Author Topic: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?  (Read 23784 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 26924
Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« on: December 19, 2012, 11:44:21 am »
As all of us are aware, Several days ago, a 20 year old walked into an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. and shot to death 20 children and 6 adults, including his own mother and himself. Reports indicated he carried 2 handguns and an assault rifle, all belonging to his mother.

Now major news outlets and various politicians as well as the public are calling for more gun control.

What can or should be done, if anything, to curb the amount of gun violence? Should gun control be more stricter? If so, then how?
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline phoenixwolf

  • Jr. Member
  • ranger wolf!
  • **
  • Male
  • Posts: 59
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 07:31:14 pm »
Thats a really hard question because if sombody wants a gun in my country they get a licence but gun crime still happens because criminals mostly use stolen guns.

Offline Avor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 504
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 01:47:02 am »
The plan.

-Limit what kind of a weapons a person can legaly own, operate and/or carry bassed on licences that require significgan tests of profidiency maturity.

- Strict laws about weapon and ammo storarge.

- No guns for criminals, mentaly retarded and mental unstable.



People will always kill each other, but that's no reason to make it hardeer for them.




Offline McMajik

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Variable
  • Silly Majik tried to do magic, now it's a birdy.
  • *****
  • Posts: 2916
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 03:35:41 am »
Thats a really hard question because if sombody wants a gun in my country they get a licence but gun crime still happens because criminals mostly use stolen guns.

This! If only the criminals followed the rules and didn't take things that belong to other people/they aren't allowed to have! D:

Offline Narei Mooncatt

  • Hero Member
  • Knight of the Road
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 4119
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 07:10:33 am »
I think that emotions are way too high right now for the general public to legitimately deal with this, but they still insist on voicing those emotional opinions to lawmakers, who are in turn pressured to make (most likely) new laws that may not even work.

I'm sure there could be some changes made, but I don't think I'd go with anything like an "assault weapons ban". I put that in quotes because in reality, any gun, knife, club, and rock could be an assault weapon, which shows you how much our government knows. I'm also of the belief that if criminals know that law abiding citizens are unable to adequately arm themselves, then they will be able to more easily commit crimes. All they need to do is find someone weaker than them and they essentially win. I've heard of studies from other developed countries (England specifically years ago) that have very restrictive gun laws that make it hard for anyone to legally own one and violent crimes are still getting out of control.

When it comes to people like those doing the mass shootings, all they will do is find other ways to do it. Remember, Timmothy McVey (SP?) blew up that federal building in Oklahoma City with a rental truck and fertilizer. Both easily attainable to anyone, even those with suspicious backgrounds that would prevent them from passing the background check for a gun. Should we ban the sale of those items now?

I think this is largely a cultural issue with several contributing factors. Current gun laws that restrict where you can carry, parents not paying attention to what their kids are playing on the computer and disciplining them when they act up (also largely thanks to government not allowing them to do so properly IMHO), not getting proper treatment for mental issues, and a general "everyone is special" mentality that we've been taught lately. Imposing more gun laws won't fix any of those underlying issues and these people will still come out of the woodworks here and there regardless. Unfortunately, as with any major issue, no one wants to do what is needed because it's [whiney]toooo haaaarrrrddd[/whiney]. Instead they want government to pass some law that doesn't address the root cause of the issues so they can have an easy false sense of security.
I've got a 53' tail. Truck driver by trade, professional tourist by choice.

Offline redyoshi49q

  • Species: (*please see above*)
  • Avatar from Dexcat's MFF 2013 Photoshoot
  • *
  • Male
  • Posts: 2071
    • Enigma Cipher (software project)
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 09:49:42 am »
One thing that will soon complicate gun policy is 3D printing.  3D printing, for those who don't know, is a developing technology that is capable of taking a wide variety of base materials (some accept plastic, metal, and other physical materials; others used in the medical industry accept cell cultures and biological materials) and assembling them into a physical form through arbitrary digital schematics.  It's only somewhat available right now, but it's already capable of printing functional guns several functional parts of a gun (*edited, see Foxpup's post below*).

Given its extreme utility for the general public (the technology will eventually be able to produce a significant portion of things that mass production produces today), I suspect the technology of 3D printing will become widespread within 5-15 years.  A tangential consequence of that is that it would be about as easy for the average family to acquire a gun as it would be for them to acquire a coffee mug once that happens.  This would obsolete many of the gun policies in existence today, especially those which operate by hindering or tying conditions to the distribution of guns.  Unfortunately, making a new policy with respect to guns that would safeguard both rights and public safety in such an environment would be tremendously difficult; it would make the issue of gun control today look considerably less complex in comparison.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 08:37:47 pm by redyoshi49q »
"Perfect normality is impossible.  Be unique!"
-- redyoshi49q




^ (click) Puzzle game!

Offline Aakosir

  • Hero Member
  • In Vino Veritas
  • *****
  • Female
  • Posts: 510
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 10:09:37 am »
The only thing that I have been saying is that there should be a mental exam before you are allowed to buy a gun. Have the state police conduct it and give you a certificate that says you are allowed to purchase a gun. If you do not present this to a gun shop then you are not allowed to buy a gun. Simple, yes?

However! In the latest case the gun was not his, but his mother's. So even if she was deemed stable enough to have a weapon her son would not have been and he could have gotten his hands on it anyways. So then we need to look at this and take it even farther. Perhaps an entire family should be examined and if one person fails then that family should not be able to own, because of this special case. Or your children must be at least 18, in order for a parent to own a gun, which I personally would not agree to since my reason to own a weapon is to protect my family. It's way too involved to even start on, really. And flat out banning guns will do more harm than good.

But there will always be ways around restrictions. How many bombings have there been? With home made bombs? More than a few, yet those chemicals are still available for purchase. Knives, kitchen knives, can kill, yet they are in every home goods store. Crossbows, compound hunting bows, BB guns, paintball guns (with frozen paint and high velocity) can kill! There is no way to completely protect others from those who wish to do harm. Look at the criminals in prison. How many have created shanks out of the most trivial everyday items? There was one who made a spear out of paper and a shank from a toothbrush! And they both did a good amount of damage. They get their hands on razor blades somehow. They are incredibly resourceful. If a person wants to kill another they will, no matter the means.

"I'm also of the belief that if criminals know that law abiding citizens are unable to adequately arm themselves, then they will be able to more easily commit crimes. All they need to do is find someone weaker than them and they essentially win."

I completely agree with this statement from Narei. What do these lawmakers think they are doing by putting so many restrictions on weapons? They are only endangering us law abiding citizens even more! It is very frustrating when you hear people who think banning all guns will solve all the problems... Because it simply will only create easier targets for criminals. Why not just hand them all of our money?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 10:12:32 am by Aakosir »
My FA

I come and I go

Offline Mylo

  • *
  • Posts: 4761
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 11:39:11 am »
Did you all here about the school attack in China that happened on the same day as the Connecticut shootings? Those kids were all very young as well and more than 20 people were stabbed. The difference between this and Connecticut? No one was stabbed fatally.

Offline Aakosir

  • Hero Member
  • In Vino Veritas
  • *****
  • Female
  • Posts: 510
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 12:33:19 pm »
Did you all here about the school attack in China that happened on the same day as the Connecticut shootings? Those kids were all very young as well and more than 20 people were stabbed. The difference between this and Connecticut? No one was stabbed fatally.

No. The difference is that it's America and we focus on the bad that happens in our own country... We heard about the tsunami last year, but then it went quiet. We are STILL hearing about hurricane Sandy. Plus, it is the news stations. They have their own agenda and FOX tends to like to stir the political pot even more.

Also, here is a site with shootings and bombings in schools in the U.S. This particular page is for 2009 to 2010. Why didn't we hear about any of these incidents? Because there were no mass casualties. There were guns involved, but they weren't "tragedies" in the eyes of the news. Plus, just recently the second amendment has come under heavy attack by anti gun people. Two years ago it was not this bad.
My FA

I come and I go

Offline Mylo

  • *
  • Posts: 4761
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 01:23:03 pm »
There is no doubt that the media has great swaying influence on the American public, but that is not the debate right now.

The point I was making was that, yes, if guns were banned that would not stop these kinds of attacks. However, the success rate of these attacks could be quelled. I agree with what you said about having a complete background check (look up what they do in Japan). But automatic, even semiautomatic weapons...all you have to do is pull a trigger. It's too easy.

Offline Foxpup

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Cyborg Fox
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 1163
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 03:28:06 pm »
One thing that will soon complicate gun policy is 3D printing.  3D printing, for those who don't know, is a developing technology that is capable of taking a wide variety of base materials (some accept plastic, metal, and other physical materials; others used in the medical industry accept cell cultures and biological materials) and assembling them into a physical form through arbitrary digital schematics.  It's only somewhat available right now, but it's already capable of printing functional guns.
Actually, it's not even close. No 3D printer currently available is capable of processing materials strong enough to withstand the heat and pressure of a gunshot, so only a few gun parts can be made this way (in particular, the barrel and upper receiver and a few other parts can't be made with a 3D printer). The rest of the gun's components have to be obtained separately, however, in America at least, there are currently no restrictions on the sale of most gun parts. You can print the frame of a gun, then just buy the parts you can't print. You never have to show that you legally own the gun you're buying parts for. :o

Of course, eventually 3D printing will be able to produce the entire gun, but given the current state of the technology, this "loophole" could easily be closed right now.
“Hmm... They have the Internet on computers now.” - Homer Simpson

“Art doesn't work without pain. Art exists for compensating pain.” - Till Lindemann

“There's a fine line between sayings that make sense.” - Too Much Coffee Man

Offline redyoshi49q

  • Species: (*please see above*)
  • Avatar from Dexcat's MFF 2013 Photoshoot
  • *
  • Male
  • Posts: 2071
    • Enigma Cipher (software project)
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2012, 08:38:02 pm »
Actually, it's not even close. No 3D printer currently available is capable of processing materials strong enough to withstand the heat and pressure of a gunshot, so only a few gun parts can be made this way (in particular, the barrel and upper receiver and a few other parts can't be made with a 3D printer).

(*rereads the article he read before his previous post, then facepalms*) Yeah, you're right.  It turns out I read the article too quickly and missed the critical word "parts" and/or falsely assumed that if you could print parts for a gun, you could print all of the parts for a gun.  I edited my post accordingly; thanks for the erratum.
"Perfect normality is impossible.  Be unique!"
-- redyoshi49q




^ (click) Puzzle game!

Offline Aakosir

  • Hero Member
  • In Vino Veritas
  • *****
  • Female
  • Posts: 510
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2012, 12:19:28 pm »
The point I was making was that, yes, if guns were banned that would not stop these kinds of attacks. However, the success rate of these attacks could be quelled. I agree with what you said about having a complete background check (look up what they do in Japan). But automatic, even semiautomatic weapons...all you have to do is pull a trigger. It's too easy.

That's the thing about criminals. They have a twisted mind and it will always be too easy for them. They are some of the most ingenious people. They will make a weapon out of anything they can get their hands on, no matter if we supply the materials or not. And it is really simple, if you understand the mechanics of a gun, to switch it from semi automatic to automatic. We could destroy all weapons, knives, bows, guns, and they would still find a way to kill. Here is a list of 25 ways to kill with barehands . I actually know about most of these. A hit to the temple, throat, and nose are very easy during a fight. The point is, it is very easy to kill an opponent even without a weapon of any sort.
My FA

I come and I go

Offline Mylo

  • *
  • Posts: 4761
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2012, 01:07:59 pm »
That's the thing about criminals. They have a twisted mind and it will always be too easy for them. They are some of the most ingenious people. They will make a weapon out of anything they can get their hands on, no matter if we supply the materials or not. And it is really simple, if you understand the mechanics of a gun, to switch it from semi automatic to automatic. We could destroy all weapons, knives, bows, guns, and they would still find a way to kill. Here is a list of 25 ways to kill with barehands . I actually know about most of these. A hit to the temple, throat, and nose are very easy during a fight. The point is, it is very easy to kill an opponent even without a weapon of any sort.

Yes that's true, but I'm going to bring up the example in China again. China has strict gun laws, and the criminal still found a way to attack a school. However, no one was fatally stabbed.




Offline McMajik

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Variable
  • Silly Majik tried to do magic, now it's a birdy.
  • *****
  • Posts: 2916
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2012, 01:34:58 pm »
They are some of the most ingenious people. They will make a weapon out of anything they can get their hands on, no matter if we supply the materials or not. And it is really simple, if you understand the mechanics of a gun, to switch it from semi automatic to automatic. We could destroy all weapons, knives, bows, guns, and they would still find a way to kill.

That's making an awful lot of assumptions.


"They are some of the most ingenious people"
Really? What's your basis for saying that? I imagine that may well be true for a few, but the vast majority are ~not~ some of the most ingenious people. XD

"They will make a weapon out of anything they can get their hands on, no matter if we supply the materials or not."
Assuming they have the knowledge and skills to, it would still in most cases be nowhere near as effective as a manufactured firearm. In fact, in first world countries I don't think I've ever heard of killing sprees with improvised weapons because the perpetrator couldn't get a hold of any real guns.

"And it is really simple, if you understand the mechanics of a gun, to switch it from semi automatic to automatic."
~If~ you understand the mechanics of a gun, which I'm guessing most don't. Besides which, if Semi Automatic guns were also banned or more restricted, that point would make little difference.

"We could destroy all weapons, knives, bows, guns, and they would still find a way to kill."
No, they wouldn't. I imagine only a portion would still try, and a much smaller portion would succeed.


You're painting them like some Hollywood aliens, where they're all identical and use their superior intellect to ensure the destruction of humanity at all costs. It's ridiculous XD

Offline Ickyrus

  • Hero Member
  • Fiddle dee dee.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 2661
    • .
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 02:14:29 am »
It's a lot easier to kill someone/slaughter a crowd from a distance with a gun than with a knife or otherwise improvised weapon. In this school shooting, the kid got his mum's guns. Were guns restricted, I doubt such a kid would have been able to procure anything to kill anyone with. Yes, he could've gone in with fists blazing, but I doubt he would have caused as much damage. And I think it's a bit farfetched to say he would've just made a fertiliser bomb instead.
Surely if just a small number of massacres are prevented, that'd be a success?

Maybe it's just because I come from a land with gun laws, where guns are restricted to people who prove they are decent enough to have them, but I think the laws a good idea. Responsible people, hunters, hobbyists, etc. can still get their precious guns but they at least have to prove they're not idiots and they can't have semi/automatic ones that I know of. I don't hear about rampages all that often, what do happen are mostly gang wars in Sydney, which of course are going to happen no matter what you do. But here in the wonderful land of victoria we have the courtesy to stab/beat/kick etc. people which makes mass killings a heck of a lot harder.

BUT by having EVERYONE with guns, on the off chance that someone else has a gun, just means there's an awful lot more guns out there that some unstable person can get a hold of without a whole lot of thought.

Offline Yip

  • Species: vulpes vulpes
  • *
  • Female
  • Posts: 3998
    • Furaffinity
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2012, 01:47:09 am »
That's the thing about criminals....
You know, this is the sort of thing that always bothers me in debates about gun laws. You can't just put everything into categories of "criminals" and "law abiding citizens".  This ignores that there is a huge amount of grey area.

Offline Rocket T. Coyote

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Canis Latrans Rocketus
  • The Furry Model Rocketeer
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 1830
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 10:17:28 pm »
There was much faulty reporting on this tragedy. Many were led to believe the killer actually used the M-4 style rifle in the school. The fact is Connecticutt ranks 5th in the country for tough gun laws.
  He was a coward. He attacked the most vulnerable people he could find, stopping only when the good guys were swarming in. The attack also occured one week before the Mayan "end of the world."
He used a Sig Sauer pistol and a Glock pistol--the same as used by many law enforcement agencies.  He was a psychotic. Why should legimate gun owners give up freedom because of what a psychotic person does? Why should this impact licensed concealed carry? Why are all these shootings happening in "gun free zones"?

"The coyote is a living, breathing allegory of Want. He is always hungry. He is always poor, out of luck, and friendless. The meanest creatures despise him. And even the fleas would dessert him for a velocipide."~Mark Twain
(Baps the old humorist.)

Offline Mylo

  • *
  • Posts: 4761
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 12:30:01 am »
Why should legimate gun owners give up freedom because of what a psychotic person does? Why should this impact licensed concealed carry? Why are all these shootings happening in "gun free zones"?

If it would make the situation safer, then it is reasonable.

It should if the changes involve a more rigorous background check, or rather more mental qualifications.

"All these shootings?"

Offline phoenixwolf

  • Jr. Member
  • ranger wolf!
  • **
  • Male
  • Posts: 59
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 12:35:29 am »
i readin the news paper that americas most used muder weapon is the baseball bat.....try  put restrictions on them!

Offline Mylo

  • *
  • Posts: 4761
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2013, 12:41:12 am »
i readin the news paper that americas most used muder weapon is the baseball bat.....try  put restrictions on them!

Whether or not that is true, a baseball bat is intended to be used in baseball. A gun is intended to be used to  injure and/or kill easily.  That is why there are restrictions on them.

Offline Rocket T. Coyote

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Canis Latrans Rocketus
  • The Furry Model Rocketeer
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 1830
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2013, 01:48:48 pm »
Why should legimate gun owners give up freedom because of what a psychotic person does? Why should this impact licensed concealed carry? Why are all these shootings happening in "gun free zones"?

If it would make the situation safer, then it is reasonable.

It should if the changes involve a more rigorous background check, or rather more mental qualifications.

"All these shootings?"

If one were to view a Form 4473, the form one must fill out when affecting a firearms purchase in the United States, one may find that those judged to be mentally defective may not apply, nor those with (misdemeanor) domestic violence background, nor felons, nor illegal aliens. Persons under 21 years of age may not purchase handguns (nor handgun ammunition). Plus the purchase must be cleared by the FBI. This would not have applied to the monster of Newtown as he stole the guns used in the massacre.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 01:58:20 pm by Rocket T. Coyote »
"The coyote is a living, breathing allegory of Want. He is always hungry. He is always poor, out of luck, and friendless. The meanest creatures despise him. And even the fleas would dessert him for a velocipide."~Mark Twain
(Baps the old humorist.)

Offline Mylo

  • *
  • Posts: 4761
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2013, 02:36:49 pm »
If one were to view a Form 4473, the form one must fill out when affecting a firearms purchase in the United States, one may find that those judged to be mentally defective may not apply, nor those with (misdemeanor) domestic violence background, nor felons, nor illegal aliens. Persons under 21 years of age may not purchase handguns (nor handgun ammunition). Plus the purchase must be cleared by the FBI. This would not have applied to the monster of Newtown as he stole the guns used in the massacre.

He stole the guns from his mother, which is not as difficult as stealing them from someone else.  And it may be wishful thinking, but if there are less guns, wouldn't it be more difficult to steal them?

Offline Narei Mooncatt

  • Hero Member
  • Knight of the Road
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 4119
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2013, 02:45:58 pm »
The latest story is a lawyer is now wanting to sue the state for not keeping the kids safe. That's going overboard IMHO, but guess I shouldn't be surprised. How can you be held liable for not preventing something so heinous? As much as I feel for the victims, I hope this suit isn't allowed to go through.
I've got a 53' tail. Truck driver by trade, professional tourist by choice.

Offline Avor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 504
Re: Newtown, Conn. - Is this the last straw?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2013, 04:34:16 pm »
Avoid the flawed conclustion "They can steal guns so we shouldn't even try to regulate them"

If these evil man have to steal their weapons there is a chance they will fail in that attemp or will be caught for that crime.



He stole the guns from his mother, which is not as difficult as stealing them from someone else.  And it may be wishful thinking, but if there are less guns, wouldn't it be more difficult to steal them?

I don't think the problemem is the ammount of guns, but how they are stored. If those guns were locked up in a proper gun safe instead of laying about, it would be alot harder for him to shoot his mom. If she could have made a stuggle or caught him breaking into the safe, things might have been alot better.