America should be more tougher background checks, and mandatory gun safety/shooting classes.


We just can't seem to keep our emotions in check. Every time something bothers somebody, it's like we have to threaten them with a gun or something else. Boss at work getting you down? Get a gun. Neighbor steals your garden hose. Get a gun. Another person grabbed your parking space. Get a gun.
Get where I'm going with this? Hardly a day doesn't go by when I haven't read on the news where somebody uses a gun to get back at another person. And all for the stupidest of reasons.  :o It's like people think/feel that a gun will solve all their problems.......or at least some of them. Guns are not the solution to everything. They will not solve your problems. They will only make them worse.


In short, we don't need more gun control in America. We need more "people control".
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Offline Old Rabbit

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2016, 09:38:53 am »
It seems the media, and those in politics only talk about gun violence. Those who
really wish to kill a lot of people use explosives, the guns are mostly for shooting into
crowds and targeted individuals. Of course to kill very many with a gun there must be
a crowd, because people will immedialy scatter and hide. That's why they attack crowds,
and to do so it must be planned, and with a plan they can gather most anything needed in
spite of laws. Fortunately most plans fail due to mistakes. Or mass killings would be
even more common.

Explosives or chemicals require much more knowledge to successfully use without killing
or injuring the person planning to use them.

When all those little school kids were shot, a man in China killed 30 with a knife. and
my gf in Brazil said a gunman killed several school kids with  a gun in her country. The
media ignored the mass killer with a knife. A high school kid attacked several classmates
with a knife. The media covered it, but made much less of it than they would have
if it had been with a gun.

Mass killings are not only a US problem, it's a human problem. Be it guns, knives, explosives,
chemicals, gas or fire. We need to deal with the reason it happens, becasue people do kill
people with anything they can get their dirty hands on. Guns only make it easier.


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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2016, 02:40:35 pm »
I had to do some thinking lately. I think all assault style weapons such as M-16's, AK-47's, or any other similar assault type weapon should be 100% banned from public sale/use. Seriously, who the hell is going to need that much firepower? For what? There's no point or reason to it. The only people who should have that kind of firepower are the Police and the Military. Nobody else. What is it about assault type weapons that makes people want one? Is it the "Oh wow, look at that cool gun! That is so awesome. It's got a lot of firepower. If the police and military have them, then I want one too."    If the only reasons people want an assault type weapon are because it's "cool" and it shoots a lot of ammo, etc., then I feel your reasons are misplaced.  :P  Assault type weapons IMO do not belong in the house nor do they belong on the streets. Period.


As I've probably said a little bit in my opening post in this thread, the best "gun control" may not actually be creating more restrictive laws, but by "educating" ourselves and the rest of the public on how to properly handle and use guns. It's not the gun itself that is out of control. It's us, the "human animal" that is out of control because we are like kids who have been given this brand new toy to play with and instead of playing with it responsibly, we are instead abusing it. Therefore, part of the solution to gun control in America should be more tougher background checks, and mandatory gun safety/shooting classes.


We just can't seem to keep our emotions in check. Every time something bothers somebody, it's like we have to threaten them with a gun or something else. Boss at work getting you down? Get a gun. Neighbor steals your garden hose. Get a gun. Another person grabbed your parking space. Get a gun.
Get where I'm going with this? Hardly a day doesn't go by when I haven't read on the news where somebody uses a gun to get back at another person. And all for the stupidest of reasons.  :o It's like people think/feel that a gun will solve all their problems.......or at least some of them. Guns are not the solution to everything. They will not solve your problems. They will only make them worse.


In short, we don't need more gun control in America. We need more "people control".


Although I disagree with the outcome of your thought process, I do agree and respect the thought process and can understand where you are coming from, and to be honest I'm not a US citizen so I can ever really ascertain what the best course of action is for America other than as an outside opinion, so that said perhaps you are correct.

I would like to pass a quote that I find interesting about the relationship between citizens and the law, and for the most part I support this quote, it is from an anime, but I still think the statement is worth entertaining in thought.

'The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. People have always detested evil and sought out a righteous way of living. Their feelings, the accumulation of those peoples feelings are the law. They're neither the provisions, nor the system. They're the fragile and irreplaceable feelings that everyone carries in their hearts.'

Offline Kobuk

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2016, 04:02:14 pm »
Know what the best deterrent is against gun violence? While some people may think it's having and using a gun, that is only part of the equation. While that may (or may not) work in some situations and instances, the best tools are the ones which we carry and use with us every day: Our eyesight and our hearing.

Hasn't it always been said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance? While the government and local agencies can help to thwart various gun violence in America, it comes down to the American public to be vigilant about the people, places, and things around them. Your eyes and ears are the first line of defense. What you see and hear and report to the authorities can be just as much a deterrent to crime as using a gun. I'm not saying that we should be a bunch of tattle-talers and spy on everything and everyone around us and report that to the authorities. But I think we need to be more aware of our surroundings and the people around us. If something looks suspicious and out of place or if somebody is acting strangely to the point where a crime may be committed, then shouldn't we "step up to the plate" so to speak and do something about it? Waiting too long to report something and/or take action just gives the criminals more incentive to continue with whatever actions they are doing and/or to get away.

If I'm not too mistaken, didn't there used to be an acronym for the word "Cop"? Didn't it stand for:
CITIZENS
ON
PATROL
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Offline Foxpup

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2016, 08:41:23 pm »
Guns is about power, not defense, that is a choice.  Power is a garentee because you get a choice, or at least you feel you do.
Gun are indeed about power, the power to decide who lives and who dies, and certainly people who are too emotionally immature to handle such power shouldn't use them. If you really fear you will just stand there and crap yourself because you can't make that decision, fine, but don't dare presume to tell other people how they can handle a life or death situation.

Point is no mind is being swayed, I am for gun control and you are not.
At least I now know why you are anti-gun, though I already had my suspicions.



I think all assault style weapons such as M-16's, AK-47's, or any other similar assault type weapon should be 100% banned from public sale/use. Seriously, who the hell is going to need that much firepower?
Kobuk, did you just ignore the first two replies in this thread or do you really not know the difference between a style of weapon and a type of weapon? The M-16 and AK-47 are not assault "style" weapons; they are actual assault rifles. As I explained before in another thread, an assault rifle is one which is selectable between semi-automatic (fire one bullet at a time, same as any other repeating firearm) and fully automatic (hold down trigger to spray bullets constantly, like a machine gun) modes. As you say, not many people really need such firepower, which is why you need a federal permit to buy or sell one (same as machine guns and grenade launchers and the like).

Assault "style" weapons, as you call them, are just non-assault weapons painted black or otherwise made to look "scary". The classic example, the Colt AR-15, is really just a hunting rifle (comparable to the Ruger Mini-14) made to look like an M-16. It is not actually an M-16, and is not capable of fully-automatic firing. If you're still confused, we should talk about banning racing stripes because they make cars go faster.
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2016, 08:59:02 pm »
Quote
Kobuk, did you just ignore the first two replies in this thread or do you really not know the difference between a style of weapon and a type of weapon? The M-16 and AK-47 are not assault "style" weapons; they are actual assault rifles. As I explained before in another thread, an assault rifle is one which is selectable between semi-automatic (fire one bullet at a time, same as any other repeating firearm) and fully automatic (hold down trigger to spray bullets constantly, like a machine gun) modes. As you say, not many people really need such firepower, which is why you need a federal permit to buy or sell one (same as machine guns and grenade launchers and the like).

Regardless of what you or I call guns, the point and fact is this: assault weapons DO NOT need to be on the streets or in homes, etc.  They're too powerful and too dangerous. Period.



Quote
Guns is about power, not defense, that is a choice.  Power is a garentee because you get a choice, or at least you feel you do.

Quote
Gun are indeed about power, the power to decide who lives and who dies,

I'd love to reply to the above two quotes, but it's late and I'm heading off to bed. Maybe tomorrow I'll reply if I can.
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Offline Literate Lycan

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Re: Gun control.
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2016, 10:53:31 pm »
I have heretofore stayed out of the whole gun control debate simply because it's too volatile. I'm breaking my own rule by posting this, but in light of Orlando and other events I'm going to state my beliefs  on the subject. Then I will step back and let the rest of you debate what I set forth.

I agree with Kobuk in that gun control starts with gun owners. If "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true then it necessarily follows that certain people should never be allowed to touch a firearm.

1.  Mandatory FEDERAL background checks for all firearm purchases. No exceptions. If you have been convicted of a felony, violent crime, domestic abuse, and certain other classes of crimes, you are prohibited from buying a gun.
2.  Mandatory completion of gun safety classes before purchasing a gun. I dislike the NRA for many reasons but the NRA has a top-notch safety program. You must pass that program successfully before you can buy a gun. You must be recertified regularly, like a driver's license. Mandatory Federal registration of all certifications. Your certification is valid only for a certain class of firearm. Want to buy a different type of gun? Take the class.
3.  Firearm purchases require fingerprints and photographs to be immediately uploaded to a Federal database. All firearm serial numbers are recorded at the point of sale and transmitted online to the database.
4.  No gun-show loophole. Sales at gun shows must comply with the same rules as those at gun stores.
5.  Private sales must be reported within 5 business days. Fingerprints and serial numbers required.
6.  Ownership is serious responsibility. You must store your firearms and ammunition in a secure location. Failure to do so, if it results in an accidental shooting, is a Federal felony with mandatory prison time.
7.  Thefts are to be reported immediately.
8.  Possession of an unregistered firearm is a Federal felony. Use of an unregistered firearm in a crime is a mandatory 10-year sentence.
9.  Private ownership of assault-style weaponry is forbidden.
10. Gun store  owners have the right to refuse to sell to anyone they consider trouble. Range masters have the right to ban anyone whose behavior is suspect. Both have access to a 24/7/365 contact point with the ATF or other Federal law enforcement authority.


Will this stop all gun crime? No, but hopefully it will reduce it. Even a 5% reduction will save hundreds of lives. What rarely enters the discussion of gun control are the thousands who are injured or killed in this country due to accidental and largely preventable shootings. Most gun owners are responsible and conscientious. Some are very negligent. How often do we read about a death resulting from someone's careless handling of a gun? A few days before Orlando a toddler in the back seat of a car picked up a loaded gun which had slid out from underneath a car seat, pulled the trigger, and killed his mother sitting in the front seat. That mother would be alive if the gun--which belonged to the mother's boyfriend--had been secured in a locked case. A friend of mine, an NRA member and avid gun owner, refused to allow his kid to go to a neighbor's house because that neighbor did not properly secure his firearms.

A few days ago there was an  opinion piece in either Forbes or Fortune which took a more literal application of the "well-regulated" phrase in the Second Amendment. The writer proposed that firearm owners become a part of that well-regulated militia and be required to join the National Guard. In the NG one would be trained and licensed in the proper ownership of guns. Not a bad idea, I think.

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