Violence in Mexico.

[Kobuk]

For a long time, there has been increasing violence in Mexico in regards to gangs and druglords. This violence has culminated in probably well over 20-30,000 deaths just last year alone, or maybe in the last 2-3 years. I'm not really sure of the figures.  It's painfully obvious that the military and police forces in Mexico have their hands full in combating the drug and crime problems in that country. People are harassed, beaten, kidnapped, tortured, and killed on a daily basis in Mexico. No matter how old or young you are or whether you are male or female, the gangs and druglords don't care. If they come after you and want you dead, then you're dead. Or if you get caught in the crossfire accidentally or were in the wrong place at the wrong time, then they don't care. Human life means nothing to them.

What is everyone's opinion on the violence in Mexico. What can the gov't of Mexico do more to combat the problems it has? Are they doing enough? Should the U.S. get involved? If so, then how? Do you think the Mexican violence could spill over into the U.S., and how bad would it get? Do you forsee Mexico going "Martial Law" in the forseeable future and the country collapsing?

Staff note: Please be careful discussing any drugs/drug references in this topic per rule #'s 3 and 4 here:
http://forums.furtopia.org/index.php/topic,20851.0.html

[RedneckFur]

In all fairness, one must realise that Mexico uses the United States as a 'safety valve'... People in Mexico know if things get just too bad there, they can come to America and sneak across the border, and the Mexican goverment will help them to do so.  The Mexican govement likes this because it people who could otherwise cause resistance and uprisings out of the country, and also because the people that leave almost always send money back to Mexico to aid their families that do not leave.  As long as we are lax about imigration, this will continue to be a problem.  The US cannot be the Earth's, or even North America's saftey valve for long. Its a system thats doomed to failure.

In Mexico, the goverment is often in the hand of the drug dealing, and vice versa. There are many politicans in Mexico who take money and sugestions from the drug lords.  Its a problem that their goverment simply 'cracking down' isnt going to fix.  Its going to take the popluation of Mexico wanting change, and then standing up for it within their own country.  Coming here will not fix it, and praying for the Mexican police to solve the problem wont either.  Its going to take the Mexican people deciding that they will not accept the presence of drug lords, and the violent curture that surounds them.  They're going to remove the corrupt politicans in their goverment, hopefully by peaceful means, and elect people who are really intrested in the good of the nation

[DeltaFur]

RedneckFur, I really don't see a peaceful change like that happening. If the people want change badly enough, there is a large possibility that there will be a full-scale revolution. And it will be bloody. Which will suck for me, because I live about twenty minutes from the border. Commerce between the two countries will basically cease, which will mean TOUGH times for people who depend on international trade for their livelihoods, a.k.a. the residents of the border towns on both sides of the river/fence/wall/desert or whatever.


All in all, the next decade and a half or so looks a bit bleak.

[Sky Striker]

I think that things aren't going to get better in Mexico for a while. The government is very entwined in the drug dealing, and therefor the government can't really do much to stop the violence.

The U.S. is already involved, with people fleeing to America, but I do not think that the U.S. government should get involved. We are already so mixed up in the Middle East and our debt is astoundingly high. I believe that after we pull out of the Middle East that the U.S. should change to a loose isolationist policy until we get our own problems sorted out.

Once again, because the actual government of Mexico is involved in drugs I don't think that Mexico would go into place. However I do think that, if many of the politicians involved in drugs were exposed, that the people could revolt and the government collapse. Revolutions still happen.

As far as spilling over into the U.S, I don't think it's too likely. It would be very hard to transport drugs across the border in mass quantities, and because our government isn't entwined in drugs we would be much more able to stop any torture and violence.

[Serra Belvoule]

The issue here is more cultural than political, you know? In this country, the impunity rates are very high, because there's little to no social awareness and a large mass of corruption. That's one of the reasons I'm getting (pardon the expression) the hell outta there.
I've settled on Montreal for the time being, and I don't plan to come back any time soon.
Yes, violence has been present for a while now, but I don't think USA should be that worried. Whereas there's a lot of immigration, and the violence sites are close to USA, the government on USA is so different that it doesn't fit the position to allow such big things to go through.
You have to consider, though, that if Mexicans are spilling over the border is because USA neglected that on purpose at first (for cheap working force, among other reasons).
I do think the repercussions of what happens in Mexico will have influence on America (as a continent), since it is, after all, kind of a big country.
I don't like politics at all, you see. They make me sad.

[TashkentFox]

I doubt that the civilian government of Mexico can survive, I think it will probably collapse at some point in the next few years and the military will step into the void.

[Alsek]

Actually,  the violence already does spill into the United States.  El Paso has a reputation for the gang violence and killings.  There have been gang beheadings there. Crazy Mexico level violence happening right across the boarders.  People are kidnapped regularly and are dragged back across the boarder into Mexico.

I don't beleive the United states couldn't do anything about Mexico if we wanted to.  Our military can't spread out over a country that big and police it.

The only thing that IS under out control is the drug lords' income,  and we refuse to do anything to properly stop that.

[Shabbernigdo]

we should police our own country and patrol the borders. What they do in mexico is there problem but once in the usa we should hunt them down and just terminate them.

Known drug lords / gang members etc etc 

personally im all for the border fence to try and keep some of this out of our country.
Sentry towers manned by snipers along the fence would be nice too. 

enter the country legaly and its ok but try and cross illegaly and get picked off.

[Narei Mooncatt]

About 2-3 years ago or so we had a pilot program. It allowed certain Mexican based trucking companies into the U.S. beyond the current 50 mile limit (where they would then transfer the load to US carriers). It allowed them to make deliveries at the final destination in the US and then take a load back. Big uproars were had for multiple reasons that aren't related to this thread, but long story short the program was shut down and funding cut. Now Mexico has been putting tariffs and pressure on the US to completely open the boarder to Mexican trucking companies and vice versa. There's also programs in the works that would allow some of those carriers to get pre-approvals for customs and such for easier crossings. There are also no reliable databases for us to check the validity of Mexican equivalent of a commercial drivers license and backgrounds. Just something to think about when it comes to the Mexican drug lords trying to get drugs and people into the U.S. and risking spreading their reach.

I beg to differ when people say what happens in Mexico is their problem and not one we should worry about.

[Shabbernigdo]

About 2-3 years ago or so we had a pilot program. It allowed certain Mexican based trucking companies into the U.S. beyond the current 50 mile limit (where they would then transfer the load to US carriers). It allowed them to make deliveries at the final destination in the US and then take a load back. Big uproars were had for multiple reasons that aren't related to this thread, but long story short the program was shut down and funding cut. Now Mexico has been putting tariffs and pressure on the US to completely open the boarder to Mexican trucking companies and vice versa. There's also programs in the works that would allow some of those carriers to get pre-approvals for customs and such for easier crossings. There are also no reliable databases for us to check the validity of Mexican equivalent of a commercial drivers license and backgrounds. Just something to think about when it comes to the Mexican drug lords trying to get drugs and people into the U.S. and risking spreading their reach.

I beg to differ when people say what happens in Mexico is their problem and not one we should worry about.

Stuff like this is why all cargo should be checked.   
If the mexican government is so incompetent that they cant control there own country what do they expect from the US?    go over and police it for them?

[Kobuk]

If Mexico ever wants to have a fighting chance of getting things under control and beating back these drug lords/gangs, then one of the major things they need to do is stop the corruption in gov't, Police, and Military levels. Bribes, kickbacks, payoffs, etc. runs rampant in that country and the drug lords have their tentacles in nearly all levels of Mexican gov't.

[Alsek]

@Kobuk

To my understanding bribes are practically apart of the culture there now.  You don't do any business on any level in the private sector or with the government without some form of bribe being involved.  "Stopping the corruption," is kind of an easy said than done kind of situation there now.  Who is going to create and enforce such laws,   the corrupt cops and politicians?

[Serra Belvoule]

If the mexican government is so incompetent that they cant control there own country what do they expect from the US?    go over and police it for them?

Yes, yes they are.
They're a bunch of incompetent fools.

[Arbutus]

@Kobuk

To my understanding bribes are practically apart of the culture there now.  You don't do any business on any level in the private sector or with the government without some form of bribe being involved.  "Stopping the corruption," is kind of an easy said than done kind of situation there now.  Who is going to create and enforce such laws,   the corrupt cops and politicians?

This is entirely true - both in Mexico and in a lot of other non-First World countries too. I've never been to Mexico, but I've had a lot of experience with that in Russia... bribery is just an accepted part of life there, and if you don't pay up, there is conveniently a huge bureaucracy in place to make sure you don't get what you need. (I definitely bribed a Russian police officer once to get out of a sticky situation. )

A couple of days ago, an official admitted that since the beginning of the year, almost 10 percent of the Mexican federal police force had been fired for corruption and links to the drug cartels. Let me say that again, in all caps and with line breaks:

TEN

PERCENT.

On one hand, it's good that such measures are being taken, but on the other hand, the scale of them makes it clear that there's not a chance of rooting out Mexican corruption for good. It's way too pervasive, and it's been institutionalized for way too long.

[Alsek]

TEN

PERCENT.

I'm sure that's the tip of the iceberg.  Just the ones who got caught.

[Serra Belvoule]

TEN

PERCENT.

I'm sure that's the tip of the iceberg.  Just the ones who got caught.

Nah, just the ones they wanted to get rid off, even if they weren't corrupt at all.

It's a big messed up system, anyway.
In USA, being a policeman is a decently paid job, respectable and all. Hey, if a police car is a certain model, sales on said model have been proven to rise.
In Mexico, they make the policemen pay for their own bullets, and their barely make a living out of their pays, and they're widely and hugely disrespected, hated and insulted. Again with the policecar example, whichever model patrols are using are guaranteed to take a steep crash on their sales.
Now you see a little more on the "why"