Author Topic: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?  (Read 538 times)

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Offline Kobuk

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SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« on: August 22, 2020, 04:01:01 pm »
Is science good or bad?

From time to time on the news, I keep hearing and reading how some people are against science. Whether it be the anti-vaccination people or the people against wearing masks to protect them from coronavirus, etc., etc.

So is it the actual vaccines, masks, technological hardware, etc. that is bad?
Or is it the people who invent, promote, use, etc. the science that is making science bad?

Science itself is not bad. It is only bad when people abuse, misrepresent, lie, hide, etc. it.

Think of it this way: Every time there is a gun violence story on the news, people will almost immediately say to restrict and ban guns because they believe guns are bad and the #1 culprit.
Not necessarily so. It is not the gun itself that is bad. It is the person who uses (and abuses) it.

Or in a more extreme case:
Is the Death Star from STAR WARS bad? Not necessarily so. It was only Grand Moff Tarkin, Darth Vader, and the Emperor who used it for sinister ways that made it a bad thing.

People are what make things good or bad depending on how that item is used. Not the vaccine, gun, Death Star, etc. itself.
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Offline Hans the husky

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2020, 04:03:52 pm »
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Offline cause the rat

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2020, 05:00:42 pm »
All these anti science people are noting more than morons screaming fear at the top of their voice. They live in houses made better by science. They eat food made safer by science. They drive cars made safer by science. They use cell phones and computers. Yet claim to be anti science? Hypocrisy is the best clown suit of all.

Science is a double edged sword. Good or bad, right or wrong means nothing. Knowledge is knowledge. The two edges of science are truth and arrogance. The truth is science is flawed. We don't know everything. The arrogance is claiming the truth is flawed. Because it doesn't fit in to what's known. My favorite line in science is "We found a new object. But it's not acting like it's supposed to". Arrogance needs no explanation.

Is there truth in the argument that a vaccine is flawed? Yes. Why? Genetic diversity. Genetic diversity makes one person allergic to pollen and another not. There is no way we know of that will make one vaccine work for every genetic code. In order for a vaccine to work is has to do what it's supposed to wile killing the least amount of people. That is the unfortunate truth. The argument for a vaccine. Tetanus killed thousands every year. The vaccine can cause serious side effects in a very small portion of the population. Saving thousands of people every year is worth the handful that could die.

Anti science and vacciners are flawed. In my personal opinion? Let them die. Charge them with murder if their children die. Charge them with felony neglect if their children get sick and live.


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Offline Jade Sinapu

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2020, 02:23:55 am »
I agree with all that has been said here.
Science is a tool to explain what is happening around us in a systematic way so we can then predict events with more regularity,  and understand cause and effect. Without any science,  the best we have is superstition and stories. None of which tell a truth,  nor are repeatable and thus of little information. Would you listen to the weather report if it always said " 50% of showers,  30% humidity,  high of 84F",  even in winter? No. But without any science,  isn't that what happens? People guess, or make up stories for their own reaons? Science requires proof,  requires repeatability,  requires an experiment,  requires peer review. It is not gossip.

You can research atomic energy,  make a bomb, but never detonate it.  In effect nothing happens but science.  Or send it into space and blow up a huge asteroid saving many thousands,  or power a huge city.  But nothing comes free of charge. It is that it is. It is what we make it.

Some people say, particularly in regard to illnesses, what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. But it also gives the disease a chance of infecting another host,  a chance of mutation and thus evading destruction,  and a chance of making someone else sick.  And that someone might not survive,  or may suffer life long complications.  All because someone didn't wear a mask or get a shot.  Science can tell us how to avoid a virus,  how to kill it, how it spreads, what the symptoms are.  Science is a good tool anyone can use to better themselves and the world. Sciencecan also end all life.
Humans have to make the choice.

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Offline Rocket T. Coyote

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2020, 10:42:25 pm »
I have a science job and in a public utility yet. It has kept me fed and sheltered--plus other important stuff.
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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2020, 04:22:12 pm »
Science itself is a tool. Like any tool if you do not understand it, do not understand how it works or how to use it properly you will of course get people who refuse it. Uneducated people I have learned, are not uneducated out of a lack of knowledge for the most part but because of many other factors. Refusal to admit they were wrong about something for example.

People can be astoundingly stubborn when they think they're right. Take for example my family. My father, his father and my stepmom were/are people who did/do think it's okay to use screws as drill bits. Now I know this is a stupid thing and anyone who has worked with wood for any extensive amount of time will tell you this is stupid but these three people figured that since it has always been okay for them to use screws in this way then it means they don't really need to do things like drill pilot holes before forcing a screw in through a solid chunk of wood.

Most people don't like to admit when they are wrong or when they have made a mistake. The current climate in most cultures, especially online, is that to admit a mistake is to invite doubt upon every action you have ever made. To change your mind is to appear as though you have no faith in your own position.

And this is what I think people misunderstand about science and scientists. Science is all about asking questions and finding answers to those questions and continuing to look for answers to questions we have answered. Most people think once you answer a question well enough that's it, end of line. Scientists on the other hand not only keep asking the same questions over and over they ask how many different ways can they ask the question.

To be more literal, even when scientists know how an experiment will work cause they've done it a hundred times, they'll keep doing the experiment again and again and again because you never know, some tiny unknowable variable might change the results and that change of results is exciting. It's a mystery to solve.
Doing this kind of methodical examination is not for everyone. Most people don't like to be proven wrong but for a scientific mind there is nothing better than being proven wrong about something because it means there's something new to see, something new to explore, a door they didn't even know was there has been kicked open. It might lead to a simple answer that makes everyone go "Oh. so that's what it was" or it could lead to a whole new field of science no one ever even thought to try.

And I also think there's a bit of existential horror for a lot of people when it comes to science. Science tells us that life, while unique and precious and infinitely complex is, at the end of the day, just matter like everything else. All the atoms that make up our bodies are all composed by different quantities of the same three pieces. Three pieces. Protons, Neutrons, Electrons, make everything

Science tells us that atoms are mostly empty space and that matter itself is made up mostly of absolutely nothing at all.
Science tells us that the universe had a beginning and it will have an ending and in the grand scheme of all things humanity and Earth will be little more than a tiny "Yop!" on a speck of dust in a vast and empty darkness.

And most average people's heads would explode with Lovecraftian insanity trying to wrap their heads around our being here in a universe so big and vast and unnoticing of our presence.
So for the anti-science crowd it's likely more reassuring to cover their ears, shut their eyes tight and drown everything out that that don't want to listen to because it's easier and safer and lets them feel some tiny measure of control over their corner of the universal asylum.

Personally I believe science is the greatest tool that we have ever made. Science, like the universe, does not care what we think, what we feel, what we want to have happen. Science, done right, shows us what is. It shows us the truth of things. It has no preconceived notions, no borders, no faiths. If you destroyed every single scientific textbook on the planet and got rid of every scientific mind and started over completely from scratch you would find all the same answers to all the same questions that came before.

That is the power of science.  8)

Sorry to ramble but I am very passionate about this topic. Can you tell?  :-[ :-[ :-[
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Offline Firelight

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2020, 10:05:47 pm »
It's both good and bad. Depends on what kind of people the scientists are. Some test on animals and don't care that they're torturing millions of animals everyday and that animal testing is very outdated. Then there are good ones who do everything else.

Offline Hans the husky

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2020, 01:23:04 pm »
Sometimes you have no choice then to test on animals and people. A lot of what we now about medicine today comes from nazi scientist who tortured people. It's a sad but true reality.

Offline Firelight

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2020, 02:32:18 pm »
There are other and better methods.

Offline Kobuk

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2020, 02:49:14 pm »
There are other and better methods.

Like what? If scientists got rid of animal testing completely, then what will they do? Using computer model simulations is one option, but that only goes so far. A computer simulation can't predict everything. Sometimes it's necessary to test on animals so as to see the results of something in real time.
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Offline Firelight

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Offline cause the rat

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2020, 05:07:42 pm »
The problem with animal testing is you get different results with animals. Different DNA means different chemical and physical reactions within the body. Rat poison will kill rats. Gives people gas and an upset stomach.
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Offline Jade Sinapu

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2020, 06:13:18 pm »
I know the original post was "science. Good or bad?", but since we are on the topic...
Why not ask the public to volunteer for dangerous medical tests?
How many people would you get, 20? But would those 20 people give very good data that saves many?
Some people may be so selfless. But all I have ever heard of were people being used for testing,  after all the dangerous tests were compete on animals.  Of course one test that is always done is destructive, lethal dose testing...
I hope someday computers can use dna code and simulate,  well, everything.  Long way away.

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Offline Kobuk

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2020, 06:42:26 pm »
Quote
Why not ask the public to volunteer for dangerous medical tests?

Why not use the criminals in prison? Particuarly the dangerous ones like sex predators, rapists, serial killers, people on death row, and other heinous crimes. Since they enjoy inflicting pain on innocent people, we should inflict pain right back at them.
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Offline Hans the husky

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2020, 07:26:06 pm »
Quote
Why not ask the public to volunteer for dangerous medical tests?

Why not use the criminals in prison? Particuarly the dangerous ones like sex predators, rapists, serial killers, people on death row, and other heinous crimes. Since they enjoy inflicting pain on innocent people, we should inflict pain right back at them.
I agree. As for Jade's point, they do do human testing and I think they pay them a hefty sum to take part. Sometimes they do go horribly wrong. I saw a documentary about one of these tests. I'll try to find it and post a link if anybody is interested

Offline Jade Sinapu

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2020, 11:28:04 pm »
 Yeah I figured there was compensation.  It might be a suicide mission.  But I bet some would still volunteer.  And maybe of society took care of the persons family and debts etc... would that be ok? I'm not sure.  It's a creepy idea to be sure.

Science is good,  bad people are bad.  Idk.  Maybe I shouldn't post when I need to sleep.
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Offline cause the rat

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 03:38:05 am »
We can't forcibly inject people with chemicals and call it testing. And it's not a suicide mission. There is the possibility for complications. But because people are screened beforehand that possibility is low. so it's not a dangerous chemical test. People volunteer because they want to help.

Science is good. Propaganda and fearmongering is bad.
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Offline Hans the husky

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 05:39:15 am »
https://youtu.be/a9_sX93RHOk
Here is the documentary. It's a rather disturbing story.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 12:43:51 pm by Hans the husky »

Offline Kobuk

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Offline cause the rat

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 01:01:34 pm »
Accentuate the negative. Forget about the positive. There are always risks in any medical trial. Just as there are risks in getting a tetanus shot. A virus that lives in every square inch of dirt around you. The same virus that killed thousands each year right here in America. The same vaccine that saves thousands of lives each year also kills a hand full of people that get the shot. If you look at how many people get sick or die from getting a tetanus shot you can make it look like a horror story too. This is what anti vacciners do. They don't see the tens of thousands of people who's lives have been saved. They only talk about the hand full of deaths. You can do the very same fearmongering with milk and eggs.
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Offline Hans the husky

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Re: SCIENCE: Good or Bad?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2020, 03:03:12 am »
Yeah I figured there was compensation.  It might be a suicide mission.  But I bet some would still volunteer.  And maybe of society took care of the persons family and debts etc... would that be ok? I'm not sure.  It's a creepy idea to be sure.

Science is good,  bad people are bad.  Idk.  Maybe I shouldn't post when I need to sleep.
I don't know if I would call it a suicide mission. Usually human testing is the last step and the chances of something going wrong are very low. Usually you would just get paid a few thousand dollars to lie in a hospital bed for a few days. But sometimes things can go wrong.