Author Topic: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)  (Read 60621 times)

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Offline Landrav

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #300 on: February 19, 2012, 12:40:45 am »
WHOA, I just spotted Derpy!  Tell me if you guys freak out, too, when you see it!
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Offline Hoagiebot

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #301 on: February 19, 2012, 10:09:07 am »
Before "A Friend in Deed" premiered this morning, we had just come off of three incredibly strong MLP:FiM episodes in a row: "The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000," "Read it and Weep," and "Hearts and Hooves Day."  I enjoyed those three episodes immensely, and I was really looking forward to the streak of excellent episodes continuing.  As a result, I started watching this morning's episode with extremely high hopes.  Unfortunately, by about one-minute and thirteen-seconds into "A Friend in Deed" I was already starting to feel that this episode was going to miss the high bar that those other three episodes had set.  To explain, the teaser scene before the opening credits had nothing directly to do with the plot of the rest of the episode.  This is a missed opportunity, as the teaser scene is supposed to provide some exposition and lead you into the episode's story.  Some of the best MLP:FiM episodes' teaser scenes have done exactly this, such as the Cutie Mark Crusaders making Miss Cheerilee a Hearts and Hooves Day card in "Hearts and Hooves Day," or Rainbow Dash pulling Fluttershy out of bed to get in line for apple cider in "The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000."  If you don't use your teaser scene to help with setting up the episode's plot, then it is literally a throw-away scene.

I am sure that at this point there are already a few of you here who are reading this that are already warming up their keyboard fingers to type out how strongly you disagree with with what I just wrote.  However, before you do, ask yourself this question:  How did showing Pinkie Pie putting on a 1980's aerobics workout suit, exercising her tongue, practicing facial expressions, and sitting on toy jacks have anything to do with establishing how she was every single pony's friend in Ponyville?  The answer is that it doesn't, and as a result the first act of the plot doesn't actually start until after the opening theme song has played.  This wastes a whole 6% of the episode's running time, which may not seem like a big deal at first, but keep in mind the fact that My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic episodes are only 22-minutes long to begin with, and as a result there really isn't much time for irrelevant material.  The writers really need to adhere to the Law of Conservation of Detail with such a short running time to make as much time available for the plot as possible, and here right off the bat the writer, Amy Keating Rogers, did not.  This will become a huge problem for this episode later on, as I will explain.

To help illustrate the points that I am about to make, here are the main plot points of "A Friend in Deed" according to Syd Field's Paradigm:

  • Exposition: ("Provides some background information to the audience about the plot, characters' histories, setting, and theme.")  The exposition is started right after the opening theme song finished playing.  The exposition for this episode serves to introduce how Pinkie Pie is friends with absolutely every resident of Ponyville, and remembers a lot of personal information about them, such as their names, birthdays, and regular orders from Sugarcube Corner.  This is done by showing Pinkie Pie talking to Daisy Jo, Rose, Mr. Waddle, Cheerilee, Zecora, our "Chekhov's Gunman" for the episode (a.k.a. "Matilda the donkey"), and by the additional information that is introduced during the song "Smile, Smile, Smile."
  • Inciting Incident: ("Also called the catalyst, this is the point in the story when the Protagonist encounters the problem that will change their life.")  The Inciting Incident happens at 6:19.  Pinkie Pie comes literally face-to-face with a newcomer to Ponyville, Cranky Doodle Donkey.
  • Plot Point 1: ("The last scene in Act I, Turning Point (or Plot Point) 1 is a surprising development that radically changes the Protagonist's life, and forces her to confront the Opponent.")  Happens at around 7:32.  Pinkie Pie inadvertently annoys Cranky Doodle Donkey, and when he doesn't become "instant best friends" with her she sits down puzzled and asks herself, "What just happened?"  She then becomes determined to win him over and convince him to like her.  Act II begins at 7:59.
  • Midpoint: ("An important scene in the middle of the script, often a reversal of fortune or revelation that changes the direction of the story.")  Happens at 12:40 when Pinkie Pie gives Cranky a new "Dreamboat Special" toupee as a gift, and he warms up to her a little bit.  According to the screenwriting website scribemeetsworld.com, "at the midpoint, something happens that changes the [protagonist's] fortunes for the better.  For the first time, success seems like a possibility."  That is exactly what happened here since Cranky truly appreciated the new toupee and was a bit nicer to Pinkie Pie immediately after receiving it.
  • Plot Point 2: ("A dramatic reversal that ends Act 2 and begins Act 3, which is about confrontation and resolution.")  Our low point for Pinkie Pie near the end of Act II occurs at 14:06 when she accidentally knocks a lantern on Cranky's precious scrapbook, setting the book on fire and ultimately ruining it.  This enrages Cranky and he kicks Pinkie Pie out of his house, leaving Pinkie Pie further from her goal then ever before.  The "Plot Point 2" reversal that ends Act II and begins Act III occurs at 15:25 in Twilight Sparkle's library, when a defeated and sullen Pinkie Pie suddenly regains her resolve and decides that she is going to force Cranky to accept her apology.
  • Climax or Showdown: ("The point at which the plot reaches its maximum tension and the forces in opposition confront each other at a peak of physical or emotional action.") The climax in Act III begins at 15:36.  Pinkie Pie confronts Cranky at his home and chases him throughout Equestria trying to force him to accept her apology.  The reaches its resolution at around 17:34 when Cranky throws open his door to see Matilda.
  • Resolution or Denouement: ("The brief period of calm at the end of a film where a state of equilibrium returns.") Starts at 17:51.  Pinkie Pie introduces Cranky to Matilda, and it turns out that Matilda was the "special friend" that Cranky had been searching for his entire life.  Overjoyed, Cranky forgives Pinkie Pie, and the only resident in Ponyville that didn't like Pinkie Pie is now both friends with her and found his long lost love.

Based on all of your comments about this episode thus far it seems like I may have been the only person to have had a problem with this next thing, but there was a very important piece of information that was missing from the exposition in Act I, which forces Amy Keating Rogers to reveal a plot-critical detail in the Resolution of Act III.  This causes what TVTropes .org colorfully calls an "*ss Pull:"

Quote
An *ss Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on.

In this case, the plot-critical object that was not properly introduced at the beginning of the story and instead was abruptly introduced at the end was the existence of Matilda's Scrapbook.  It was bad enough that Matilda, a  "Chekhov's Gunman" character unique to this episode to begin with, turned out to be Cranky Doodle Donkey's long lost love interest in Act III.  This causes Contrived Coincidence, or "a highly improbable occurrence in a story which is required by the plot, but which has absolutely no outward justification."  In other words, in the whole wide land of Equestria, how likely is it that Cranky Doodle Donkey would suddenly decide to retire in the very same small town that his love interest that he has been searching his entire life for happened to be living in all along?  Add to that the fact that the existence of Matilda's Scrapbook and what was contained in it was never properly introduced early on in the story, and that turns her scrapbook into almost a surprise Deus Ex Machina and adds even more contrived coincidence into the plot-- for example, isn't it convenient that Matilda had let Pinkie Pie see her private scrapbook at some point (off-screen no less) so that Pinkie Pie could later use that knowledge to solve the mystery of who Cranky Doodle Donkey was searching for?  Or how likely is it that Matilda would keep the exact same things in her scrapbook that Cranky did, or that Pinkie Pie would get the chance to see those particular items in Cranky's scrapbook in the few moments that she had with it before she accidentally set it on fire?  With how the episode is currently written the audience is supposed to except all of these amazing coincidences and the unseen established close relationship between Pinkie and Matilda, and just move on.  I'm sorry, but with a show as typically outstanding as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic tends to be, I expect *much* better plot development from it than that.

This is where that before mentioned wasted 6% of the episode time, the 1:15-long teaser scene, could have been put to some very good use.  It could have been used to show something like Pinkie Pie and Matilda flipping through Matilda's scrapbook together, establishing both Pinkie Pie's unseen tight relationship with Matilda, and the existence of her scrapbook.  They wouldn't even have to make the foreshadowing of the future importance of the scrapbook too blatant and ruin the plot's surprise revelation at the end, either.  For example, they wouldn't have to mention that the scrapbook contained any photos of a long lost male donkey, or anything about a "special friend."  That would make things too obvious.  But they could have briefly mentioned how the scrapbook contained a very old ticket, photos, and a menu from a long-past Grand Galloping Gala.  (i.e. "Oh wow, Matilda!  That gown that you wore to the Grand Galloping Gala in that photograph looks so beautiful!")  That would establish the both the scrapbook and the Gala keepsakes as Chekhov's Guns.  Then later on, near Plot Point 2 when Pinkie picks up Cranky Doodle's book, instead of her saying "Huh!  Would you look at that!" when she opens it, she could have said something along the lines of, "Hey, it's an old Gala ticket!" before she accidentally sets the book on fire.  That way, when Pinkie Pie reveals at the end how she put "two and two and two together" and figured out who the "special friend" Cranky Doodle Donkey was looking for was based on what she saw in his scrapbook, the existence of Matilda's scrapbook and the fact that they both contained souvenirs from a past Grand Galloping Gala would be pre-established in the story instead of being the before-mentioned "*ss pulls" that they were.

While I may have personally found the plot of this episode less than perfect, luckily both the animation and the music for this episode were both absolutely fantastic!  Once again the animators and the composers brought out their "A" game in spades.  I too was very impressed by the extremely well done stop-motion animation segment that was present in this episode, and thought that it raised the perceived production value of this show immensely.  All four Pinkie Pie songs sung in the episode were also very well done and catchy, especially "Smile, Smile, Smile."  In addition, here are some other quick little things that I noticed:

  • 0:23 - While I am still convinced that this episode's teaser scene should have been left on the cutting room floor in favor of one that had a lead-in to the plot, since it is here I might as well admit that I did get a kick out of Pinkie Pie wearing leg warmers.  While Pinkie Pie is no Cleo from Heathcliff, she still rocks those leg warmers pretty well!   :D
  • 1:58 - Of course the cow would have a Northern Wisconsin "Yooper Dialect."  How could it be any other way?
  • 2:21 - Ron Santo heel click!
  • 2:34 - Hey, it's Cheerilee!  She's become quite the featured character lately, not that I'm complaining about that, mind you!  Heck, by now she must have some serious lactic acid build-up in her legs because she has been running through my mind all day!  :D
  • 3:48 - I love the pink, magenta, and purple silhouetting done here!
  • 4:01 - Hoof bump!
  • 4:46 - Hmmm.  Could this potentially be a symbolic reference to Pinkie Pie's apparent dissociative personality disorder (a.k.a. her alternate "Pinkamena" persona) that we first saw in the episode, "Party of One?"
  • 9:08 - Pinkie Pie: "Oh Cranky, you can call me Pinkie!  All of my friends do!"  With that sultry look on her face, is she trying to become Cranky's friend or is she trying to slyly seduce him?  If her mission was the latter, it would have made for a much more interesting episode!  :D  *sigh*  If only my own dream "special somepony" Cheerilee could gaze into my eyes like that...  Oh wait, she can!!!  It looks like I just found myself a new Windows desktop wallpaper!   :)
  • 9:52 - First a "Party Cannon" and now a "Welcome Wagon."  What doesn't Pinkie Pie have?
  • 12:30 - Apparently along with dresses, Rarity can also make hair pieces.  Who knew?
  • 13:02 - Derpy sighting!  As much as I wish that I could say otherwise, I didn't realize that the pony flying around in the snowglobe was Derpy when I first watched this episode on TV.  It was only later, while closely analyzing a YouTube video of this episode for this post did I go back and see that it was Derpy floating around in there!  That little cross-eyed mare always makes my day!
  • 14:05 - There certainly weren't fireflies in that lantern!
  • 15:10 - Rainbow Dash, you're such an egghead!  Geez!
  • 15:55 - Cranky must truly be new to Ponyville if he actually thinks that he can escape from the time and space-warping Pinkie Pie!
  • 16:16 - Not only is Pinkie Pie dressed as a beaver here, but she chewed through that tree, too!  LOL!
  • 16:18 - Discord finally got his revenge!  Muhahahaha!

So in the end I ended up just finding this episode to be average.  Not mind-blowingly awesome, but not bad either.  It was just O.K.  As I mentioned above, both the music and the animation for this episode were absolutely spectacular, but the resolution to the story was kind of anti-climatic, out-of-thin-air, and unsatisfying, and that somewhat hobbled the episode for me as a whole and kept me from rating it as one of the great ones like the last three episodes that we had before it.  In any case, it looks like next Saturday we actually don't have a new episode of Pony scheduled, so next weekend you might finally be spared from reading one of my massive eye-blurring text-walls, and I might actually have to do some real work during my Saturday night/ Sunday morning for a change instead of spending 8-hours deeply analyzing and writing about cute little technicolor cartoon ponies.  Perish the thought!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 10:11:50 am by Hoagiebot »

Offline Foxxhoria

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #302 on: February 19, 2012, 11:31:21 am »
I am sure that at this point there are already a few of you here who are reading this that are already warming up their keyboard fingers to type out how strongly you disagree with with what I just wrote.  However, before you do, ask yourself this question:  How did showing Pinkie Pie putting on a 1980's aerobics workout suit, exercising her tongue, practicing facial expressions, and sitting on toy jacks have anything to do with establishing how she was every single pony's friend in Ponyville?

It was establishing the lengths she goes to to cheer others up; in this case the babies.
And how even after accidentally sitting on those jacks, she's still unrelentingly happy and ready for the day.
It does what you want it to pretty well actually.

I guess there could have been a small comment about Matilda's scrapbook at some point, but I don't know, I don't see it as as huge of a problem as you seem to.
It would have made it seem even more obvious to have introduced it in such detail as you seem to would like, and we'd be like "oh".
And also, the episode was about Pinkie struggling with a character who doesn't want her friendship, not how she brought two long-lost-lovers back together...
And why would Pinkie be bothered about it when it wasn't relevant?  It becomes relevant at the end, when she's putting two and two together, which we can already do because she's the only donkey that's introduced in the episode.  The scrapbook just provides the in-world justification for it.
*ponyshrug*
Understanding leads to empathy,
Empathy leads to admiration,
Admiration leads to love

Optimism leads to disappointment,
Pessimism leads to joy,
although, with optimism you are happy almost all the time,
and pessimism you are sad almost all the time.

Where's the line between being bored and generally too lazy to do anything? :p

Offline aspect

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #303 on: February 19, 2012, 01:22:40 pm »
While I agree that the out-of-nowhere nature of the ending is something of a weakness, I felt like it was ok since it was at least connected back to the exposition: Pinkie was able to find Cranky's lost love unlike him because of the very personality trait that brought her into conflict with him, ie being everypony's friend. This gives me this nice image of Pinkie functioning as a ... oh I forget the sociological term, anyway a 'hub' of information flow in the ponyville community.

Anyway it's only natural that Pinkie Pie would mention a new donkey moving in to Matilda, and Matilda would be able to recognise his name and tell Pinkie she knows him. Having seen Matilda's scrapbook is somewhat unnecessary, but gives an excuse for this to happen sooner rather than later. Any I enjoyed the timing with Crankey locking up his door and then Pinkie showing up with Matilda, so though the ending was a bit hastily pulled together I kind of see the justification for it and like the way it was done.

Now regarding Pinkie's "ramped up hyperness," I definitely think of this as the way Pinkie is more often than not. I mean sure, not that many episodes get to spend time on it, but all Pinkie's friends are used to just... not even trying to figure out what Pinkie Pie is up to half the time. And she's a genuinely annoying person who gets overenthusiastic enough to make mistakes and wreck things like she did in this episode. The thing is that she's also got lots of redeeming qualities, like knowing everyone and being so well-intentioned all the time. ..I feel I've probably written this all before, so I'll cut myself short but the point is I'm willing to accept a pretty wide range of behavior as 'in-character' for Pinkie.

All the birthdays at the beginning were neat, and it was great that they threw in Pinkie Pie's own birthdate later. If only we could be sure what date the episode itself happened on! Though I've seen people just assuming it took place Feb. 18th and calculating everything from that.

Offline Ryffnah

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #304 on: February 19, 2012, 05:44:32 pm »
"A Friend in Deed" was a cute enough episode, but I do agree with Hoagiebot that it's a little irritating that they brought in so much convenient information at the end.  I'm mostly willing to give that a pass...  However, I am bothered by the way that Pinkie's part in bringing Matilda back to Cranky Doodle is treated as any sort of remedy for her earlier erratic behavior that led to the destruction of Cranky's treasured scrapbook.  I mean...  seriously... living in a small town like Ponyville, Cranky Doodle and Matilda could hardly avoid running into each other within the next few days.  So, not only is it a complete coincidence that Cranky's long lost love is nearby but Pinkie's part in reuniting them is incredibly minor, expediting the matter by perhaps a day or two at most.  So, basically, she spent the entire episode annoying someone who wanted to be left alone, destroyed one of his treasured objects, and then was rewarded with his friendship because of something that had nothing to do with her at all.  On top of that, her letter to Princess Celestia completely fails to display any real knowledge -- I mean, right after telling Celestia that some people just want to be left alone, she pops up and annoys Cranky Doodle yet again.  Applejack may have bragged about learning nothing, but Pinkie Pie demonstrates having learned nothing.

I don't know.  Pinkie Pie is an amusing character, but I think I'd be terrified to have her as a friend.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 05:46:22 pm by Ryffnah »
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Offline Foxxhoria

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #305 on: February 19, 2012, 06:49:50 pm »
right after telling Celestia that some people just want to be left alone, she pops up and annoys Cranky Doodle yet again.  Applejack may have bragged about learning nothing, but Pinkie Pie demonstrates having learned nothing.

Just to let you know, that wasn't the friendship letter at all - I know Twilight said it, but she was just pointing out a logical possibility, kind of like she does to Pinkie (again) in Griffon the Brush Off when she says to Pinkie that she might be jumping to conclusions with Gilda.
It was a secondary lesson though they brought out of the turn of events, while they were there. 

The actual lesson, the one Pinkie does write to Celestia, is that there are different types of friendship -

"Dear Princess Celestia,

There are many different kinds of friends, and many different ways to express friendship.  Some friends like to run and laugh and play together, but others just like to be left alone, and that's fine too.
But the best thing about friendship, is being able to make your friends smile."

Which I think is a wonderful lesson to cover.
Understanding leads to empathy,
Empathy leads to admiration,
Admiration leads to love

Optimism leads to disappointment,
Pessimism leads to joy,
although, with optimism you are happy almost all the time,
and pessimism you are sad almost all the time.

Where's the line between being bored and generally too lazy to do anything? :p

Offline Ryffnah

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #306 on: February 19, 2012, 07:10:03 pm »
right after telling Celestia that some people just want to be left alone, she pops up and annoys Cranky Doodle yet again.  Applejack may have bragged about learning nothing, but Pinkie Pie demonstrates having learned nothing.

Just to let you know, that wasn't the friendship letter at all - I know Twilight said it, but she was just pointing out a logical possibility, kind of like she does to Pinkie (again) in Griffon the Brush Off when she says to Pinkie that she might be jumping to conclusions with Gilda.
It was a secondary lesson though they brought out of the turn of events, while they were there.  

The actual lesson, the one Pinkie does write to Celestia, is that there are different types of friendship -

"Dear Princess Celestia,

There are many different kinds of friends, and many different ways to express friendship.  Some friends like to run and laugh and play together, but others just like to be left alone, and that's fine too.
But the best thing about friendship, is being able to make your friends smile."

Which I think is a wonderful lesson to cover.

I've bolded the part of the letter where Pinkie claims to have learned that some people just want to be left alone.

After voicing that letter, Pinkie starts singing again, pops up in Cranky's window interrupting a kiss, and both donkeys have to yell at her to make her go away.  Lesson learned?  Not so much.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 07:13:32 pm by Ryffnah »
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Offline Foxxhoria

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #307 on: February 19, 2012, 07:50:08 pm »
After voicing that letter, Pinkie starts singing again, pops up in Cranky's window interrupting a kiss, and both donkeys have to yell at her to make her go away.  Lesson learned?  Not so much.

She does, she's like "Whoops, privacy, sorry!"

She just forgot herself for a moment.  Innocent mistake to make.
Understanding leads to empathy,
Empathy leads to admiration,
Admiration leads to love

Optimism leads to disappointment,
Pessimism leads to joy,
although, with optimism you are happy almost all the time,
and pessimism you are sad almost all the time.

Where's the line between being bored and generally too lazy to do anything? :p

Offline Ryffnah

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #308 on: February 19, 2012, 07:52:29 pm »
After voicing that letter, Pinkie starts singing again, pops up in Cranky's window interrupting a kiss, and both donkeys have to yell at her to make her go away.  Lesson learned?  Not so much.

She does, she's like "Whoops, privacy, sorry!"

She just forgot herself for a moment.  Innocent mistake to make.

Pinkie seems to forget herself for a lot of moments.
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Offline Foxxhoria

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #309 on: February 19, 2012, 07:56:10 pm »
Pinkie seems to forget herself for a lot of moments.

It's what she does... she's just the hyperactive sort.
Understanding leads to empathy,
Empathy leads to admiration,
Admiration leads to love

Optimism leads to disappointment,
Pessimism leads to joy,
although, with optimism you are happy almost all the time,
and pessimism you are sad almost all the time.

Where's the line between being bored and generally too lazy to do anything? :p

Offline Landrav

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #310 on: February 19, 2012, 11:43:30 pm »
I didn't think the episode plot was particularly strong, but I think it accomplished its most important tasks: Pinkie was funny and sang an awesome song.  That's enough for me to overlook any contrivances at the end of the episode.
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Offline Ryffnah

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #311 on: February 20, 2012, 03:39:52 am »
I do love the Smile, Smile, Smile song.
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Offline Ziel

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #312 on: February 20, 2012, 07:30:57 pm »
So, I've been following along in this thread to read the reactions people gave to the episode, but I don't think I actually put my own thoughts in yet! I've been busy with other things every time I've looked in, I guess, and just never had time to sit and write anything.

My first thought is that this has simply been a very strong season so far. It had a few hiccups, but overall I have liked pretty much every episode so far (seems like a lot of people feel it floundered for a few episodes there, but picked back up). I can honestly say that I feel like the team has definitely responded to the show's popularity, and has upped the (already high) bar in their production efforts.

That said, this season is kind of muddying together in a large pool of episodes. Not in a bad way at all, it's actually a good pool. But it makes it difficult for me to pick that one stand-out episode that seems to shine above the rest for me. They all just float around in that 'I liked/really liked' that episode' state.  So I found this one to be pretty average by this season's standards. Which still means that I liked the episode overall.

I had two main gripes with it.

1. I agree that the song just didn't seem to fit Pinkie. The lyrics did, but the execution of the song, not so much. By that, I mean it was just too organized/thought out for Pinkie. Her songs are usually short and somewhat random. You Gotta Share is probably the best example of a more full piece from Pinkie prior to this one. And frankly, it was still rather random, especially with the choreography of the song itself. The way it was set up, it just suits Pinkie better than Smile Smile Smile.  It was also a little overly-bubbly or something (I don't want to say 'girly' but... maybe childish? Did I just complain that something was possibly girly and/or childish in My Little Pony?). And given all that, it did seem to go on a bit longer than I would have liked. We've had some songs that were longer, but those have usually been songs that I just like better in general, so the length doesn't bother me.

2. No surprise here, but the ending of the episode was pretty blatantly obvious once Pinkie started to get Cranky to talk. I guess I should just get used to that, because it's not like I should expect some sort of huge, mind-blowing story-line twists in a show like this.

But there was plenty to enjoy in this episode, too. And plenty of moments that had me laughing. And I still had that warm and happy feeling after the episode that I've come to expect from my ponies at this point. A few of the highlights:
 - Hey everyone! This donkey here is REALLY, REALLY bald!
 - Pinkie thinks in felt!
 - Cranky's new toupee - the Dreamboat Special. I feel like this is a reference to something, which is going right over my head.
 - Continuity everywhere! The baby Cakes were there, RD was still obsessing over the Daring Do books. I have little doubt that these sorts of things were thrown in because of the feedback from the fandom. They could have just as easily left those little details out.
 - Pinkie meets Pinkie during her song. I was actually terrified for a brief moment at the possible implications thereof.

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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #313 on: February 20, 2012, 09:08:04 pm »
Cranky's toupe was the same hairdo as the sea serpent in episode 2 of season one. Steven Magnet.
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Offline Landrav

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #314 on: February 20, 2012, 11:46:36 pm »
1. I agree that the song just didn't seem to fit Pinkie. The lyrics did, but the execution of the song, not so much. By that, I mean it was just too organized/thought out for Pinkie. Her songs are usually short and somewhat random.

I don't think this one was meant to be a "Pinkie Song" so much as it was a song featuring Pinkie Pie.  To me it was more significant that she was basically singing about her life's mission.  Honestly, I have been sort of waving her off as a main character until this song, but it helped me understand her motivations on a deeper level.

Aside from that, I like to think this is what Pinkie sees in her head EVERY time she sings a song! :D
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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #315 on: February 21, 2012, 12:07:30 am »
Aside from that, I like to think this is what Pinkie sees in her head EVERY time she sings a song! :D

Ha, exactly what I was going to say! The song is sort of all in her head, especially the part where she helps herself up from the shadows. (I was sort of disappointed she didn't have straight hair when depressed. :) )

The toupeé is perhaps a Jhonny Bravo reference.

The fact that there is no new episode next week caused be to go back and look at old ones, and I'd really forgotten season one was as excellent as the recent ones (despite having just first watched them in January :P ) Besides, I've found even the 1080p episodes on Youtube play much higher quality if I download them first (using a utility like youtube-dl) and watch them on my computer, which also never hesitates during playback. So it's much more pleasant!

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #316 on: February 21, 2012, 01:12:52 am »
The song "Smile Smile Smile" was awesome.  I've just watched the episode, and I've already listened to the song four times.  It was also the first time the show gave me a prolonged, ear-to-ear grin.

...Yeah, it takes a *lot* to get me that happy.

I also managed to spot Derpy without any assistance this episode.  A *very* random placement, I do have to say.

Also, it seems that the song "Smile Smile Smile" had been leaked before this episode on Equestria Daily, according to several Youtube videos featuring that song well before the release of the most recent episode.

(*edit*) By the way, did anybody else notice that this episode had a different ending theme song to it?


It was also a little overly-bubbly or something (I don't want to say 'girly' but... maybe childish? Did I just complain that something was possibly girly and/or childish in My Little Pony?).

This literally had me laughing out loud.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 01:14:43 am by redyoshi49q »
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Offline Ryffnah

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #317 on: February 21, 2012, 02:14:46 am »
(*edit*) By the way, did anybody else notice that this episode had a different ending theme song to it?

Aaaaaaaugh!  I finally had that out of my head before I made the mistake of clicking on your link.
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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #318 on: February 21, 2012, 04:30:44 pm »
I am sure that at this point there are already a few of you here who are reading this that are already warming up their keyboard fingers to type out how strongly you disagree with with what I just wrote.  However, before you do, ask yourself this question:  How did showing Pinkie Pie putting on a 1980's aerobics workout suit, exercising her tongue, practicing facial expressions, and sitting on toy jacks have anything to do with establishing how she was every single pony's friend in Ponyville?

It was establishing the lengths she goes to to cheer others up; in this case the babies.
And how even after accidentally sitting on those jacks, she's still unrelentingly happy and ready for the day.
It does what you want it to pretty well actually.

The teaser scene doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the exposition of the story, and here's why:

Just to reiterate, the story of this episode in a nutshell is that Pinkie Pie is the friend of every single resident of Ponyville until she runs into Cranky Doodle Donkey.  When he spurns her friendship, she then spends the rest of the episode trying everything that she can to make him her friend.  For this story to work, we have to first establish that Pinkie Pie is friends with everyone in Ponyville.  This was done in the episode between 1:50 and 6:18 in the most literal of ways, by actually showing Pinkie Pie being friends with everyone in Ponyville.  This is accomplished by showing Pinkie Pie remembering everyone's birthdays, remembering customer's food orders, complimenting others on their flowers and clothes, and literally singing and playing merrily with every single pony in the entire town.  This is the setup of the character interrelationships right here.  When you're dealing with a medium that limits your episode running time to less than 22-minutes, you just don't have the time to symbolic or figurative with how you go about establishing the setting, main character, dramatic premise, and dramatic situation of the episode.  How can we show that Pinkie Pie is friends with everyone in the whole town?  Show her talking, singing, and playing with everyone in the whole town!  Done!  Mission accomplished!

The teaser scene, in contrast, does not have anything directly related to the entire rest of the episode's plot contained within it.  If you removed the teaser scene from "A Friend in Deed" it would not harm the episode's plot in any meaningful way at all.  If you got to your TV late last Saturday morning and missed the teaser scene when it aired it wouldn't have effected your ability to understand the rest of the episode in any way.  You could also add the teaser scene from "A Friend in Deed" to the beginning of any MLP:FiM episode that occurs chronologically after "Baby Cakes," and the scene would still make sense.  This is why it is the textbook example of a throwaway gag, because it is literally not tied to anything else that is going on in the plot of "A Friend in Deed."  Now if Pinkie Pie's aerobics routine, the two baby Cake twins, or the toy jacks somehow played some kind of a direct role at the end of "A Friend in Deed" by helping Pinkie Pie befriend Cranky Doodle Donkey in some way then you would have an argument on how the teaser scene is important to the main plot, but since none of the things from the teaser scene are ever seen or mentioned again in the rest of the episode the scene could easily have been lopped off with no consequence.

With that said, please keep in mind that the only reason why I became fixated on the teaser scene at all is not because I didn't think that it was cute, but because I thought that its screen time could have been better used to shore up the weaknesses that are present in the third act of the episode.  As I mentioned in my last post, the object that allowed Pinkie Pie to be able to "put two and two and two" together to reintroduce Cranky with Matilda in this episode, Matilda's scrapbook, *literally* came out of nowhere and was mentioned at the last-second.  It was never mentioned nor seen in the episode up until that point when it suddenly became crucial to resolving the conflict in the plot.  Such sudden introductions of important elements right before they are needed to resolve a situation can be jarring and make it seem like the character just pulled the solution out of their butt, which is why TVTropes.org calls this sort of occurrence an "*ss pull."  To avoid these *ss pull-type moments from happening in a story, you need to give any important character, skill, or item that is critical to resolving the plot some kind of subtle presence in the story before it is used.  That way, when that character, skill, or item does show up unexpectedly later at a critical moment to save the day it has been pre-established as always have been there, so it becomes a creative use of something that was available instead of hastily making up something that wasn't.  Two great examples of how plot-important things were subtly introduced into an episode before they were used include the shovels that were shown leaning against a wall before Sweetie Belle uses them to dig the pit in "Hearts and Hooves Day," and how in "A Friend in Deed" we were briefly introduced to Matilda at the beginning of the episode so that it was pre-established that she was a resident of the town before it was revealed that she was Cranky's long lost love at the end.

As far as why the teaser scene attracts my attention as part of the episode that could have been altered to improve the third act, since Pinkie Pie was already busy trying to make Cranky her friend in the second act, the only place that we could pre-establish the existence of Matilda's scrapbook would be in the first act when we introduced Matilda herself.  Unfortunately, this is where the extreme time constraints of the medium really come into play.  As I mentioned above, the inciting incident in the first act starts at 6:19, which means that you would have to find the time to establish the existence of Matilda's scrapbook before that point.  However, you don't have all of that 6:19 available to you.  35-seconds of it goes to the show's opening credits.  Another 1:16 of it gets used up by the current throwaway teaser scene.  And you lose yet another 3:21 to the song, "Smile, Smile, Smile."  That only leaves you with only 1-minute and 7-seconds of time left available to you for the rest of your exposition, which is barely enough time to accomplish anything, especially when all of it is currently being used to show Pinkie greeting Daisy Jo, Rose, Mr. Waddle, Cheerilee, Zecora, and Matilda.  It is that reason right there that explains why I look at that teaser scene with such greedy eyes.  It is a whole extra minute and sixteen seconds that could have been so much more effectively utilized to setup the episode's exposition with.  If you are going to use extra time to establish the existence of Matilda's scrapbook you need to grab that time from somewhere, and your two main options are either to replace the teaser scene, or eliminate the song "Smile, Smile, Smile."  And since "Smile, Smile, Smile" actually provides some very beneficial character interrelationship establishment by showing Pinkie Pie cheering up and singing with the entire town during it, I would say keep the song and replace the teaser scene.  That is why I directed so much of my attention towards that teaser-- I felt that in the case of this particular episode its time could have been better used.

Anyway it's only natural that Pinkie Pie would mention a new donkey moving in to Matilda, and Matilda would be able to recognise his name and tell Pinkie she knows him. Having seen Matilda's scrapbook is somewhat unnecessary, but gives an excuse for this to happen sooner rather than later.

If the episode actually showed Pinkie Pie talking to Matilda and mentioning the new donkey in town to her (or at the very least explaining that something like that had happened after the fact), then you would be onto something.  However, the episode shows or mentions no such thing.  There is no indication that Pinkie ever spoke to Matilda a second time between when Pinkie Pie first met Cranky at 6:19 and when she went to go fetch Matilda at 17:03 after figuring everything out.  Just assuming that a character would do a certain thing off-screen despite it never being seen nor mentioned in the episode itself is pure speculation on your part.  All that can be proven or disproven is what appears or is mentioned in the story itself.  This further illustrates the importance of pre-establishing all of the important information and relationships that are relevant to the story on-screen-- if everything that the audience needs to know to understand the plot of a story is actually present in the story, then the audience doesn't have to put themselves through wild mass guessing to fill in the holes for themselves.

2. No surprise here, but the ending of the episode was pretty blatantly obvious once Pinkie started to get Cranky to talk. I guess I should just get used to that, because it's not like I should expect some sort of huge, mind-blowing story-line twists in a show like this.

In some of my past posts in this thread I have agreed with your sentiment and felt somewhat disappointed when I was able to guess how an episode was going to play out, sometimes even before I watched the episode in question.  However, at the same time I have also started to try to take into account the running time-constraint that the writers have to deal with when they are writing episodes that are less than 22-minutes long.  In those 22-minutes you have to do absolutely everything, from setting up your story and characters, to having some sort of quest, journey, or confrontation, to having a satisfying resolution.  That gives the writers very little time to try to throw misleading information at the audience to misdirect them and lead them down multiple paths in order to surprise them later.  In hour-long prime-time television detective shows, such as CSI: Miami or Hawaii Five-O, the writers have a lot more time available to try to lead you astray before showing you the who real culprit is.  In a show that is half as long you have that much less opportunity to do the same.  That doesn't mean that I no longer think that the writers of MLP:FiM's should be doing their absolute best to try to keep the plots innovative and satisfying-- quite on the contrary.  Instead, all I am saying is that you have to keep in perspective how long of a running time that the writers had to work with to do what they were trying to do, and then judge them by how well they were able to tell that story in the limited amount of time that they had to do it in.

(*edit*) By the way, did anybody else notice that this episode had a different ending theme song to it?

This isn't the first time that there has been a different ending theme song for a MLP:FiM episode.  "The Return of Harmony - Part 2" also had a different ending theme.

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #319 on: February 23, 2012, 05:33:25 am »
I didn't get to see the episode until a couple days ago, and then was home and offline until now for the most part. Since this discussion has just gone way to long on this episode for me to contribute much without a lot of digging, I'll just leave it at it was a good episode. Mid tier maybe, which I may revise upon second viewing when I don't have a 2.5 year old toddler to contend with while watching. :D

Oh, and here's my take on the lesson really learned from the episode: If people don't want to be your friend, it's ok to stalk them relentlessly until they give in. :D
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Offline Hoagiebot

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #320 on: February 25, 2012, 12:57:56 am »
I didn't get to see the episode until a couple days ago, and then was home and offline until now for the most part. Since this discussion has just gone way to long on this episode for me to contribute much without a lot of digging, I'll just leave it at it was a good episode. Mid tier maybe, which I may revise upon second viewing when I don't have a 2.5 year old toddler to contend with while watching. :D

Oh, and here's my take on the lesson really learned from the episode: If people don't want to be your friend, it's ok to stalk them relentlessly until they give in. :D

I like the lesson that you took away from this episode-- I got a chuckle out of it!   :)  While I can't speak for anyone else here, I personally don't mind if you decided that you still wanted to discuss your full thoughts on this episode.  If there was anything else that you really wanted to contribute, feel free.  As I am sure you already know, we don't have a new episode of ponies airing tomorrow morning, so you wouldn't really be digging since you would still be discussing the the most recent one.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 01:00:25 am by Hoagiebot »

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #321 on: February 25, 2012, 10:57:46 am »
True, but I think most everything I'd say would have been said already, and then debated by someone else who thought otherwise. So the point is moot IMHO, and the excitement to post has already worn off. :P It's no big deal to me. ;)
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Offline Ziel

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #322 on: March 05, 2012, 04:11:35 pm »
Episode 19 was this weekend. Thoughts, anybody?

I'm torn about this episode. I mean, they've kinda already done the whole Discorded Fluttershy thing once already. But setting that aside, I did feel like this was a pretty strong episode. It had a handful of fun references in it, some of which had us* laughing pretty hard.

My only real gripe goes back to the first part of my comment. It was as if they completely forget what had happened with Discord, and Fluttershy had to re-learn that all over again. Just the way she snapped out of it and everything, was just so reminiscent of all that from before.

I think what I loved most was the trio of ponies featured in the episode. We haven't seen much in terms of the relationship between those three as a set. But they do seem like a realistic sub-group that would form within the group of 6. Come to think of it, AJ and RD have enough similarities that I can see them hanging out a lot outside the main group (and we've seen examples of that in the show as well). Leaving Twilight to just kinda... be there. Poor Twilight. At least she has her books. And Spike.

*Sidenote: I've been meeting up with a small group of local bronies to watch the episodes. Watching with a few other people just makes it that much better.

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Offline Ryffnah

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #323 on: March 05, 2012, 04:16:31 pm »
I can't believe I'm actually the first person to post here about "Putting Your Hoof Down," especially since I was busy all weekend and didn't get around to watching it until today.  I was looking forward to reading other people's posts and was hoping to find something to like about this episode from them.  As it is...  I was really disappointed.  I'd been excited for there to be a new Fluttershy episode, but this episode felt like utter fail.  I mean, at the beginning of the season when the arch villain Dischord tried to turn Fluttershy evil, she was the only pony who's nature was so true that she didn't fall for his tricks.  Yet, a quick seminar from a minotaur, and she's suddenly beating people up and saying mean things?  I kept hoping that it would turn out that the minotaur had cast some sort of magic on her...  Although, I still would have felt like it stretched credibility for a random minotaur to have an easier time magically turning Fluttershy evil than Dischord did.

I guess I did enjoy the classic gag with Pinkie Pie switching roles mid-argument to trick her opponent into giving her what she wants.  And the idea of Angel being such a picky eater was cute.  But I can't help but feel like this episode was a horrible betrayal of Fluttershy's nature.  It started out by claiming she was too much of a pushover (plausible), followed that up with turning her really mean with a little bit of assertiveness training (a terrible contradiction of her personality as established in the rest of the show), and concluded by claiming that, actually, she was perfectly capable of standing up for herself when it really mattered all along (a confusing contradiction of the beginning of the episode) or else that the assertiveness training really had helped? (which would mean that she was refusing to pay the minotaur even though he really had helped her...).  The moral heart of this story was a sad mixed-up mish mash, and the character arc was either non-existent (the ability to stand up for herself was inside Fluttershy all along) or kind of troubling (assertiveness can make you evil, but you should go ahead and get it and then blame the person who gave it to you for turning you evil, even though, in the end, he really helped you out?).

Ug.

[Edit:  when I started writing this, no one else had posted yet.  That doesn't seem to be true now that I've finished.]
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Offline Ryffnah

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #324 on: March 05, 2012, 04:21:06 pm »
I think what I loved most was the trio of ponies featured in the episode. We haven't seen much in terms of the relationship between those three as a set. But they do seem like a realistic sub-group that would form within the group of 6. Come to think of it, AJ and RD have enough similarities that I can see them hanging out a lot outside the main group (and we've seen examples of that in the show as well). Leaving Twilight to just kinda... be there. Poor Twilight. At least she has her books. And Spike.

I did enjoy the way that they paired Rarity and Pinkie Pie in this episode.

I'm not too worried about Twilight though.  We've seen her being friends with each of the others individually before, perhaps especially Rarity.  It is neat to see how the different sets of ponies have different kinds of friendships.
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