Author Topic: Torture  (Read 5568 times)

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Offline Kobuk

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Torture
« on: March 20, 2013, 01:54:17 pm »
I just picked up today the DVD movie "Zero Dark Thirty".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Dark_Thirty
The film has garnered a lot of attention, most notably in scenes depicting torture of terrorist suspects.

I haven't watched the film yet, but I wanted to post this topic and get member's opinions on the following:

Should torture be allowed, either knowingly or unknowingly, of foreign terrorists/criminals by the U.S. and/or it's Allies?
How far should torture be allowed to go?
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Offline Foxpup

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Re: Torture
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 05:02:29 pm »
No. Just no. And all arguments in favour of torture rely on the assumption that it actually works, which it doesn't, as people will anything to make it stop, including false confessions.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Torture
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 09:15:05 pm »
No. Just no. And all arguments in favour of torture rely on the assumption that it actually works, which it doesn't, as people will anything to make it stop, including false confessions.
I agree. I found this quote on wikipedia which apparently came from the US Army manual on interrogation. I think it sums it up well:

"The use of torture is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

Offline RedneckFur

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Re: Torture
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 07:14:27 pm »
The most successful interrogator of all time, Hanns Scharff (ww2 german Whermact officer)  Never used torture.  He also had a near 100% success rate with getting needed information.

His technique was simple.  Be nice to the prisoner.  He was known to take his prisoners for walks in the forest, on picnics, to the zoo, and for one prisoner, he allowed to have a short joyride in a German fighter plane.  In being kind and trustworthy with his prisoners, he became their friend, and learned all the information he needed to know, often without even having to directly ask the question.

After the war, Schraff came to the US, where he advised the American military on how to successfully interrogate without using torture or heavy-handed techniques. Afterwards, he done artwork for the Disney theme parks, and colleges all over the US.

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Offline Arashi_Calunata

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Re: Torture
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 01:46:48 pm »
Perhap's I'm just WAY old-fashioned, but I believe torture's aplication is more in the vein of when it can be used properly. I believe in torture as a form of punishment; If the punishment is strict and torturing, people do it less. America's prisoners get little more than a slap on the wrist; You are in more danger because of a cellmate than a guard or something similar. I'm not saying it can solve a crime issue, but I believe it can help an extreme ammount. Sending a message is a good usage for torture.

However, in matters such as getting information, it can be a lot less effective.

Torture is best used as a method for completed a very vague goal for, as I've said, getting a point across, not a way of getting hyper-specific information. Or really, getting any information at all.
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Offline flatout442

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Re: Torture
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 09:53:53 pm »
It depends, torture is usually very effective but inhumane to a degree. As long as they get an answer out of him/her with out physically harming them I'm fine with torture.
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Offline Alsek

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Re: Torture
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 05:48:29 am »
We should never sink to that level.  That's the whole point of a free nation, Having standards for how we treat human beings.  If we torture them because we're scared,  then they've succeeded in corrupting our standards.  They've succeed in their goal of terrorism.

Waterboarding,  and anything else that will leave a human being with PTSD are torture.

Offline Jacoby Quinn

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Re: Torture
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 07:53:16 am »
ok, i can see both sides, but in all honesty i just like to be of an opposing opinion at times
i say yes, but to a particular kind of torture
immanence
the shock of being stabbed is a physical torture, but on the level of information gathering, is indeed highly ineffective
however psychological torture is a much more effective route, especially with a pair, let one watch as the other goes mad, then begin to do the same to them when the other is broken, they will see the madness and torment its immanent arrival, it looming in front of them, and they would do anything at that point to stop it, when faced with that, most minds cannot think clearly enough to lie

physical torture is a slow merciless death, which they would die sooner than give the information

but knowing that you won't be allowed to die....i've been there, medicine conflicted, almost killed me and nearly drove me insane
at that point i would have given up any info just to have died swiftly
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 07:57:05 am by whtwolf »
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Offline flatout442

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Re: Torture
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 10:25:46 am »
Waterboarding,  and anything else that will leave a human being with PTSD are torture.

My dad was waterboarded, he doesn't have PTSD.
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Offline Arashi_Calunata

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Re: Torture
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 04:45:14 pm »
Let me reiterate my comment;

Torture is incredibly inneffective when used as a method of gaining any information. However, if it used to send a message, not in a "We're scared" way, but in the sense of... Say, a territorial display, it can prove highly useful. Seeing as, being modernized, first-world humans, we no longer have a use for that sort of thing, the best thing we can do with torture is interrogation. And that's not all that good. But in tribal, and feudal, systems, brutally torturing an enemy then either A) Killing them in a way for all to see or B) Sending him back to where he came from can prove a excellent point; "Leave us alone". But it's even inneffective then, because wars can spring up from either approach, and likely has.
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Offline Arashi_Calunata

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Re: Torture
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:08 pm »
We should never sink to that level.  That's the whole point of a free nation, Having standards for how we treat human beings.  If we torture them because we're scared,  then they've succeeded in corrupting our standards.  They've succeed in their goal of terrorism.

Waterboarding,  and anything else that will leave a human being with PTSD are torture.
We SHOULD be scared. These are people who's main goal is to destroy the US, Britain, and other affililiated nations (NATO primarily) and all it stands for. Treating them like a major threat is a VERY good thing. But, it's a extremely tricky thing to defend from, and even harder to attack. Terrorists have already nailed one part of warfare, and that unpredictability.
And if anything that causes PTSD can be considered torture, does that mean a car accident is torture? Intense corrective surgery? Intense Life-Saving surgery? Life-threatening injuries that are accidentaly or self-inflicted?


Sorry for posting twice in a row.

/Unconnected Rant Over/
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 04:51:41 pm by Arashi_Calunata »
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Offline Jacoby Quinn

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Re: Torture
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 05:28:17 pm »
Let me reiterate my comment;

Torture is incredibly inneffective when used as a method of gaining any information. However, if it used to send a message, not in a "We're scared" way, but in the sense of... Say, a territorial display, it can prove highly useful. Seeing as, being modernized, first-world humans, we no longer have a use for that sort of thing, the best thing we can do with torture is interrogation. And that's not all that good. But in tribal, and feudal, systems, brutally torturing an enemy then either A) Killing them in a way for all to see or B) Sending him back to where he came from can prove a excellent point; "Leave us alone". But it's even inneffective then, because wars can spring up from either approach, and likely has.

that is a matter of opinion, state some facts
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Offline Arashi_Calunata

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Re: Torture
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 06:08:21 pm »
I just picked up today the DVD movie "Zero Dark Thirty".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Dark_Thirty
The film has garnered a lot of attention, most notably in scenes depicting torture of terrorist suspects.

I haven't watched the film yet, but I wanted to post this topic and get member's opinions on the following:

Should torture be allowed, either knowingly or unknowingly, of foreign terrorists/criminals by the U.S. and/or it's Allies?
How far should torture be allowed to go?

WhtWolf, I am completely within my rights on the topic. The red word. "Opinion".
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Offline Jacoby Quinn

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Re: Torture
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 06:16:31 pm »
i never said you were not, we are at opposing ends of a debate, we have stated our stances, in a proper debate one would provide facts to back them up.
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Offline Arashi_Calunata

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Re: Torture
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 06:40:31 pm »
i never said you were not, we are at opposing ends of a debate, we have stated our stances, in a proper debate one would provide facts to back them up.
I was not directly arguing, just stating my thoughts. Do not turn this into a true argument, lest the administrator's terrible wrath appears! Wel, actually, not really that terrible, it's actually extremely sensible. But in any case, my debate was with Alsek, NOT you.

To be entirely honest, I didn't understand what your argument, at first, was about. And now that I look at it more clearly, we both think the same thing. It is an inneffective means of gathering information. But I meant in the entire spectrum, and you meant physical only. That's the only difference in our arguments that I can actively note.
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Offline flatout442

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Re: Torture
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 01:23:28 am »
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Offline Old Rabbit

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Re: Torture
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 09:30:11 am »
Torture has little value in gathering information. It will likely
do more psychological damage to those inflicting the torture than
to the victims themselves.

Kind normal people can become so desensitized they can loose their
humanity when involved in such actions.

I belive torture was and is used more as a way to control people
than a way to get information.

So I don't think the U.S. should be involved in torture. It only
gives reason for our enemies to hate us, and can create martyrs.

There are many other ways to collect information.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Torture
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2013, 04:58:49 pm »
Perhap's I'm just WAY old-fashioned, but I believe torture's aplication is more in the vein of when it can be used properly. I believe in torture as a form of punishment; If the punishment is strict and torturing, people do it less. America's prisoners get little more than a slap on the wrist; You are in more danger because of a cellmate than a guard or something similar. I'm not saying it can solve a crime issue, but I believe it can help an extreme ammount. Sending a message is a good usage for torture.
I disagree. Torture as a means of keeping people in line may work, but governing by such a means is tyranny. Besides, I'd much rather live in a world where people treat each other with a basic respect and kindness for it's own sake, not out of fear of punishment.

Offline Avor

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Re: Torture
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2013, 04:12:42 am »
Tourure is nothing more than revenge and hate.

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« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 09:51:38 am by Avor »

Offline Shim

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Re: Torture
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2013, 11:59:23 pm »

Tourure is nothing more than revengence and hate.

A true soldier would say nothing, a lesser soldier would know nothting

Just so you know, Revengeance isn't a real word; as much as Hideo Kojima would like to tell you otherwise.
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Offline Arashi_Calunata

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Re: Torture
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 05:50:43 pm »
Perhap's I'm just WAY old-fashioned, but I believe torture's aplication is more in the vein of when it can be used properly. I believe in torture as a form of punishment; If the punishment is strict and torturing, people do it less. America's prisoners get little more than a slap on the wrist; You are in more danger because of a cellmate than a guard or something similar. I'm not saying it can solve a crime issue, but I believe it can help an extreme ammount. Sending a message is a good usage for torture.
I disagree. Torture as a means of keeping people in line may work, but governing by such a means is tyranny. Besides, I'd much rather live in a world where people treat each other with a basic respect and kindness for it's own sake, not out of fear of punishment.
Hmm... One can still be a democracy and have a strict punishment system. I don't believe that people can treat eachother with true respect easily anymore, because so many things publicly go against enforcement or even respecting women and SO many other things. Your are supposed to respect the law and other human beings out of free will, yes, but I believe it may have gotten a little hard for this generation to do so. Police Brutality is not what I am promoting, but a healthy respect for the punishments of violating laws. Doing torture without a reasonable basis is nonsensical and broken.

But then, on the other hand, torture may not be the best punishment for the less violent crimes... Perhaps stricter sentances and less generally hospitable environs?

Minus the shankings and whatnot.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 05:57:31 pm by Arashi_Calunata »
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Offline Yip

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Re: Torture
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 07:41:31 am »
I don't believe that people can treat eachother with true respect easily anymore, because so many things publicly go against enforcement or even respecting women and SO many other things.
First of all, "anymore" would indicate a declining state, which despite the large number of people that pine for some imagined "good old days", it's just patently false. The data shows that overall levels of violent crimes are decreasing (at least in the US), and the overall quality of life is increasing as science and technology advance. I also take issue with this "respecting women" comment. Not because I don't think women deserve respect, but because I think people should be treated as individuals and not "men" or "women". In fact, the decline you may see in people "treating women with respect" may in reality be people treating women like people instead if placing them in a category to treat differently.
This is a good thing.

Also, punishment and torture are not the same thing. Torture would be an extreme form of punishment, and one that any civilized nation should eschew. Anything qualifying as torture would fall into the category of cruel and unusual punishment which the constitution (in the US) specifically forbids.

Besides that, studies have shown that for influencing behavior, positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative reinforcement.
Put simply: the carrot works better than the stick.

Offline Jacoby Quinn

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Re: Torture
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2013, 09:10:02 am »
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