Obama signs new health bill into law.

[Kodakk]

i know this sounds stupid, but i am so numb to what "our" government does anymore. everything just seems so far out of our hands, and there really isnt much we can do to change anything about it. sure, there are those that believe writing to the united states whoever will actually do something, but i chose to wake up and realize what the government is actually coming to.

when i get charged for something, then i will be upset. untill then...what ever.

[Kodakk]

^ you sir, are educated. it would be nice if everyone could see how things were, but they wont. i dont drink tap water for many reasons, but the main reason is because they put fluoride in it. do you know what the nazis used to subdue certain people? fluoride... just saying. its just another form of croud controll.

back on topic. i here they were going to tax us for this, is this correct? if they do its "oh canada" for me.

[Drake Blackpaw]

^ you sir, are educated. it would be nice if everyone could see how things were, but they wont. i dont drink tap water for many reasons, but the main reason is because they put fluoride in it. do you know what the nazis used to subdue certain people? fluoride... just saying. its just another form of croud controll.

back on topic. i here they were going to tax us for this, is this correct? if they do its "oh canada" for me.

Canada has government provided healthcare.   

[Avan]

Actually, the whole flouride thing in america (not done any more) came from the discovery that flouride (in certain quantities; more dilute than the nazis used it at) vastly increases the strength of your teeth... Giving you metaphorical teeth of steel. Unfortunatly that little metaphore goes so far as to have matching colors... Yeah, people's teeth got strong, but they also turned grey, so there was obviously unhappyness and they stopped the practice.

That was just a result of attempting to implement stuff that hadn't been thoroughly tested. At least it wasn't thalidomide or some other thing with clearly dangerous side effects (grey teeth are just a cosmetic problem that I think can be repaired... thalidomide caused severe permanent birth defects)

And religion, at least in the US, still holds a big sway, considering over 52 or 57% of americans identify as christians alone. That was mostly a result of the cold war, where being religious ended up being patriotic

[Acton]

Denis Preager is right the  bigger the government  the smaller the individual.
Not only I am forced to by health insurance or fined I will only be allowed  and though a government regulated  exchange. If what I was is not in the exchange too bad. Forget what I think about  my needs  the Government has decoded for me. Soon Healthcare will have to be rationing. There is not enough rich to rape. A binger telling where Health care takeover is going is reducing of program  that empower  personal choice including reduction in  HSA and  Flex Spending accounts. Taking over a lager portion of my life thing to provide insurance to 15% that does not have it.

[Kodakk]

^ you sir, are educated. it would be nice if everyone could see how things were, but they wont. i dont drink tap water for many reasons, but the main reason is because they put fluoride in it. do you know what the nazis used to subdue certain people? fluoride... just saying. its just another form of croud controll.

back on topic. i here they were going to tax us for this, is this correct? if they do its "oh canada" for me.

Canada has government provided healthcare.   

true, but how much do they charge you for it in taxes? it still seems a little cloudy, but from what i hear it sounds like we will get charged for this. there is also the other side of this rumor that says aslong as you make less than $200K a year, you will not be charged anymore than you all ready are. florida allready takes a tax out of my paycheck for something medical related, i better not get charged again. it would be one thing if i actually would use the healthcare, but i dont believe i need to be taken to a doctor so they can tell me what i "need".

[Alsek]

And religion, at least in the US, still holds a big sway, considering over 52 or 57% of americans identify as christians alone. That was mostly a result of the cold war, where being religious ended up being patriotic

Do not confuse religion with nationalism.



Anywho,  there's also a very large amount of hormones in the tap water,  namely estrogen.

[Kodakk]

^they put everything into everything now-a-days, dont they?


btw, inb4civilwar.

[Avan]

And religion, at least in the US, still holds a big sway, considering over 52 or 57% of americans identify as christians alone. That was mostly a result of the cold war, where being religious ended up being patriotic

Do not confuse religion with nationalism.



Anywho,  there's also a very large amount of hormones in the tap water,  namely estrogen.

I'm not confusing the two, it's just that it was a common notion at the time, that by being religious, you were in opposition of the communists, who were seen as the enemies of religion.

Flouride isn't a horomone btw.

[Kodakk]

Flouride isn't a horomone btw.

HAHAHA, i would hope people knew this.

[Avan]

Flouride isn't a horomone btw.

HAHAHA, i would hope people knew this.

Yeah, just making sure people don't get them mixed up, given the context.

[Narei Mooncatt]

^ you sir, are educated. it would be nice if everyone could see how things were, but they wont. i dont drink tap water for many reasons, but the main reason is because they put fluoride in it. do you know what the nazis used to subdue certain people? fluoride... just saying. its just another form of croud controll.

back on topic. i here they were going to tax us for this, is this correct? if they do its "oh canada" for me.

Canada has government provided healthcare.   

true, but how much do they charge you for it in taxes? it still seems a little cloudy, but from what i hear it sounds like we will get charged for this.

Any time a government pays for any program, the only way they can pay for it is to raise taxes, because they don't understand the concept of living on their means. I wouldn't look to more medicare and social security taxes to be taken from your paycheck. That would be too obvious. They will simply tax products and services more like the tanning salon issue I mentioned a little while back, meaning you will be paying more for them at the cash register.

[Kodakk]

^ahhh makes sense! kinda like the junk food tax and all that jazz. almost like a higher sales tax, am i getting this right? if so that really isnt much of a big deal to me, florida did this a while ago. they dont charge city, state, or county tax, they simply raised the sales tax to 7%

[CiceroKit]

First off, many of the countries people are announcing that they plan on moving to following this bill passing already have universal healthcare... many of which collect 40% of each person's wages to pay for the plan. There is no such tax affiliated with the bill that just passed here. Basically, healthcare is being paid for by everyone, sick and healthy alike. When everyone has to pay for coverage, there is more money in the pool. Health insurance premiums are not a tax, they are payment for a service. Sure, the service is mandatory, but there are also different levels of coverage. If you are healthy and want to keep costs down, opt for a plan with a higher deductible and less coverage on certain things. You have that right. You always have.

Secondly, nothing is solved by apathy. It would be easy if not caring could solve a problem, but the world doesn't work that way.

I just wanted to share the following video for anyone who hasn't seen it. This makes me cringe. It's not that I can't believe that people just care so little about anyone but themselves, but that these people were behaving in such a shameful manner to a man with Parkinson's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dRbP8


On an aside, estrogen is only found in bottled water. The BPH in the plastic leaks into the water and creates a synthetic form of estrogen. What you might be thinking of which is found in tap water is chlorine, which is added to kill bacteria. Unfortunately, it is not the only thing toxic in unfiltered tap water, since mercury and arsenic can also be found in tap water in many locations. But that is more because of the overall pollution of all waterways in this country and the overall pollution of the water table. Don't like it? Join a clean-up effort in your community. In the meantime, filter.

[Kodakk]

the reason i choose apathy in this situation is simply because we have no controll over the subject. this health care issue is just the tip of the iceburg for me. i have wanted to move for a LONG time due to many reasons. certain reasons that will lead me to be called such things as "one of those crazy conspirators." unfortunately, theyre not conspiracies, theyre truth.

another reason would be the inevitable problems that will arrise from this. think about all of the vandalism and threats that have been happening. im not saying that civil war is inevtiable, but probable? yes.

[Kobuk]

There's a lot of things that people don't like in America and/or the world. But here's something I heard a few weeks ago from a co-worker:
"Good healthcare is better than bad healthcare. But bad healthcare is better than no healthcare at all."
No matter what happens in this country, we'll never see the perfect health care system for everyone. Best to just take what you can get and afford, and deal with it.

[Sskessa]

Thank you, Cicero, for clearing up those things.

Also, Acton, do realize you're already paying for other people's health care precisely because they're uninsured? When a homeless person gets hit by a car/beat up by drunks/ODs on meth, that homeless person will still be treated by hospitals. Who pays for that care? Certainly not the homeless guy. Everyone else's bills are increased to make up for the people who can't pay.

Personally, I don't mind at all paying for people who can't afford it. I'd just like to do it in the most efficient way possible.

[Furlong]

the reason i choose apathy in this situation is simply because we have no controll over the subject. this health care issue is just the tip of the iceburg for me. i have wanted to move for a LONG time due to many reasons. certain reasons that will lead me to be called such things as "one of those crazy conspirators." unfortunately, theyre not conspiracies, theyre truth.

another reason would be the inevitable problems that will arrise from this. think about all of the vandalism and threats that have been happening. im not saying that civil war is inevtiable, but probable? yes.

I have to disagree with you on this.  Civil war is not even close to being a realistic option in this case.  For one, several US states, my home state of Massachusetts among them, have state level health care.  While it is not perfect, as Kobuk said, bad healthcare is better then no healthcare. 

And, while a lot of people ate threatening violence, I would argue that most Americans are reasonable people, and will not rise up in revolution, but will do what we hav always done.  Vote out those who we disagree with. 

[RedneckFur]

I've never known of a goverment program that lived within its means.

I'm pretty certain that within years of its creation, The goverment healthcare will raise everyone's taxes, and the care given will be of lower standard than it is today.

I spent many years of my life living without health insurance, and I came across something that really suprised me.  When I did go to see a doctor, I'd tell him, at the beginning of the visit, that I did not have any insurance, and would be paying cash.  I ended up getting a very reduced rate because the doctor didnt have to go through the headache of insurance forms, claims, waiting on paperwork, phone calls, etc. Dental surgeries costing nearly $1000 under insurance, I would get for about $190.

I've had procedures that nomrally cost several hundred when using insurance, done for less than $80.00. 

Health insurance is something fairly new in the US, and prior to the exsistence of health insurance, health care was drastically cheaper.  Just ask your older, rural doctors who were used to dealing with entire communities of people without insurance.

Its the nature of the medical profession, when dealing with insurance, to charge the maximum amount possible for each prodcedure just because of the difficulties of dealing with insurance companies.  The new health care bill does NOTHING to solve that problem. It only makes everyone contribute to an already broken system.   

[Drake Blackpaw]

I've never known of a goverment program that lived within its means.

I'm pretty certain that within years of its creation, The goverment healthcare will raise everyone's taxes, and the care given will be of lower standard than it is today.

I spent many years of my life living without health insurance, and I came across something that really suprised me.  When I did go to see a doctor, I'd tell him, at the beginning of the visit, that I did not have any insurance, and would be paying cash.  I ended up getting a very reduced rate because the doctor didnt have to go through the headache of insurance forms, claims, waiting on paperwork, phone calls, etc. Dental surgeries costing nearly $1000 under insurance, I would get for about $190.

I've had procedures that nomrally cost several hundred when using insurance, done for less than $80.00. 

Health insurance is something fairly new in the US, and prior to the exsistence of health insurance, health care was drastically cheaper.  Just ask your older, rural doctors who were used to dealing with entire communities of people without insurance.

Its the nature of the medical profession, when dealing with insurance, to charge the maximum amount possible for each prodcedure just because of the difficulties of dealing with insurance companies.  The new health care bill does NOTHING to solve that problem. It only makes everyone contribute to an already broken system.   

First, I would say that you are lucky to have a doctor and a dentist who change their rates based on paying cash.  Where I grew up, I could probably find a doctor who would do the same, but that was a very rural area.  Where I live now, I highly doubt it.

As I stated before, I support the health care legislation.  However, I also agree with you that there is a lot in the current system that is broken and needs to be fixed.  Your last paragraph points to a big problem.  I would add that doctors are paid by the procedure, not by the quality of care is another thing that inflates health care costs.

[Furlong]

I've never known of a goverment program that lived within its means.

I'm pretty certain that within years of its creation, The goverment healthcare will raise everyone's taxes, and the care given will be of lower standard than it is today.

I spent many years of my life living without health insurance, and I came across something that really suprised me.  When I did go to see a doctor, I'd tell him, at the beginning of the visit, that I did not have any insurance, and would be paying cash.  I ended up getting a very reduced rate because the doctor didnt have to go through the headache of insurance forms, claims, waiting on paperwork, phone calls, etc. Dental surgeries costing nearly $1000 under insurance, I would get for about $190.

I've had procedures that nomrally cost several hundred when using insurance, done for less than $80.00. 

Health insurance is something fairly new in the US, and prior to the exsistence of health insurance, health care was drastically cheaper.  Just ask your older, rural doctors who were used to dealing with entire communities of people without insurance.

Its the nature of the medical profession, when dealing with insurance, to charge the maximum amount possible for each procedure just because of the difficulties of dealing with insurance companies.  The new health care bill does NOTHING to solve that problem. It only makes everyone contribute to an already broken system.   

There is one problem with this.  That is that it depends on the goodwill of the doctor/dentist in question.  While I do acknowledge that the bill leaves a lot to be desired, if I did not already have health insurance, I would be glad to at least have something.  It's not perfect, but I do see it as a good starting point.

Basically, once you have the framework in place for a national health care system, then it becomes much easier to change the existing system, then to get a whole new one passed through congress. 

[Narei Mooncatt]

I hear all the time about doctors that offer discounts on cash payments vs insurance claims for the same reasons Redneck listed, and also just to be nice. I will say the amount of a dicount may vary, but I do receive discounts do to my insurance plan only covering catistrophic (Commonly known as an HSA plan). I wouldn't expect to get some of the huge discounts as some people have, but I'd hazard a guess that most people with my kind of plan or just simply paying cash to the doctor will be able to get a discounted rate.

Basically, once you have the framework in place for a national health care system, then it becomes much easier to change the existing system...

And much easier to corrupt it as well. I can understand people pointing to how other countries run their health care when wanting something similar. One thing no one that supports any kind of plan like this has yet to answer is what evidence do we have it would work with *our* particular government and trends in society without becoming just another failed program.

[Mianame]

I'm a little late to the party, so this might end up being a long post.

First of all; Cicero, you're amazing. I can't think of one point to argue or disagree with on the many you have brought up.

Its the nature of the medical profession, when dealing with insurance, to charge the maximum amount possible for each prodcedure just because of the difficulties of dealing with insurance companies.  The new health care bill does NOTHING to solve that problem. It only makes everyone contribute to an already broken system.  

I do agree with this point whole-heartedly. And, in fact, sometimes it's even worse than this. For instance, my mother works at a hospital as a respiratory therapist. She's on call 24/7 to do EEGs, which have practically nothing to do with repiratory work. Why? Because they don't want to pay for another person to take care of it. The entire hospital is severely understaffed to keep costs of running the place low while jacking up the number of procedures as you said. My mother has already told me about how over the past three years, doctors who would once give a normal amount of tests for their patients have more than tripled their numbers as late. Such as the EEG example where if someone comes in with a sprained ankle, they get an EEG(a bit of an extreme example, but it really isn't that far fetched in that place). And people who don't have health care are given the normal treatment that one should receive and are promptly sent on their way. I'm not saying every hospital is this bad, but it's certainly a problem that needs to be addressed. I would have to say that it's my main sore point with the current health care bil that I, for the most part, agree with.

Basically, once you have the framework in place for a national health care system, then it becomes much easier to change the existing system...

And much easier to corrupt it as well. I can understand people pointing to how other countries run their health care when wanting something similar. One thing no one that supports any kind of plan like this has yet to answer is what evidence do we have it would work with *our* particular government and trends in society without becoming just another failed program.

Hold up a moment. Let me just point out that any time you give one person control over another, the ability for corruption begins. There is no way we can make a fail-safe system that doesn't have the problems of greedy people or people drunk on power or both. It's just not possible.

As for evidence, our entire government system is pretty unique as is. I highly doubt we had proof that the current health care system was going to work, especially since it isn't working. For this reason I believe in trial and error. When something doesn't work, let's go back and re-write it. But can't we at least give the thing a few years to see if the effects will be as tremendous and helpful as Obama believes they will be? The last thing we need to do is cut everything off and say "Well this just won't work" before we've even given it a real chance.

[Narei Mooncatt]

Hold up a moment. Let me just point out that any time you give one person control over another, the ability for corruption begins. There is no way we can make a fail-safe system that doesn't have the problems of greedy people or people drunk on power or both. It's just not possible.

Agreed! What makes this a worse issue is that having this control put on us at a national level gives us no option to get away from corruption unless we move out of the country, which isn't something most people would be able/willing to do. At least with our current system, or any system that puts more power to the people, and control in smaller local/state governments, it isn't near as hard to get away from such things. May not be easy, but it's a lot easier to move to another city than another country. Better yet, for the local citizens to band together to try and change things for themselves.

As for evidence, our entire government system is pretty unique as is. I highly doubt we had proof that the current health care system was going to work, especially since it isn't working. For this reason I believe in trial and error. When something doesn't work, let's go back and re-write it. But can't we at least give the thing a few years to see if the effects will be as tremendous and helpful as Obama believes they will be? The last thing we need to do is cut everything off and say "Well this just won't work" before we've even given it a real chance.

I agree with trial and error too, to a point. Again, let's keep it on a more local level, so if things don't work out, the damage isn't as bad. It also allows more people to explore more ideas, instead of everyone being lumped into one "all or nothing" type gamble.

[Mianame]

Agreed! What makes this a worse issue is that having this control put on us at a national level gives us no option to get away from corruption unless we move out of the country, which isn't something most people would be able/willing to do. At least with our current system, or any system that puts more power to the people, and control in smaller local/state governments, it isn't near as hard to get away from such things. May not be easy, but it's a lot easier to move to another city than another country. Better yet, for the local citizens to band together to try and change things for themselves.

I agree with trial and error too, to a point. Again, let's keep it on a more local level, so if things don't work out, the damage isn't as bad. It also allows more people to explore more ideas, instead of everyone being lumped into one "all or nothing" type gamble.

All right, I definitely understand your points now and like you, I agree to a certain extent. It makes sense that the larger an institute, the easier corruption will be. But at the same time I can't see implementing this particular bill on a small scale. Say we had the healthcare bill in Miami and Boca Raton opted to keep to the old ways. Then all of the healthy people that are making a good base and a lump sum of cash for the health agencies in Miami would up and pack their stuff to move to Boca Raton. What we would end up with then is Miami, land of the sick and unhealthy. Without the support of those in a higher, better position the entire idea falls apart, so if it's separated by city or state those needed to make the plan move on will likely be gone faster than a jack rabbit on a date.

Of course the big argument is if it is right to force these people to pay or not. Obviously they would want to leave for a reason, right? I can see how it could be considered wrong to make people do this in the land of the free of all places, but sometimes major changes to a nation require pulling the reluctant along with us. I'm not saying it's right; I'm just saying that it sometimes has to be done to make ideas of this magnitude succeed.

Plus, as many others have pointed out, we already are paying for these people with no insurance every time they have to visit a hospital. I think this new way will simply be that; a new way of paying for them.