Author Topic: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?  (Read 4235 times)

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Offline Mooshi

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Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« on: August 31, 2010, 04:03:48 am »
Lemme just point out that I hate all sides of the political spectrum when it becomes extremist, but I came across an interesting quote on the internet that seriously made me think. If you think about it, there is a bit of truth to it.  The first things you hear polititions do is critisize their opponents morals and core beliefs. But are the RIGHT, dare I say it, not really Christian in their core beliefs like many claim? They seem to love saying liberals are ruining the country and that socialism is not what this country was founded on...in the same breath that also loves mentioning Jesus and how this a 'Christian nation' ..I'll let you guys be the judge. (For the record I am an independant and not affiliated with a party. I would also like to say that if you're far left or right, please don't respond to this thread. This isn't about biased political views. It's for an honest mature discussion to talk about the quote and to give your own feedback.) Here it is:
Quote
turn the other cheek= war- hungry nation? if you have two cloaks, give to the man who has none=capitalism over socialism? republicans/right-wingers throw around "christian this" and "christian that", but the nation they want to build looks nothing like what jesus would have advocated.

Offline TashkentFox

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 04:27:48 am »
I'm right wing (some would no doubt call me a full-blown Fascist) and I don't like Christianity, I think it's a religion that has no place in influencing the politics of modern western society.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 04:30:00 am by TashkentFox »

Offline Mooshi

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 05:03:44 am »
I think the perspective is alittle more different on your end being British and all. No, that wasn't an insult. I meant that the US is basically a 2 party system when you get down to it while the UK has more options. The ones in the US really are God obsessed.

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 06:52:45 pm »
I'm not religious, but I'm more right wing/conservative than left wing/liberal. If I'm understanding that quote right, it sounds like it's oversimplifying things. I don't agree with everything the conservative right says, especially in some of the social aspects, but let me see if I can play a little devils advocate with that quote...

Quote
turn the other cheek= war- hungry nation?
Have we gone to war too much? Maybe, maybe not. But it's why we've gone to war. We're not just going in and taking over random countries and making them settlements. We always try to persue diplomatic resolutions first, and only invade to stop the harm from coming to us as a last resort. How many years and U.N. resolutions did we go through to try dealing with Sadam Hussein, including resolutions allowing the use of military power? Middle Easterners tend to only "respect" power, not diplomacy (Iran persuing nukes for a current example), so expect lots of military use with those countries. And we have a pretty good record of trying to rebuild said countries after the fact. Not in to mini-USA's, but by working with local cultures and customs.

Quote
if you have two cloaks, give to the man who has none=capitalism over socialism?
I'm guessing the auther is saying that the Christian's preach helping the fellow man but aren't doing so? If that's right, he/she is again missunderstanding how things work. There's a HUGE difference between willingly giving your extra cloak to someone in need and the government determining you have too many cloaks and demanding you turn it over to them at the point of their perverbial gun because they think they know better how it should be used. Even though I've never read the bible or went to church, I'd bet Jesus would want the former, not the latter. And I don't think any of us can really tell what he would want in this day and age. *Giggles* For all we know, he may fall in love with gaming systems and be plopped down on the couch telling God "Just a minute! Let me finish this level!"

If I'm wrong in what that quote was saying, my appologies. I've seen those kinds of arguments used before though trying to point out hypocrisy, and those people don't understand the other side or are purposely twisting their words to make a false chain of logic.
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Offline Avan

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2010, 10:41:10 am »
Political parties should let "social" (when it's really personal issues they are trying to cover) go to the wind & actually spend time /Running the government & (if & where necessary) maintaining the economy/

I mean, really now, they need to stop imposing their beliefs, ways & ideas on people's personal lives. This goes for both sides of the annoyingly linear political spectrum which is in all reality not 1 dimensional. Let people love who (or what) they want to love, so long as the ways in which they express it is not harming anyone unwillingly. And understand that love does not need to be sexual.
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Offline Foxxhoria

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 11:03:13 am »
I think what Mooshi's saying is that the Bible teaches altruism, yet these Christian Conservatives are all about preserving capitalism, which is kinda about selfishness and making money.
At least, that's how I'm seeing it from here (but I'm British so I don't really know much about your US politics :P).
Understanding leads to empathy,
Empathy leads to admiration,
Admiration leads to love

Optimism leads to disappointment,
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although, with optimism you are happy almost all the time,
and pessimism you are sad almost all the time.

Where's the line between being bored and generally too lazy to do anything? :p

Offline Avan

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 11:19:12 am »
I think what Mooshi's saying is that the Bible teaches altruism, yet these Christian Conservatives are all about preserving capitalism, which is kinda about selfishness and making money.
At least, that's how I'm seeing it from here (but I'm British so I don't really know much about your US politics :P).
Consider yourself very lucky.  :P
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Offline Alsek

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 06:47:09 pm »
the Bible teaches altruism


Don't confuse Israel with humanity as a whole.  Christians especially confuse the two... Israel had special rules set in place for them only.  They were supposed to become a nation of priests as God's chosen people.  As for other cultures and countries,  there is no defined system of government we (meaning Christians) are supposed to try to put into place.  Altruism is to be practiced on the level of the church,  and individuals...  It's also by free will,  not by force.  It wouldn't really be altruism if you were being forced to do it,  not would it?    (:

But, in other words,   Though the Bible does define laws for a system of government, when the Bible says,  "Israel,   do this,"  It means specificity,   "Israel,  do this."




As a Christian,  my perspective is that the more loose the governing laws are in this country,  the more free i am to follow my Faith/Religion.  I don't have to fear that ever changing. (a lot of people make fun of Christians for acting paranoid about it,  but look global history,   and even a whole lot of countries today.  It's a legitimate fear.)

I don't want the government involved in any of it,  in any way.  No rules or regulations for religion,  including what we can believe,   think,  or say...  We also already have the right to gather peacefully.   Those are basically covered by the first amendment anyways.


So,  an officially Christian nation?   No.  We may have been at one time,  but I don't believe that we could call ourselves that any more.  However, a nation that has a loose enough framework for us to follow what we believe without fear?   Absolutely.  And this country really does have that above a lot of others.


Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 07:56:48 pm »
The part where you mix religion and politics, I will focus on that a bit:
Yes, people have used beliefs to shield their politics, and most of the time it's to advocate some wrongdoing. "God tells me to go main these people" is hardly a good excuse for anything.
Double standards exist for anyone. We just get to see them more often on such big scale issues because they affect us more or less directly and, well, like it or not it's always easy to blame the people in charge.
I wonder how many could be in charge without resorting to NONE of the things we blame politicians for.
It's a complex world with a bent structure as it is, so it'd be hardly the case for someone who "always does right" (Don't think such an individual exist but hypothetically speaking...) to fit on the political or even cultural model we have built as a society.
It's sad, isn't it?
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Offline Yip

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 10:41:29 pm »
So,  an officially Christian nation?   No.  We may have been at one time,  but I don't believe that we could call ourselves that any more.
The only way the U.S. has ever been a Christian Nation is that the majority of people here are Christian. But in that case we are also a white nation, and there aren't too many that'd go around boasting that. ;)  The US was founded as a secular government, and therefore is not, and never has been, a Christian Nation.  I know of only two places in the constitution where it refers to religion. One is where it's saying there shall be no religious test for office, and the other is the first amendment which prohibits the government from promoting or prohibiting any religion. In other words, in both places its to keep them separate.

The thing I don't understand is how so many Christians can't seem to see that keeping government and religion separate is good for everybody including them.

Offline Avan

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 10:45:11 pm »
@Serra

I was all like, "Yeah, there could be!", (referring to what I am trying to become, for the AZAR), and then I read "to fit on the political or even cultural model we have built as a society." And then I was like, oh, yeah. No way that's happening for humanity. :P
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Offline Alsek

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 11:13:17 pm »
The only way the U.S. has ever been a Christian Nation is that the majority of people here are Christian. But in that case we are also a white nation, and there aren't too many that'd go around boasting that. ;)  The US was founded as a secular government, and therefore is not, and never has been, a Christian Nation.  I know of only two places in the constitution where it refers to religion. One is where it's saying there shall be no religious test for office, and the other is the first amendment which prohibits the government from promoting or prohibiting any religion. In other words, in both places its to keep them separate.

The thing I don't understand is how so many Christians can't seem to see that keeping government and religion separate is good for everybody including them.

Indeed,  but it does require a minimalistic government.  If religion is permitted but praying is banned and preachers aren't able to go up on a pulpit on private property and teach the religion without fear of being arrested for hate crimes (banning thoughts and speech is kind of an interesting development,  isn't it?),  then it doesn't really help anything.

If you allow religion but ban everything most common religions practice,  then you've still banned and regulated religion.

Personal opinions of myself (and hopefully others) on it aside, the fact is,  that is where the fear lies for a lot of folks.  Not that,  one day a law will be made banning religion,  but that it will slowly happen anyways.  For people with this fear,  an attempt to gain some level of control and have religion still noticed somewhere by our government may look like a shiny way of knowing we're not going there yet.

@Vararam:  By, "we may have been at one time,"  I just meant Christian nation,  not officially.  Sorry for the poor choice of wording there.     (:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 11:15:47 pm by Alsek »

Offline Yip

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 12:46:12 am »
If religion is permitted but praying is banned and preachers aren't able to go up on a pulpit on private property and teach the religion without fear of being arrested for hate crimes (banning thoughts and speech is kind of an interesting development,  isn't it?),  then it doesn't really help anything.
That's why it's important that we have laws protecting things such as the rights of citizens to have free speech. Even if someone is spouting the most vile and hateful things you can think of, that in itself is still not specifically a "hate crime". It's the reason why some extreme fundamentalist group can get away with things like protesting funerals. As much as we might like to shut people like that up, we have to accept their right to say such things since the laws must exist specifically to allow people to say things that are not popular.

The rights of each individual should only be limited by the rights of others.  Anyways... I'm probably straying from the topic.

Offline Alsek

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 12:52:59 am »
That's why it's important that we have laws protecting things such as the rights of citizens to have free speech. Even if someone is spouting the most vile and hateful things you can think of, that in itself is still not specifically a "hate crime". It's the reason why some extreme fundamentalist group can get away with things like protesting funerals. As much as we might like to shut people like that up, we have to accept their right to say such things since the laws must exist specifically to allow people to say things that are not popular.

The rights of each individual should only be limited by the rights of others.  Anyways... I'm probably straying from the topic.

Yea!  someone who gets it!  You sir have made my...  Hour.  Past few hours maybe.

We probably would've strayed off topic eventualy but with the context i don't think a line was crossed.  ^.~
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 12:54:53 am by Alsek »

Offline Acton

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 03:42:26 am »
First of all I be careful about poisoning the well. You cannot  set terms  for debate by exclude or attacking  anybody you have a disagreement .

No let get to the point of the matter you alluded to right wing as hypocrites but give no objective proof. To be a hypocrite is to know the truth abut to practice the opposite.  If any thing the religious  Conservative would say the the nation was founded Judeo–Christian principals principals of God not man as the source of our rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness and the Protestant  work ethic of reward for one own hard work.

Offline Mooshi

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2010, 11:02:20 pm »
Hmmm..lemme try to sum this up so it is easy to understand what I meant. You don't have to be Christian or even religious to know that the teachings of Jesus was to be nice to your fellow man. To help them out when they have nothing and you have more than you need. Kindness and compassion is what he was about. Sad how people let politics twist that. In the USA, the right tends to be prodominatly Christian and yet seem to be the ones who favour capitalism. A system that is greed at its heart. The exact opposite of what Jesus preached.

Offline Alsek

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 12:33:30 am »
Christian is not synonymous with, "right wing."  I know a lot of, "left wing," Christians as well.   I also know people who hate Christianity and are republicans.  Don't mix the two as being a single group.

But as far as that specific group you're talking about goes:

     As soon as you make giving to the less fortunate a law as opposed to something you do of your own free will,  people abuse it,  and become lazy.  People get greedy,  making laws that assume they aren't is ASKING for abuse of the system.  I personally know several people doing it today.

I would asume that you agree that our capitalistic society is better than the socialistic and communistic ones around the globe seeing as how you choose to live here...  We are pretty well off,  and even the poorest people in America are still far better off than the poor in most of the 194 other countries.  Don't attribute these facts to pure coincidence.  We're not,  "lucky."  We built a good country.

That's what always confused me about the Europeans I've met who immigrated to the states...  Almost all of them that I have met have said things to me like,  “I love the country,  I moved here because there were jobs available and the pay was good.  The gas is cheap...  I just wish the country was more like <insert home country> where we had free healthcare and guns were banned.”  Why do people think things are the way they are here?  Fate?

Competition in any field (including medicine, education,  and housing) means constant progression in technology as well as competitive pricing.  As a result,  we get the best technology for the cheapest price.  Our quality of life increases from the top down. By getting the government involved whose budget is exponentially larger,   you kill off competition by creating a monopoly,  and you kill off growth and competitive pricing.  Costs of the invaluable things the government is trying to make sure people have can go UP.

For those truly in need (And i don't believe that every middle class American household falls under that category) there are government programs and places for them to go in order to get food,  shelter,  and back on their feet.


Very few wake up in the morning wondering how to steal from the poor,  kill off all the elderly and underprivileged through expensive healthcare,  or how to ruin education for all the children.
  Most folks,  republican, democrat or otherwise want to see people live full lives,  be in good health,  have homes,  and have good education.  It's just a matter of how they believe it is best done.


As for the Church (as this is a part of the topic):

The first focus of a properly functioning Christian church is it's own members.  A blind widow in the church who can't pay for groceries is going to take priority.  Christians are supposed to, not only to pray for people,  but to be the answer to prayer when available.  But when there is extra money,  yeah,  it should go to help the people in the community (and not to be wasted on professional stage lights... [I've seen it...])


I guess that sums up my general opinion on capitalism and it's relation to my beleifs as a Christian.  I am not a republican,  i am closer to being a libertarian.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 12:39:24 am by Alsek »

Offline CiceroKit

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2010, 01:47:39 pm »
Pandering to people based on religion is just a dirty way of getting votes. Period. I won't go into separation of church and state, but what I will say is this:

The Republicans will happily take campaign contributions and other forms of assistance from religious organizations, all while promising to make abortion illegal. When George W. Bush was in office, the Republicans had the majority in the House and Senate. Bush appointed conservatives to replace more liberal or moderate supreme court justices. The supreme court still carries a conservative majority. If Roe v. Wade was ever going to be overturned, it would have happened already. The Republicans have no interest in overturning it. They know that the majority of Americans are content with the law of the land on this issue. However, that doesn't stop them from stumping on that issue to convince people who might not otherwise vote to vote.

Basically, people vote with their pocket book. That is the logical way to vote. People may cite religious reasons, but when it comes down to it, people will vote for what they deem is their own personal best interest.

I am unusual, because I can honestly say that the way I vote is not always in my best interest. I think about what is best for the most people. If I voted in my best interest, I would be voting for a third party candidate every time, but until there is instant runoff voting, I refuse to do so. It would essentially mean that I would be throwing my vote away.

I understand the basis of this thread. Officials in the Catholic Church have stated that Capitalism is immoral. However, they still donate big bucks to Republicans. Why? Don't let the abortion issue fool you... all the Christian Churches in the U.S. are voting with their pocket books too... school choice vouchers. Despite all these people in the media poo-pooing the public schools, a lot of people don't want to send their kids to a private, religious schools. Money is a factor. People don't want to pay for something that they feel should be free. But supply a free ride to private schools, and it will boost enrollment.

For me, I vote Democrat most of the time. In my lifetime, the economy has been better under the leadership of Democrats. The Clinton years are evidence of that. We are in hard economic times now, but it was Bush who enacted TARP and his deregulating buddies who got us into this mess. I essentially believe that when you let the markets decide, the people lose. Big corporations generally do not care about their employees or the consumers of their product. The best corporations at least care about their share holders, but over the past decade, that line of thinking became passe. I look at Enron and how only a few, a crooked accounting agency and the chief executives, came out ahead. I look at HP under the leadership of Carly Fiorina and how she ran the company into the ground, laying off 33,000 workers and having stock prices plummet under her leadership, all the while as she received a $45 million golden parachute to quietly go away. In the past, it may have made sense for people to vote Republican for their economic interests, believing that it was better to let the markets decide. Sadly, the Democrats are not much different on this. They are essentially Republican light.

I suppose some may consider me an extremist because I want there to be a lot more regulation. I don't see a thing wrong with socialism. On the political spectrum, socialism is not an extreme, but too many present a logical fallacy that mistakes it for Communism. It is essentially the opposite of libertarianism, which most do not see as an extreme.

Coming to terms with the belief that a socialist light government (such as what is seen throughout much of Europe) would be the best for this country has been a political journey. When I first reached voting age, I was a registered libertarian. I really believed in the "let the markets decide," minimal government approach. However, throughout the last 18 years of my life, I have seen where that doesn't work for the majority of the people living in these United States. Our markets are clusterf*cked!

There are numerous things wrong with our economic system that go beyond politics. This is why we have a diminishing middle class. We have a lot of working poor, and we have a small amount of wealthy individuals who continue to get wealthier, but the middle is where most would like to be and cannot. Many people cannot see how they will ever be able to live the simple American dream, which is more about having a home, a steady job and a decent means than amassing more money than they know what to do with. Having more people who can afford to live a sustainable existence, as in making enough money to afford the basics without accruing debt, would seem to be the moral position. That is going to require huge institutional changes beyond pointing out the hypocrisy of the political right. We essentially need to get rid of the wage an hour system that promotes inefficiency and economic stagnation. Perhaps, if employers were to adopt a model more like France's industries have, we would have a more efficient workforce, better returns, and less outsourcing of jobs. People should get paid for work done, not hours put in, and work should carry more reward than investment.

As of the beginning of October, I will be working three jobs and making less money than I was at the one job I was laid off from. It is a situation that former President George W. Bush called "uniquely American." I think I would rather be more like the rest of the developed world than "uniquely American," if it means that I fall behind despite working my arse off. I think most would agree, but have bought into the rhetoric that so flatters them all while making it seem morally okay to keep them oppressed.

That is my two cents. Although we are in a recession, so it is now only worth .00001 cent.
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Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2010, 02:53:36 am »
Cicero, there's a lot I could say about your post, but to try keeping to the topic of this thread, I just want to touch on one of the things you said:

Quote
The Republicans will happily take campaign contributions and other forms of assistance from religious organizations, all while promising to make abortion illegal. When George W. Bush was in office, the Republicans had the majority in the House and Senate. Bush appointed conservatives to replace more liberal or moderate supreme court justices. The supreme court still carries a conservative majority. If Roe v. Wade was ever going to be overturned, it would have happened already.

This kinda thing isn't just a right wing hypocrisy. All sides do stuff like this. Roe v Wade is one of many issues that are always asked of candidates to get an idea of their beliefs and such. Even if a polititian were to campaign on changing an old law, it's very unlikely they will go through with it. Why? I can't say exactly, but could be a number of reasons. Maybe they see more glory in passing "new and original" legislation instead of digging up old issues. Maybe it's just too hard to get the others to go along with trying to make the change. Maybe just too busy with current affairs. Or they may just be too lazy. I suspect it's a combination of those plus other reasons. Especially if it's someone new running for office. Take the war on terror. You had all the democrats crying to have us pull out of the Mid-East immediately, but when they got one in office, they realized it wasn't so easy and had to give in on their wishes.
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2010, 03:48:53 am »
Quote
By getting the government
involved whose budget is exponentially larger,   you kill off
competition by creating a monopoly,  and you kill off growth
and competitive pricing.


Not entirely true. The same can be said with big business. Especially the communication field where things like your ISP is almost monopolyized. We don't have too many choices within the same area throughout the entire country. Same for stores. (Walmart ring a bell?)

Don't wanna get too caught up in a healthcare debate, but if we can afford (not really as horrid presidents past of both parties made this a debtor nation) to spend billions daily to kill people and drop care packages after, surely we can make it so that someone who needs even the tiniest surgery will be able to get it instead of be sickly for long periods of time, even years, because they "aren't covered". In otherwords, I don't buy into the bullcrap politics these puppets in Washington are spewing out as excuses.

Back on topic: I'm not saying the left doesn't have Christians or that everyone on the right is a del facto Christian. What I am saying is the a good majority of the right likes to think of themself as a moral party. There are huge amounts of religious babbling mixed in with politics that have no business being there. When I think of the right in the US Republican base, I think of people like Sarah Palin. Nuff said. :P

On another non related side note, anti gun is a really stupid stance to have. People will always find channels through the black market. The smarter stance is to have it mandatory everyone is trained how to use one. The safest country on earth has such a stance. They have a low crime rate with firearms because everyone knows how to use one. Be foolish to pull a gun on someone where just about everyone is trained and armed. Haha

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2010, 09:14:52 am »
All sides do stuff like this.


I agree. However, when it comes to traditional "moral" issues, the Republicans seem to do it more. Most Dems won't even touch an issue such as poverty when they are out stumping, and that would be a good moral issue to campaign on.

I sometimes get the feeling that Democrats use the environment in such a way though. I know people who vote simply based on that issue, and it is a moral issue of sorts. I mean, people want their children to grow up with clean air and clean water. I, myself, am an environmentalist, but I can't say that I vote one way or another based on that issue because both Democrats and Republicans fail on this issue. Neither are willing to scrap the campaign contributions from big coal and big oil to do something that would be in the best interest of the people. I am not talking cap and trade, but rather tougher regulations and less subsidies for nonrenewable energy. Sure, the government can set aside grant dollars for green jobs, but that doesn't do anything about big polluters. The congress had the opportunity to pass a climate change bill this last session, but decided not to. After the election, if the issue comes up at all, any bill proposed will get killed. As much as I would like for someone in office to do something on this issue, which I honestly see as the biggest issue that will effect everyone, it is not an issue to vote on because our politicians don't take it seriously.

I know that sounds cynical, but that is why I say that pandering to people based on religious or moral issues is dirty. It is just a way to get people to vote who might not otherwise vote. All the promises based on morality ring hollow.
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Offline Avan

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2010, 03:10:04 pm »
Yeah, it's not so much that one side is doing it, but that one side is simply doing it more often than other sides. :P

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Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2010, 11:07:35 pm »
@Serra

I was all like, "Yeah, there could be!", (referring to what I am trying to become, for the AZAR), and then I read "to fit on the political or even cultural model we have built as a society." And then I was like, oh, yeah. No way that's happening for humanity. :P

Hehe yeah. Utopia is a nice dream but a dream nonetheless.
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