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not-so-furry discussion => debate forum => Topic started by: animagusurreal on August 17, 2016, 07:33:49 am
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A Facebook friend recently re-posted a picture showing a man's arm tattooed with numbers, with a caption that reads, "Back when I studied the Holocaust in school, I remember thinking 'how did Hitler get over 6 million people to follow along blindly and not fight back?' Then I realized I'm watching my fellow Americans take the same path."
I know this person's political affiliation, so I know which side she's implying is going to turn into the Nazis. However, I have seen people on both sides use it against the other. I'm aware that it's not impossible for America (or any country) to devolve into some sort of totalitarian nightmare. However, these Nazi comparisons are used so often - and again, by BOTH SIDES - that they lose all meaning. It strikes me as disrespectful (albeit unintentionally) to the victims of the real Holocaust to use their experience as a catch-all political scare tactic in the present day. Even if such a terrible thing were to happen here, it would probably happen in a different way. For one thing, we aren't less than two decades out from being a hereditary monarchy, as Germany was at the time. Any thoughts?
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yep iv noticed that people tend to compare many political things to Nazi Germany. it starts getting pretty old, with both sides throwing it back and forth.
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I have no problem comparing Trump to a facist Nazi. He certainly acts like one. >:( >:( >:(
For one thing, we aren't less than two decades out from being a hereditary monarchy, as Germany was at the time.
Huh? Care to elaborate on this?
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History repeats itself. People don't change. When someone starts using the same tactics to manipulate people, I have no problem comparing them to previous parties that did the exact same things. People should always question when an authority does things shady or outright harmful.
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For one thing, we aren't less than two decades out from being a hereditary monarchy, as Germany was at the time.
Huh? Care to elaborate on this?
I don't think there's much to elaborate on. The German Empire rather abruptly became the Weimar Republic in 1918, for reasons which are fairly well-known (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I). Though I'm pretty sure there's more to Hitler's rise to power than the German people not being used to this newfangled idea of having elections.
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Unfortunately it's easy to turn an entire country into monsters. Take for instances fox news networks call to disrupt local government. We had normal, every day people screaming at city hall meetings all across our country. If you look at it from a social study view. People were getting arrested because their dictator told them to do something. As crazy as it sounds it is way to easy to turn normal thinking people into robots for a cause or believe. I remember seeing people with signs protesting health care. Fully believing this new form of healthcare would shut hospitals down. Fox news network has used this to their advantage. This network has used simple persuasion techniques to gather followers. People will follow anything. No matter what the cost.
Their newest slogans,
"Make America great again".
"Give us back our country."
Neither of these have any basis it fact. Are very open ended and up to personal interpretation. Or for followers of a movement. Your told what they mean. Is it fare to compare them to nazi? Yes. They are using techniques to create a following that will believe anything they are told. Trumps nomination is the direct result of this networks activity. And like any other organization they will continue to praise their poster child. People will continue to agree with them. No matter what.
The fear is all hype. For one thing even if trump gets elected he will NEVER have the same power hitler did. Our system of government is set up so no one branch can overpower the next. Then thee's the 2nd amendment. Or the fourth branch of a free government. I'm not going to go into the full argument. But will say this. Our forefathers where a LOT smarter than people give them credit for. And unlike before we are all connected. There is no longer 'use and them'.
America isn't the only country on earth right now with the same political uproar. Things in Europe are changing quickly. Here in America there has been all kinds of big changes. Healthcare reform. Gay marriage. One political party quickly falling apart. Christianity turning to hate and unforgiveness. Having a black president. Most people are very uncomfortable with change. So they gravitate to someone brash. Someone who promises to make things like they were. This has happened before. If people don't learn from the past then we are all in deep.
Now I'll get off my box and say this. The word nazi is way overused.
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History repeats itself. People don't change. When someone starts using the same tactics to manipulate people, I have no problem comparing them to previous parties that did the exact same things. People should always question when an authority does things shady or outright harmful.
I agree about questioning authority. However, these comparisons have become another manipulation tactic. And it's like The Boy Who Cried Wolf. When I hear a political figure compared to Nazis, I'm not shocked anymore. I'm just like, "Eh, them and everybody else."
Also, It's one thing to say, "This candidate is using manipulation tactics similar to those used by the Nazis," but it's quite another to say, (as some people have) "This candidate is using those tactics, therefore if elected they will definitely turn into Hitler, abolish Democracy, and begin constructing death camps."
Of course, the hyperbole isn't always limited to Nazi Germany. Once, I overheard a young Republican signature-gatherer outside Walmart talking to an older man. Standing outside this bustling capitalist big box store, he told the man that we are "basically living in Soviet Russia." The man nodded in agreement.
Unfortunately it's easy to turn an entire country into monsters. Take for instances fox news networks call to disrupt local government. We had normal, every day people screaming at city hall meetings all across our country. If you look at it from a social study view. People were getting arrested because their dictator told them to do something. As crazy as it sounds it is way to easy to turn normal thinking people into robots for a cause or believe.
Once, we stayed over as the guests of a family friend who was very into Fox News. This was during the 2008 election. Every night, this guy would sit there for literally hours on end watching the talking heads, shouting, "Listen to this guy. This guy knows what he's talking about. Did you hear that? He says Obama's going to [conspiracy theory]! He's right! He's right! See, I told you he knows what he's talking about!" He also claimed that because Obama was well liked, and Castro was well liked when he rose to power, Obama would turn into Castro. (I've seen the same concept used to compare Obama to Hitler and Stalin). The last time we saw him was after Obama was elected, and he was in the street in front of his house screaming racial epithets about the president. We haven't seen him since.
I remember seeing people with signs protesting health care. Fully believing this new form of healthcare would shut hospitals down...
This is another issue where I've seen where Nazis somehow come into play. "Socialized health care?! That's exactly how HITLER started!"
Their newest slogans,
"Make America great again".
"Give us back our country."
Neither of these have any basis it fact. Are very open ended and up to personal interpretation. Or for followers of a movement. Your told what they mean.
I agree, political slogans carry no true meaning for me. Movie poster taglines have more substance.
Is it fare to compare them to nazi? Yes. They are using techniques to create a following that will believe anything they are told. Trumps nomination is the direct result of this networks activity. And like any other organization they will continue to praise their poster child. People will continue to agree with them. No matter what.
See my reply to Loc above.
The fear is all hype. For one thing even if trump gets elected he will NEVER have the same power hitler did. Our system of government is set up so no one branch can overpower the next...
...Now I'll get off my box and say this. The word nazi is way overused.
Exactly. Thank you! :)
I don't think there's much to elaborate on. The German Empire rather abruptly became the Weimar Republic in 1918, for reasons which are fairly well-known (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I). Though I'm pretty sure there's more to Hitler's rise to power than the German people not being used to this newfangled idea of having elections.
Oh yes, I'm sure it was much more complicated than that. Basically, I was thinking of people who claim that what's happening in America today is exactly like what happened in Germany when the Nazis rose to power. That's just one example of how things were different.
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I have a neighbor who started watching fox. I told him he'll spend the rest of his life being angry about things that never happened and fearing things that never will. You can't watch that channel without seeing the words 'alone' 'outnumbered' and hearing one of them say they are the only ones you can trust. Or the phrase 'you decide'. They are a disease that is undermining this country.
Now back to the hitler thing. it's got to the point were it could replace 'that's way to gay'. Combined them and you'd get 'that's hitler' Both statements are ridiculous. This whole hitler thing is just another call to fear and hate. Way to much of that right now.
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It was the post world war one economy and humiliation that Germany suffered that gave
Hitler the path to the control of Germany.
My understanding is Hitler was a carasmatic speaker who went to the unenmployed and
others who felt disadvantage. His promises of jobs and a greater Germany was looked on
with favor by them. Even though the Nazi party was small it gained power with Hitlers
promises and intimidation. He blaimed the minorities for most of Germanys woes. Jews in
particular.
Our government has more protection against someone like Hitler taking over. It would take
some kind of national emergency to gain special powers for a president.
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The Nazis are the de-facto "evil" group to compare to. Basically an example of the dark side of humanity; it doesn't get much worse than being compared to Hitler and the Nazis or even Nazi propaganda. A lot of people in the 1930s during the Depression were at their wits end and Germany was being bombarded to pay war reparations with money they didn't have. The Weimar government couldn't handle the situation as they had never had a democratic government before and there were 10 political parties or so, so nothing got done efficiently. Along comes someone who promises to make things better, promises to take quick action and get people back to work and be able to put food on the table at night, and charisma is what drove people to follow Hitler because they had been at their wits end for years. It took years before people really listened to him and the Nazis didn't get power overnight.
Comparing what Trump is doing/saying to what Hitler did/said is ludicrous. Despite the fact I'm not a big fan of Trump, I do not see Trump consolidating all of his power, eliminating Congress and the Supreme Court, ripping up the constitution, make everyone salute him when he walks by, tell Americans to go out and kill immigrants......see where I'm headed? 21st America is nowhere near the same situation Germany was in at that time. Right now there is a good 60% that do not agree with Trump or his ideas.
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Comparing what Trump is doing/saying to what Hitler did/said is ludicrous. Despite the fact I'm not a big fan of Trump, I do not see Trump consolidating all of his power, eliminating Congress and the Supreme Court, ripping up the constitution, make everyone salute him when he walks by, tell Americans to go out and kill immigrants......see where I'm headed? 21st America is nowhere near the same situation Germany was in at that time. Right now there is a good 60% that do not agree with Trump or his ideas.
Trump may not be eliminating Congress or the Constitution, raising his right arm in salute, etc., etc., but you got to admit that his "tone" and "rhetoric" shares some similarties to that of Hitler. And I find what Trump is doing totally disgusting. >:( No business leader and/or politician should stoop so low as to "copy" the actions of a dictator. Especially in America. >:(
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Can't argue there, he certain does not act or speak presidential, at least not what I think a president ought to talk like to the people he represents. That's why I said I'm not a fan of him. ;)
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I think it's the hate that Trump appears to feed on that makes him look
like Hitler.
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Sorry for bumping the thread. This is actually a phenomenon that has been nicknamed "Godwin's Law". ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
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While I think that generally when comparisons are made to Nazis or Hitler, it only serves to create more of a rift between the sides of an argument. But I don't like the idea of claiming that making such a comparison means you automatically lose the argument because occasionally such comparisons are actually valid.
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Actually Trump reminds me more of Putin than Hitler. Only thing is I think Putin is
smarter than Trump.. Hitler probably wasn't as smart as Trump is. Hitler was a small
man who knew how to manipulate people, but not much else. It's likely he really
believed the germantic blue eyed fair haired people were meant to rule the world.
Germany and the world would have been better off if Hitler had stayed a artistic painter,
perhaps he wasn't very good at it.
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Actually Trump reminds me more of Putin than Hitler. Only thing is I think Putin is
smarter than Trump.. Hitler probably wasn't as smart as Trump is. Hitler was a small
man who knew how to manipulate people, but not much else. It's likely he really
believed the germantic blue eyed fair haired people were meant to rule the world.
Germany and the world would have been better off if Hitler had stayed a artistic painter,
perhaps he wasn't very good at it.
i kinda have to say that the whole thing with hitler, and nazi germany was kinda a good thing.
to me the good things is that it helped take germany out of the mess it was in after WW1, taught the lesson that punishing someone who did something bad might not always work out as it seems, created many new technologies (jet engine, computer, radar, nuclear power, liquid fuel engines, solid fuel engines, ect.)
as for hitler's motives i am pretty sure that he had mental health issues, and i have a feeling that he had a really bad experience with a/some jewish people. there is also the chance that he was really pissed off at what happened to germany after WW1 so he just came up with that stuff to get the german people to like themselves more.
imo he fixed germany, but if the western nations didnt destroy germany after WW1 everything could have been fine. as for hitler's paintings they are actually pretty nice.
as for putin, and trump they actually do seem like each other (though putin seems to have far less of an ego problem, and seems far more formal)
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(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg)
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:o GrayWolf, I think you've been spending too much time on /pol/. Go spend some time in the real world. It's that bright place outside the windows. (But be careful what you say there.)
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forgot to at the word kinda in the first sentience. of course yes WW2 was a bad thing, but at least we learned to watch out for something.
could have typed up that post better, and i didnt mean to make it sound like its a good thing that all that stuff happened (i was just saying the benefits of it happening)
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Graywolf does have a point. Regardless of the atrocities of war, we cannot say we don't appreciate many of the things that have been a direct result of conflict. I'm not saying that justifies warfare though.
Hitler did lead Germany out of many of its problems, but only to lead it straight into worse ones unnecessarily. Germany was treated pretty harshly at Versailles, whether or not they were deserving of it. Not only did that compound their losses, but it helped to steer the country's allegiance towards that of the Nazi regime.
I don't know how Hitler wouldn't have mental health issues to be honest. Not only was he prone to raging tempers and egoism, but he was diabolically prudish and obsessed with washing his hands. From what I know he was raised in a really bad household and fighting in World War I probably didn't help out much.
Hitler, albeit the poster-child of insane genocidal dictators, was actually an astonishingly talented painter, in-spite of being rejected by the artistic academy he was trying to get into: you can find his paintings with a quick search on Google. Shame he took the direction of life that he did. I think it illustrates very well though, that even as genuine as some passions might be, it leaves nothing to say about the reasonableness of those passions. They don't necessarily bode well for the rest of the world.
Putin is a bit more of a bully whereas Trump is a bit more bossy, I'd say. Putin keeps a more reserved image - Trump is a bit more bombastic.
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Wars do help create new inventions that help win the war.
It all gets back to people being more re active than proa ctive.
Necessity does drive invention.
To say it's a good thing in the end is not being fair to those who
died or lost family much less those who ended up with serious
handicaps. Mental and physical.
Hitler did improve Germany, but at what cost? WWII cost over 50 million lives.
I hope Trump if he is elected doesn't repeat it due to his lack of experience
and lack of emotional control.
Trump is an authoritarian like Putin and other dictators, though Nixon was he did a
better job of hiding the fact. Untill watergate that is.
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Godwin's law simply states a rule of probability, not a rule on detecting fallacy.
Ultimately there will be real, valid, comparisons, and.... completely ridiculous comparisons (and of course everything in between).
Also in other news, it seems like Trump is becoming a stand-in for hitler in arguments in the EU :P
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Further new developments.
Recently, an animator I admire shared this on her facebook page:
"'Nice people make the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than "politics." They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren't nice people? Resisters.' - Naomi Shulman"
The person she re-posted this from (who is not Naomi Shulman) added the comment, "I'm not okay with you being 'over politics.'" ("I didn't mean to share the stupid tagline," said my animator friend when I mentioned this.)
Now, maybe I'm reading too much into this, but to me this seems to say, "Anyone who isn't into politics is a Nazi." The previous poster also seems to be equating herself with the "resisters" - i.e., people who actually resisted the actual Nazis. Either this person was just sharing something on facebook, which hardly makes her a Nazi resister, or she's advocating for resistance against a democratically elected government. You know who else did that? The Nazis. Years before they were elected into power, they attempted to stage a coup. You see how easy it is to link everything with the Nazis when you use broad terms?
One of commenters said, "If you don't do something to stop it then you become part of the problem..." Again, I could be reading to much into it, but when I see this, all I can picture is Gaston yelling "IF YOU'RE NOT WITH US, YOU'RE AGAINST US!"
My animator friend previously posted that she feels we're living in a dystopian novel. When I questioned that, because I don't think free discussion of such a question would be allowed in a dystopian setting, she told me I had the wrong definition of "dystopian", though she never said what hers was.
Then today, my former newspaper editor posted a list of bad things happening in the world, starting off with:
"Groups are quoting Hitler and openly giving Nazi salutes near the White House..."
This is INCREDIBLY vague. I'm sure I could do some research and find out more detail, but it seems like I'm just supposed to assume Trump advocates what these "groups" are doing and that this is a sign he'll become the next Hitler.
But recently, right here on Furtopia, someone posted this, claiming the Democrats are the proto-Nazis:
The fire bombing of Trump's campaign center is reminiscent of Hitler's rise to power (complete with socialist ideals)...
Again, taking a vague reading of news events - "Trump's campaign center" was in fact an empty Republican office in North Carolina, and as far as I know, the Democratic Party was never linked to the bombing - and making it fit a Nazi-related narrative. Also, "socialist ideals?" It's entirely possible to be in favor of social programs and not be a Nazi.
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Well, if this isn't Nazi-like, then I don't know what is. Notice some of the people in the video raising their right arms in a Nazi type salute. >:(
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/21/politics/alt-right-gathering-donald-trump/index.html?sr=fbCNN112216alt-right-gathering-donald-trump0203AMVODtopLink&linkId=31421304
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We might be surprised how many Closet haters we have in the country. Many
people often make remarks about not liking one thing or another. So if the
environment appeared they would come right out and join the crowd.
Making references to Hitler is easy for some one like Trump. His ideas fit
to some degree. But i am inclined to think he is more like Putin than Hitler.
A man who feels total control by the super rich is best for him and us all.
Of course Hitler wanted control. He felt germany should rule the world. To
prove the blue eyed fair haired german race was supreme. Trump just feels
knowing how to be rich makes you best to run the world. That is if your
a white man.
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It was over a year ago when I heard someone address some students who thought it clever to lable as Nazis anyone they disagreed with. Under the Nazis--if you followed their rules, they pretty much left you alone. Under the Communists--One could be a party member and they would kill you anyway.
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Sorry for neglecting this thread for so long.
New development. I just saw a trailer for a recent propaganda film that uses the return of Nazism as a scare tactic...and it's from the right wing, directed, produced and co-written by Trump strategist Steve Bannon. It's called "Torchbearer", and it stars Phil Robertson of "Duck Dynasty" fame/infamy. I'd post a link, but some of it is actually a bit graphic. Half of the trailer attempts to scare the viewer with random footage of Nazis, Islamic terrorists, a French Revolution guillotine* re-enactment, "In God We Trust" disappearing from a dollar bill, and Miley Cyrus "twerking", with the implication that these are all more-or-less the same thing. "In the absence of God," Robertson's voice-over claims, "the man with the biggest stick determines your worth." (Ironically, on the poster, Robertson poses with two HUGE "sticks" - a rifle and a machine gun. And of course, a Bible). Then, the second half of the trailer shows Robertson walking around in the woods, intercut with triumphant footage, like soldiers storming the beach on D-Day. In the most hilarious/sad/weird/crazy moment, they cut directly from a shot of Civil Rights icon Martin Luther King, Jr., to one of Robertson - a man who was quoted as saying "They were happy, they were Godly; nobody was singing the blues," regarding blacks in the pre-civil rights South. The point is that none of this has to make sense. All that's required is that the "good" imagery is associated with your side, and the "bad" imagery associated with your opponents. This is why I have a problem with the constant Nazi comparisons from both sides.
(*Over 200 years ago, some people believed that if "Atheist" Thomas Jefferson was elected president, they would have to "hide their Bibles." They also believed that he would throw out the constitution and lead a French-style revolution in America, complete with guillotines. Neither of these things happened.)
Meanwhile, on the liberal side...Just now, one of my facebook friends, a brilliant artist, posted a quote from the son of a mayor under the Nazi regime, predicting that the Nazi culture would repeat itself. The implication is that because he said this, that means it's repeating itself right now. This is the same kind of logic used to claim that all manner of vague prophecies are coming true. My facebook friend added, "only this time we might not recover." No reason why listed. The traditional chorus of agreements followed in the comments.
It was over a year ago when I heard someone address some students who thought it clever to lable as Nazis anyone they disagreed with. Under the Nazis--if you followed their rules, they pretty much left you alone. Under the Communists--One could be a party member and they would kill you anyway.
I don't understand this. The concept of living in Nazi Germany or any totalitarian Communist government are both unappealing to me. "If you followed the rules?" The rules included, "don't be Jewish," "don't be a Gypsy," "don't be gay," and so on. How were you supposed to follow those rules, if you were any of those things?
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I think some of these far right people who like to hate everyone
but those they think are normal. Should have to live under a
dictatorship as a minority in that society. I am sure they wouldn't
like it.
Strangely enough some of them wouldn't be changed at
all once returned. It's the dark side of human nature we
all have to deal with.
Those of us who see the hate for what it is need to stand up and be
counted. Otherwise the haters will make life miserable for everyone
else. People like the Nazis are all around us. Most of them hide their
hate untill someone leads them out into the open.
I have watched Trumps ralleys on TV. He feeds on the cheers from his
supporters. I acually think he could say "I will have (a group) killed".
and they would cheer for a moment or two, some even longer. He is like a
cult leader. People can do terrible things if they are convinced it's the right thing
to do. He like Hitler plays on peoples fears and convences them certain people
were hurting their country. Jews, Gypsies, gays. blacks, ect.
Hitler grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and was treated badly by Jewish
kids and bullies. So he learned to hate them. He didn't start out as a bad person,
but failures, mistreatment, and mistakes transformed him into a madman who
caused the deaths of millions. Other people could and would do the same if
given the chance. Unfortunately it's not really that hard to do given the right
conditions, and a charismatic leader.