Guns

[Mooshi]

Something about that number does seem a bit odd. The one thing that is true is that big cities will have a higher crime rate than being in the country. Crime is everywhere, but there are other factors you must look at as well. We need to do away with political correctness and look at the bigger picture like which locations in the US have the highest homicides, find out what these locations have in common - this is including which races are commiting the most crime and why. The excuses that I call shenigans on are the ones that involve playing the race card or using key words such as "under privlaged". I don't buy that. We have people who migrate to the USA from a legitimate poor country that become successful here. Things such as black on black crime is just an unexcusable embarassment in this country. (Before anyone brings up oppression - slavery ended over a hundred years and other groups have been oppressed for far longer such as the jews.)

[Sk Skunk]

The numbers do sound bad, but I would like some more information.

What about the differences in population numbers of the countries listed?

What are the total numbers of murders in each country?

What are the nature of the crimes? Are we including gang bangers and drug scum taking out each other?

How many of the murders were committed by people that got a hold of the guns illegally?

A better question would be, why are the people in the US so willing to kill each other?

And to muddy the water even more, how many people were killed in the same year by drunk drivers?
I suppose if I'm going to go here, I should find some numbers for comparison. From http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics-2006.html This site states for 2006: 42,532 total traffic deaths, 15,829 alcohol related deaths. Sorry for the mini derail.

That's the problem with statistics, many times they just lead to more questions. It's a good thing if your a researcher with a grant. I have better things to do, like going target shooting in the morning before the rain and snow comes in. Owning a gun does no good if it cannot be used in a responsible manner, part of that means staying proficient.

[Mooshi]

http://www.guncrime.org/race_ethnicity.html

Firearm violence for blacks age 12 or older was: 40% higher
than the rates for Hispanics, 200% higher than the rates for
whites. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2006)
Black people are 9 times more likely than white people to be
victims of gun related homicide (Bureau of Justice Statistics,
2006)
In London 70% of gun crime is committed by Black youths
(Murder Blues, BB1, 2005).
The police said that the group they found most difficult to
deal with were young black men because they were often
fearful that they may be carrying weapons in particular guns
and knives. They said that in general they find ethnic
minorities difficult to understand (Race Against Crime,
Channel 4, 1999).
The police are now more cautious when carrying out stop and
searches as they are afraid of being accused of harassment
they say that black people are most likely to accuse them and
that black people do not trust the police and in fact
discriminate against them. (Race Against Crime, Channel 4,
1999).Black people have a lot of distrust for the police and
many think they are racist.

www.capitalismmagazine.com/culture/racism/5012-

High-Murder-Rates-Cities-with-Large-Black-Populations.html
Other cities such as Baltimore, Detroit and Washington, D.C.,
with large black populations, experience the nation's highest
rates of murder and violent crime. This high murder rate is,
and has been, predominantly a black problem.
According to Bureau of Justice statistics, between 1976 and
2005, blacks, while 13 percent of the population, committed
over 52 percent of the nation's homicides and were 46
percent of the homicide victims. Ninety-four percent of black
homicide victims had a black person as their murderer.
Blacks are not only the major victims of homicide; blacks
suffer high rates of all categories of serious violent crime,
and another black is most often the perpetrator.
Liberals and their political allies say the problem is the easy
accessibility of guns and greater gun control is the solution.
That has to be nonsense. Guns do not commit crimes; people
do.

It's easy to say we're all the same, but statistics don't  lie. Once you take off the PC glasses, you'll see that blacks commit the most crime out of any race within the United States. The cities with the highest crime rate also have a large black population. It's not ugly racism, they are facts and facts aren't "racist". Too many people call racism when you go against their beliefs and honestly, that's a pitiful arguing point. The second group of people for crime are hispanics. What's interesting is that the media goes into a frenzy over Mexico's crime within proximity of the US, but hardly say anything about "African-Americans" because someone will complain how reporting that is racist. In our over-PC world. If we go international, the most dangerous countries have either a high hispanic or black population. Columbia and S.Africa are 1 and 2 btw. You could bring inequality into this if you're offended and I'll bring up President Obama. That arguement is no longer valid. Yes, all races commit crime, but some more than other. It isn't racism, it's reality.

[Alsek]

Doesn't anyone study American history?  Does anyone know why we have a second amendment?

It has nothing to do with hunting, self deference,  or shooting robbers.


Also for the record,  when the second amendment was invented, it was not uncommon for people to own rifles the caliber of which was in the 60s.

Know your information if you're going to make an argument.  If we don't know our history,  and if we start making changes to laws without understanding why they are there,  we are doomed to repeat our past mistakes.

I'll take a world where i may have to use a firearm in my own defense over a world where the government doesn't allow me to have one.   

[Kobuk]

Putting in a staff pre-emptive warning to please ask everyone to be careful and not turn this thread into about race/racism relating to guns as the issue of race/racism can be very sensitive to some people. Thanks.

[Mooshi]

I don't believe sparing feelings to hide the truth. It's only one factor in the overall picture relating to deaths caused by guns. All logic says more guns equate to more violence, but this isn't always the case. Some countries have many armed people with a low crime rate and others have a lower armed rate with more crime. There is also the motivation to look at. Often times illegal activites fuel gun violence. More often than not, drugs are involved. Our world can be messed up at times.

[Serra Belvoule]

Putting in a staff pre-emptive warning to please ask everyone to be careful and not turn this thread into about race/racism relating to guns as the issue of race/racism can be very sensitive to some people. Thanks.

0-0 You know, I don't see how guns are supposed to be related to races whatsoever..... Am I missing something here or maybe it's an american thing and I'm out of the loop...

[Fen-Fen]

I don't believe sparing feelings to hide the truth. It's only one factor in the overall picture relating to deaths caused by guns. All logic says more guns equate to more violence, but this isn't always the case. Some countries have many armed people with a low crime rate and others have a lower armed rate with more crime. There is also the motivation to look at. Often times illegal activites fuel gun violence. More often than not, drugs are involved. Our world can be messed up at times.

Well the topic of race in general is -always- a touchy subject, even before political correctness came into play. It's not so much hiding the truth, but just keeping the peace overall in the forum. Heated debates can always be taken to a PM.

@Alsek: I just got done with my Georgia History/USA History class this semester and we went through most of the amendments. While the second amendment has nothing to do with hunting, it does encompass the concept of a militia which was for defense/security of a "free State". In 2008's court case of District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court ruled that the second amendment DOES provide the right to possess a firearm unconnected to a militia and to use said firearm in a lawful way (such as self-defense in your home). The way the Amendments were written provided a lot of wiggle room as we all know (which is both good and bad) so while it does not spell out self-defense in black and white, it can be inferred.

[Arbutus]

0-0 You know, I don't see how guns are supposed to be related to races whatsoever..... Am I missing something here or maybe it's an american thing and I'm out of the loop...

Sadly, it's an American thing. To say gun violence itself is a racial issue, though, is overly simplistic. I think gun violence is largely a poverty issue. Poor people are the ones who are desperate enough to commit crimes and embrace violent lifestyles, because they have so few opportunities to lead a normal life. And because of chronic socioeconomic segregation, the poorest of the poor in this country - especially in our cities - are black. Hence those figures. Skipping straight to "gun violence is a black problem" misses the steps in between.

[Mooshi]

The reason I mentioned race was because "they're poor" is an overused excuse for crime rates. Columbian drug lords are far from "poor". Every group has their poor people, but some are more easy to enrage than others. Not every Asian country is like Tokyo, Japan. There is a lot of poverty in the poorer areas, but you don't see constant gang war in China do you? Maybe there is DNA at work here and we're too PC to talk about it. Animals lack the control humans have when we're angry, this has been proven. There is a part of the human brain that acts like a switch. The "fuse" so to speak. This is responsible for us to keep us from strangling someone who ticks us off. Animals lack this switch and go off raw instinct. Maybe when humans evolved, split off to form the "races", maybe some races are more prone than others to go off animalistic rage. We all have bad days, but for some, pulling out a gun and pulling the trigger isn't an afterthought - it's "normal".

[Fen-Fen]

The reason I mentioned race was because "they're poor" is an overused excuse for crime rates. Columbian drug lords are far from "poor". Every group has their poor people, but some are more easy to enrage than others. Not every Asian country is like Tokyo, Japan. There is a lot of poverty in the poorer areas, but you don't see constant gang war in China do you? Maybe there is DNA at work here and we're too PC to talk about it. Animals lack the control humans have when we're angry, this has been proven. There is a part of the human brain that acts like a switch. The "fuse" so to speak. This is responsible for us to keep us from strangling someone who ticks us off. Animals lack this switch and go off raw instinct. Maybe when humans evolved, split off to form the "races", maybe some races are more prone than others to go off animalistic rage. We all have bad days, but for some, pulling out a gun and pulling the trigger isn't an afterthought - it's "normal".

Uh, no. I'm sorry, but that is a very ignorant comment to make. There have already been "scientific studies" conducted surrounding races and their "capacity" to do and appreciate things. Needless to say, they were shot down.

How about it's something called "desensitizing"? Crime is more prevalent in low-income neighborhoods and communities as most people know. There's children in these communities growing up with their cousins in gangs, their uncles running dog fighting rings, and many other horrible things that no child should ever be brought up with. When you're surrounded by such things, you are desensitized to how really wrong these things can be. Since it's the relative "norm" in your neighborhood, you're more than likely to get caught up in it. My mother has had her SECOND GRADE kids come up to her and tell her about how a family member of theirs took them to watch a dog fight. They say this without any ounce of remorse because it's normal for them. It's also normal for inner city youth to casually talk about how their father is incarcerated or their uncle is on parole.

So no, Mooshi, it's not Nature. It's nurture that causes this.

And to top it off, you have gun crimes from every race. If you want to step into organized crime there's Latino, Caucasian, Black, and Asian "mobs" that so this stuff all the time. They are more often than always involved in drugs at some level and usually when there's drugs there's guns.

[Mooshi]

Upbringing is another excuse I don't buy. There is some truth to the environment, but ultimately it falls on the individual. We have people who become successful in life with a poor background and we also have people who were spoiled rich brats that kill for no reason at all. Speaking of nurturing, I was raised by the same people as my younger brother. I'm 23 and he's 15 - guess who has been arrested twice and has a criminal record? Him. Can't blame the environment all the time.

[Fen-Fen]

Upbringing is another excuse I don't buy. There is some truth to the environment, but ultimately it falls on the individual. We have people who become successful in life with a poor background and we also have people who were spoiled rich brats that kill for no reason at all. Speaking of nurturing, I was raised by the same people as my younger brother. I'm 23 and he's 15 - guess who has been arrested twice and has a criminal record? Him. Can't blame the environment all the time.

I'm not blaming the environment entirely, but it's ignorant to say it's in one's DNA. The reason why a spoiled rich "brat" can kill can be deduced down to attention. A bad way to to get attention, but it's attention all the same and even that can be deduced to nurturing. Nurturing doesn't always have to have a good connotation.

[Arbutus]

Speaking of nurturing, I was raised by the same people as my younger brother. I'm 23 and he's 15 - guess who has been arrested twice and has a criminal record? Him. Can't blame the environment all the time.

Nor can you blame race, evidently!

[Mooshi]

It's a lack of responsibility and intelligence that's really at fault when it comes to crimes commited by guns. That at other little factors that add up. We're not all the same, everyone is different. Some groups of people are more suspect to gun abuse, but honestly, everyone has the potential to commit homicide. The key difference being desensitivity to these sort of things. Well, to a point. I'm not affected by gore, but have no desire to go all GTA on someone. o_O Too many people in the US are uneducted about the second ammendment. People like Alsek know the origin of it, but unfortunetly we have crazies twisting the meaning to mean "gun crazy nuts want our children to shoot each other!!" or some other liberal spin.

[Mooshi]

Nor can you blame race, evidently!

No, anyone is capable of abusing a firearm. You put up numbers showing a high crime rate in the US compared to other countries and I added to that with statistics. It isn't blaming any race, it's pointing out who is most likely to commit these crimes. Don't shoot the messenger!

[Arbutus]

It isn't blaming any race

Maybe when humans evolved, split off to form the "races", maybe some races are more prone than others to go off animalistic rage.

I'll just walk away and let the two Mooshis debate each other.

[Fen-Fen]

It's a lack of responsibility and intelligence that's really at fault when it comes to crimes commited by guns. That at other little factors that add up. We're not all the same, everyone is different. Some groups of people are more suspect to gun abuse, but honestly, everyone has the potential to commit homicide. The key difference being desensitivity to these sort of things. Well, to a point. I'm not affected by gore, but have no desire to go all GTA on someone. o_O Too many people in the US are uneducted about the second ammendment. People like Alsek know the origin of it, but unfortunetly we have crazies twisting the meaning to mean "gun crazy nuts want our children to shoot each other!!" or some other liberal spin.

Uh, that's EXACTLY what I said.

And I'm with Arbutus. Let the Mooshis debate all they like. 

[Shabbernigdo]

Imo they should increase the punishments for firearm related crimes.
Any one with a criminal record / violent record should never be allowed axcess to any fire arm and if found with one in there posession they should be locked up for a VERY long time.

Persons found commiting violent crimes using fire arms should get a minimum of 20+ years up to death depending on the sevarity of the crime.
Im all for an eye for an eye.

All the upbringng excuses and such dont ammount to crap. i dont care if your parents beat you or you had to run from gang bangers every day if any thing that should make you want to be a better person not make you wanna to sink to there level.

[Sk Skunk]

Imo they should increase the punishments for firearm related crimes.
Any one with a criminal record / violent record should never be allowed axcess to any fire arm and if found with one in there posession they should be locked up for a VERY long time.

In most cases, I believe that adding a gun to a crime already adds time to to the sentence. As it is already illegal to sell guns to most criminals, anyone who knowingly sells a firearm to someone with such a record should also be held partially accountable for the crimes committed by the person with the gun. I think that would be called an accessory to the crime.

[Mooshi]

I'm sorry if anyone was offended about the race issue, but that is one of the many variables that too many people are afraid to acknowlege. It isn't a sign of ignorance. Not too long in the news there was a NYC cabbie who was instructing his fellow cab drivers to racially profile who they pick up because they were tired of being shot at and killed. If you watch CNN, you've probably seen this story. The cabbie in question was hispanic/black himself. I have much respect for this guy because he told it the way it is "we're killing our own". Made me shake my head at the far left who are attacking this guy, especially that racist Al Sharpton. To fix a problem you have to acknowlege there is one first. Only then can things get better.

[Foxpup]

*sigh* Why does stuff always happen whenever I disappear after my modem gets struck by lightning?
For once Mooshi, I have to disagree with you. Black people are not more prone to violence; in my experience, it's them white fellas you've gotta watch out for. Although, racial profiling is pointless in any case, since criminals can be of any race (which hopefully goes without saying). Now can we please move on?

[Mooshi]

Of course anyone can commit crime. I was mearly reporting statistics and these statistics show who is most likely to commit these crimes. I don't make up the rules...people should set a better example instead of being another statistic. It was also from personal experience. Kinda hard to forget who shot my brother or who I usually end up seeing on the local news. None of that is my fault.

Here is something interesting I found. You can come to your own conclusions, but here are the most dangerous cities in the USA.

St. Louis is followed by Camden, New Jersey; Detroit,
Michigan; ; and Oakland, California. Cities that
are more notorious for their crime rates, like New York City
and Los Angeles, don't even make the top 25.

Here are the top 25 most dangerous cities in America.
1. St. Louis, MO
2. Camden, NJ
3. Detroit, MI
4. Flint, MI
5. Oakland, CA
6. Richmond, CA
7. Cleveland, OH
8. Compton, CA
9. Gary, IN
10. Birmingham, AL
11. Baltimore, MD
12. Memphis, TN
13. New Orleans, LA
14. Jackson, MS
15. Little Rock, AR
16. Baton Rouge, LA
17. Buffalo, NY
18. New Haven, CT
19. Hartford, CT
20. Dayton, OH
21. Kansas City, MO
22. Washington, DC
23. Newark, NJ
24. Cincinnati, OH
25. Atlanta, GA

[Mooshi]

If anybody has the free time, you can look up how many of those crimes were gun related and the cause of crime. I can safely bet a major motivation was drug related.

[Furlong]

If I can make a comment regarding firearms, as was the original topic...

I have mixed feelings regarding the possession of firearms. One one hand, I believe that there is no reason for civilians to own fully automatic weapons, but I do support ownership of pistols/revolvers/long guns, for sport shooting and personal defense. 

In the end, what I really hate is the cowboy gun owners.  The one's who flaunt their right to carry, bringing oversize revolvers to gatherings, demanding that they be allowed to carry wherever they choose, and such.