Author Topic: Religion and Children  (Read 9362 times)

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Offline Yip

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2010, 02:22:21 am »
More likely it would be best to have TOK type classes very early on in childhood, to raise them to be logical, critical thinkers from the start.
I completely agree. Critical thinking skills are essential. And children should be taught these skills early on so that they are better able to make their own decisions about things as they grow older.

Offline Sigurd Volsung

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2010, 03:36:39 am »
Not if the views they are trying to embed into their childs mind is harmful. Take a look at the WBC, for example.  Parental rights should end the moment something harmful to the child is introduced. If there are laws against parents naming their child derogitory names upon birth (and rightfully so) then the same should be applied to extreme beliefs that are proven to be harmful.
There is definitely a line that is crossed at some point. For example, kids that die of easily treatable ailments because their parents refuse to get them proper medical attention and instead insist on relying solely on prayer. I know it's their belief and all, but it ends up being the same as negligence.

Happened to a kid I grew up with.

When people look say that God will heal their children it makes me think back to that great TV show M*A*S*H in one episode a girl falls in the mud and hits her head causing a brain hemorrhage, the man who brings her in says something to the affect of, "God thank you for providing these men of medicine and their training in the hour of this child's need." or something to that affect. In another episode Hawkeye recounts something one of his professors in med school said "It's God who cures the patient, the doctor just picks up the check" he then goes on to say that God must be working through him as he is able to do things in surgery that he just isn't good enough to do. When you consider this concept then the proper thing to tell parents who pray to God to save their children instead of bringing them to a doctor is that the doctor was given his knowledge by God and acts as the instrument for God's work. Personally I think it's bull, but you should tell them it anyway.

As far as raising kids up with religion. My parents regret that they didn't raise me with at least some religion because of the fact that I turned onto an angry Antitheist. They at times wished that they had instead brought me to the local Unitarian Universalist Church down the street. I probably would have ended up with the same beliefs I have now but I wouldn't have been so hateful growing up and would have been far better adjusted. The other reason that they wished they had brought me to Church would be the sense of community that it would have instilled. When I took a religions class in college I did a paper on the Unitarian Church and for research purposes went to a couple of services, I must say I loved it, and I wished my parents had done me the favor when I was a kid, I probably would have been much happier as a child if they had.
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Offline ominipotentgoldfish

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2010, 10:10:51 am »
Well, my parents have always been rather light on religion.  They've never really taken me to church (though they did have me baptized Lutheran, which bothers me), and religion never really played a role in my life.

Now, I've had a few experiences with religion in my time, and honestly, it seems that most of it was aimed to try to tell me, "God is the best thing EVAR and if you disagree, even a little, YOU'RE GOING TO HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!"

It turned me off slightly at first, and as I became a more free thinking being, it turned me off religion entirely.  Because it's so forceful.  Everyone thinks that they're right, and everyone else is wrong (except, from what I've seen from Lutherans, who seem pretty laid back.) 

tl;dr : Religion isn't for kids.

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Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2010, 09:54:03 am »
I think children should be taught about what religion is, an what they would mean, and maybe even taught the family religion; however, this (in my opinion) should be a free, non-impositive, non-"Brainwashing", and non-fanatic teaching.
I do not like religions as a whole, but I do believe every religion has something to add to a humane behavior, morals, ethics, etc. If you allow a child to see what different religions have to offer they will be prepared to live in a world with multicultural beliefs, creeds and voices.
Again, I do not like religion, but I was raised in a Catholic environment and I don't think that stunted my growth but actually nurtured it. I've been agnostic for about ten years now (consciously speaking) and I thank the chance I had to learn what spirituality is.
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Offline Foxxhoria

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2010, 04:01:16 am »
My parents never really raised me as anything in particular, they don't seem to hold any particular belief (at least not that they practice).  I was however christened (as a Methodist I guess? It was in a Methodist church) and have been to church about once or twice in my life (even participated in a Holy Communion :) ).  My grandma was very religious though, and maybe that was why I got christened (but she was the quiet type, and even though she seemed almost afraid of Harry Potter, she loved me whatever because I was her grandson).  It doesn't bother me that I was christened, and I don't see why it should, if you don't believe in God, then to you it's only water no?  I kinda like the fact that I've been christened possibly, because it means I've been participated in society.

So to me, I think you should follow the done customs and practices of the culture around you, even if you don't particularly believe in their core beliefs (it's like people celebrate Christmas).  It's taking part in society, showing the wider world around you, and I think that's good for a child, done as sort of a matter of course (but in a happy way, not a chorey way)  :)
Understanding leads to empathy,
Empathy leads to admiration,
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Optimism leads to disappointment,
Pessimism leads to joy,
although, with optimism you are happy almost all the time,
and pessimism you are sad almost all the time.

Where's the line between being bored and generally too lazy to do anything? :p

Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2010, 07:56:30 pm »
So to me, I think you should follow the done customs and practices of the culture around you, even if you don't particularly believe in their core beliefs (it's like people celebrate Christmas).  It's taking part in society, showing the wider world around you, and I think that's good for a child, done as sort of a matter of course (but in a happy way, not a chorey way)  :)
Well, the social integration part is one thing that's been overlooked, too. It's something you do to belong to a certain group, I suppose, and it does have some positive parts.
As they mentioned above, though, letting your kids starve because God will provide is just... well, you know.
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Offline Foxxhoria

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2010, 09:56:05 am »
letting your kids starve because God will provide is just... well, you know.
It's okay to believe pretty much whatever you wish so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  This clearly is doing that... :(
Understanding leads to empathy,
Empathy leads to admiration,
Admiration leads to love

Optimism leads to disappointment,
Pessimism leads to joy,
although, with optimism you are happy almost all the time,
and pessimism you are sad almost all the time.

Where's the line between being bored and generally too lazy to do anything? :p

Offline Avan

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2010, 10:17:22 am »
letting your kids starve because God will provide is just... well, you know.
It's okay to believe pretty much whatever you wish so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  This clearly is doing that... :(
On a technicality, it's not so much about holding the belief so much as acting upon the belief (which can include simply voicing it in certain cases), since otherwise you could hold the belief, but nobody would ever know about it or feel it if you never acted upon it.
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Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2010, 06:18:20 pm »
Well there's the thing... if you want to immolate yourself because of your religious beliefs, well go ahead; but doing it onto someone with little to no awareness nor choice is dangerous.

Edit: Nevermind, unappreciated link is unappreciated
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 06:33:14 pm by Serra Belvoule »
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Offline CiceroKit

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2010, 02:25:50 am »
I think the more parents push their kids into a religion, the more likely the kids are going to turn away from it in adulthood. Every adult I have ever known who was sent to Catholic school no longer goes to church... they don't go to any kind of religious service. I think that parents who wait until their children are old enough to decide for themselves are doing the right thing, but I think that expectation is somewhat unrealistic. For many people, religion is not just about belief in a deity. For many, it is about belonging to a tribe. Being raised as an Irish Catholic, it was as much about where our family came from as it was about attending mass. When I went for confirmation, the priest asked all of us to explore other beliefs and be sure that we wanted to be confirmed Catholic. Of course, there is parental pressure when your folks are paying for your catechism. I have explored a lot of religions and came to the conclusion that Catholicism was a part of who I was. It was ingrained into my psyche. I have since fallen away from the Church, even though I still believe in its teachings. My reasons for leaving had a lot more to do with failures of those in the highest ranks of the Church. That said, the point about child abuse is certainly relevant. I don't blame anyone for fearing a religious leader (not just a Catholic one - this happens in Protestant churches too) could abuse their office and cause bodily or psychological trauma to their child. I realize, Mooshi, you were likely talking about a broader application than just that. There are certain religions that go so completely against anything scientific that their followers believe it to be a sin to take their child to the doctor. There have been several child neglect/abuse cases in the courts pertaining to such incidents. Thankfully, there is still some semblance of separation between church and state that prohibits people from breaking child welfare laws in the name of their faith. Hopefully, that will never change.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2010, 01:59:16 pm »
Quote
Every adult I have ever known who was sent to catholic school no longer goes to church... they don't go to any kind of religious service.
Even if that's true, it could be for a number of reasons. Perhaps you don't keep company of catholic church goers so much, or maybe because those that disliked it are more likely to be vocal, or other possible factors.   Think about it: if everyone who attended catholic school completely stopped going to church as an adult, do you really think catholic schools would still exist? No, they'd drive themselves extinct.

Offline CiceroKit

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2010, 02:42:27 pm »
Vararam, I was simply relaying my experience. I happen to live in a predominantly Catholic part of the country, and I, myself, am Catholic. I didn't go to Catholic school, but those I knew who did, have turned away from religion. I am not trying to say that I know everyone who has ever went to Catholic school. That would be a foolish statement to make. The people I do know who did attend Catholic school, my father, my aunts and uncles on my father's side, and several of my coworkers, all fit my description. I know several people who were raised Catholic but never attended a Catholic school. Many of them are still regular church goers and remain devout Catholics. I went to church every week until about 6 years ago (I was age 28 when I stopped attending mass). I simply couldn't get past the overwhelming evidence that Church leaders had no intention of making right a grievous wrong with the sexual abuse cover-up. Honestly, to jump on me for relaying my personal experience is a bit silly, don't you think?
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Offline Yip

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2010, 03:49:14 pm »
Honestly, to jump on me for relaying my personal experience is a bit silly, don't you think?
First of all, get this idea that I was "jumping on you" out of your head. I wasn't. I was simply pointing out that anecdotal evidence doesn't stand up on it's own. The problem with personal experience is that it's personal: you can't expect other people to accept your personal experience as good enough evidence for them to accept your claim.

The idea that "the more parents push their kids into a religion, the more likely the kids are going to turn away from it in adulthood" isn't necessarily true. It is true in some cases, but it really depends on the kid and on what other experiences the kid has. For example, some kids are just naturally more likely to be rebellious while others are not, just as part of their core personality. Also, the more those beliefs match reality the less likely the kid will turn away from it in adulthood.  Point is, it's more complicated than you make it out.

I think what you are seeing has more to do with the fact that if someone has false beliefs that are never challenged, they are more likely to continue holding those beliefs. Someone that is strongly pushed into religion as a child is more likely to have a lot of core beliefs put in place that go completely unchallenged until adulthood. So what happens is they either continue to shield themselves form challenging those beliefs even into adulthood, or their beliefs unravel when they finally are challenged.

Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2010, 05:28:33 pm »
*Sends a couple of mini-pools for Vararam and CiceroKit* 8)
Here, this is from my behalf. Feel free to sit and chill with me  :D

Question: How many of you were raised in a religious family? Do you think it's something that had value for your life? :3
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Offline Avan

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2010, 05:56:53 pm »
Responding to serra's post; I was not, and I felt /not/ being raised in such an environment added a whole lot of value for me.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2010, 06:28:29 pm »
Question: How many of you were raised in a religious family? Do you think it's something that had value for your life? :3
I was. And honestly, the main "value" I got out of being raised in a religious family is that I can more easily see how the faith poison works, and how it can infect someone even if they are otherwise highly intelligent rational beings. It also means I have a lot better understanding of the Bible than I otherwise would. But the only reason that's really that big of a plus is 'cause of the influence the book has on so many people in this country. People who mostly haven't even really read the book they claim to adhere to.

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2010, 06:42:46 pm »
Responding to serra's post; I was not, and I felt /not/ being raised in such an environment added a whole lot of value for me.

Same here. I'm endlessly grateful to not have been raised with any religion. It encouraged me to figure out what I believed through independent thought, rather than discouraging the same.

Offline CiceroKit

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2010, 06:56:29 pm »
I was raised with a religious mother and religious grandparents. It instilled a sense of community in me. It helped shape much of my life's work, giving a voice to the voiceless as a reporter, and working for several charities.

As a side note, I wasn't using anecdotal evidence to try to say this is the way it is all the time. As I said, "I think," "personal experience," in regards to my opinions, not universal facts.

But since people seem to want me to leave out my own personal beliefs in a beliefs based debate, then I will resort to using a more hardline debate. Adults, who seldom understand what their religion actually touts, introduce their children to this. When the adult doesn't even understand religious principles, how can he or she expect his or her children to? Follow the link
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1745/religious-knowledge-in-america-survey-atheists-agnostics-score-highest Hence, the argument that it may be better to let a child decide for his or herself when he or she has reached an age where he or she understands the principles of a religion is actually more sound spiritually. It makes little sense to follow a religion that embodies things you do not even believe in. The study I pointed to shows that 45% of Catholics polled didn't even realize that one of the core beliefs of the Church is that the bread and wine really become the body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation). I have long thought this was likely the case, because when I would discuss this with fellow Catholics, that this is one thing that sets us apart from other Christian religions, they would doubt that this was the stance of the Church, they themselves believing in consubstantiation.

If I wanted to, I could take my own personal experience with people who have attended Catholic school and follow them throughout their life to see whether or not they continue to attend mass into adulthood, why they do or do not, take my findings, run an Alpha Nova, or even a Chi Square, to see if the findings were significant, come back and post my findings, and even if they were significant and the study was peer reviewed, someone could take issue with it because I would be applying empirical scientific research to a subject that is a soft science. I really have no desire to do all that for a silly debate forum, so I relayed my little anecdote to try to explain the basis of my opinion. Of course, some parents raise their kids in a religion and their kids grow up to raise their kids in that religion and everything is hunky dory. Some parents raise their kids in a religion that turns out to be a sex cult, and even some of those kids grow up to raise their own kids in that same sex cult, and everything is still hunky dory until someone alerts the feds, and then years later the victims of said sex cult give a teary eyed confessional on the public airwaves and the viewers shake their head in disgust.

Religion is neither always good or always bad. Some of the good things that have come out of religion include adoption services, healthcare and other services for the poor, schools, and counseling. Some bad things? How about war, slavery, sexual abuses, and incest? Yes, sometimes the dirty deeds are done for other reasons, just as sometimes some of the good deeds are too.

I guess that is all I really have to add. I don't mean to get my fur all ruffled or ruffle anyone else's. I just wanted to clarify a few points is all.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2010, 08:29:38 pm »
I guess that is all I really have to add. I don't mean to get my fur all ruffled or ruffle anyone else's. I just wanted to clarify a few points is all.
The only thing that "ruffled my fur" so to speak, was that you seemed to get all bent out of shape for me suggesting you might be wrong on that one point. Seriously, people are way too sensitive about that.

... Hence, the argument that it may be better to let a child decide for his or herself when he or she has reached an age where he or she understands the principles of a religion is actually more sound spiritually.
You kind of lost me with this sentence. When you said "more sound", were you talking about the argument or the religion? The structure of the sentence at first leads me to think you meant the argument is more sound, but then I don't see what 'spiritually' has to do with it.

Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2010, 08:47:02 pm »
Soooo the pool is not working, eh? >>; How about some icecream then?

Anyway, I see it seems general opinion is that religion isn't everyone's cup of tea. But hey, do you think maybe being exposed to religion's work made you gain new perspectives or critical thinking capabilities? :3 I mean, there's gotta be something good we can draw from experience.
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Offline CiceroKit

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2010, 11:03:17 pm »
I replied saying more sound spiritually, not referring to the argument being more sound, but to say that it would be more precisely a spiritual journey if the one making it was the one deciding which spiritual belief he or she wants to get behind.

Why I got upset was because I did not try to present my opinion, belief, thought as universal fact which it seemed to me you were reading that into it. I only wished to make myself clear in that point. Everyone makes some generalizations based on their own experiences. If we did not, we would go insane trying to describe the uniqueness of every bit of minutia in the universe.

Anyway, thank you Serra for the offer of the pool and ice cream. Too bad I am allergic to chlorine and lactose intolerant ;)
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Offline Yip

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2010, 11:36:11 pm »
I replied saying more sound spiritually, not referring to the argument being more sound, but to say that it would be more precisely a spiritual journey if the one making it was the one deciding which spiritual belief he or she wants to get behind.
ah ok.

Quote
Why I got upset was because I did not try to present my opinion, belief, thought as universal fact which it seemed to me you were reading that into it. I only wished to make myself clear in that point. Everyone makes some generalizations based on their own experiences. If we did not, we would go insane trying to describe the uniqueness of every bit of minutia in the universe.
It seemed to me like you making a claim "the more parent push there kids...", and then providing the bit about catholic schools as evidence of that.  Adding "I think" or that it's your opinion doesn't really change it much since you are still saying you take this to be true.  Anyways... enough of that.

Offline Itico

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2010, 12:37:15 am »
 I was raised in an on-again off-again religious household.  I was dragged to church, a place that I didn't want to be, listened to boring people telling me things that I already knew, like I should not steal, kill or want other people's wives and i certainly did not like being told that I was a sinner and that I was going to go to hell.  I was a young kid and I hadn't done anything bad up until that point.  that came along later.

Oh, I did learn some things, like they Bible story, but it did not teach me any critical thinking or any other type of thinking.  It was all, 'this is the way it is and that is how you should be.'  that's not teaching, that's brainwashing.

Needless to say, I ran away from it the first time i could.  To get back at all these 'teachings' I became a theif, I looked at porn and I started looking at all the married woman-kidding about that.

The one good thing I can say about having to go to church was that sometimes it was cooler in the church then it was at my home.

oh, well, i liked the group singing though, even if I did not care for what was being sung.

I knew several church goers who did not insist that their children go to church.  They said that they were welcome to, if they felt that would be good for them.  however, it was the child's choice.

I see religioun as a means of making people more socially acceptable in the society of that church, that is, it teaches rules and standards that the culture expects you to uphold.

Parents should be giving their children the best education they can and that includes in the options of faith.  If they are not doing that, then they should not have children.
"Amicus Plato, amicus Aristoteles, sed magis amica veritas." --Sir Isaac Newton

Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2010, 09:10:00 pm »
Anyway, thank you Serra for the offer of the pool and ice cream. Too bad I am allergic to chlorine and lactose intolerant ;)
Ok fine! Have a hug :3
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 08:53:00 pm by Serra Belvoule »
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Offline CiceroKit

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Re: Religion and Children
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2010, 08:28:33 am »
Awww... thanks for the hug   :)
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