Author Topic: Ronald Reagan  (Read 3751 times)

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Offline Mooshi

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Ronald Reagan
« on: November 19, 2010, 09:54:08 am »
Best president ever or the worst?

Years after his death, the GOP is still obsessed. So, what makes the 40th president so special? Please don't mention the Cold War. That was already winding down since they didn't have the means to keep up. Reagan had little to do with the overall picture. To me, Reagan is what Obama is today. A brand.

What do I mean? I mean the same way people act towards expensive brands. You get alot more positive feedback when you mention a $250,000+ super car over a Honda Civic. Super cars might be awesome on paper, but in the real world, they don't work very well for day to day use. They are there to look pretty and run well on a track for people to Ooh and Ahh as they watch. Same as Reagan and Obama. Nice to look at, but when you dig deeper into their policies....

It's easy to let a scandal influence you. Former president Richard Nixon is always villanized and people can never let Watergate go. But did you know he also created the EPA? Former President Clinton will always be remembered for his sexual scandal and not his surplus when he left office. These former presidents are not perfect by any means, but unlike them, Reagan constantly gets toted as a god among men by some circles, a super hero. Does he really deserve it? I think not. This man is partly responsible for where we are today. The richer get richer and the poorer get poorer. The whole "trickle down" economics doesn't work. If I were a CEO and I had more cash flow at hand, I'm not thinking "Oh golly gee whiz! I have so much extra money, it sure will be swell to make my employees feel special by giving them all big bonuses!" - I'm thinking "More money in my pocket, heh heh." That is what really happens in the real world.

What are your thoughts? As a human being, Reagan was a decent guy. As president and the light the GOP shone on him...not so much.

Offline KitsuNinja

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2010, 12:58:55 pm »
...You do realize most people here weren't alive during his presidency?

Kinda hard to comment on someone when we weren't around.  >:(
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Offline Avan

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2010, 02:15:46 pm »
...You do realize most people here weren't alive during his presidency?

Kinda hard to comment on someone when we weren't around.  >:(
Or were very, very young.

But I think that Mooshi is looking at reputations.
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Offline Drake Blackpaw

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2010, 03:55:22 pm »
Having lived through Reagan's presidency as a teenager, I can say that his presidency was a mixed bag, but more good than bad.  The biggest plus of his presidency was that he was an inspirational leader (that's different than good) when America was feeling down.  In essence, he helped America feel good about itself.

His economic policies spurred growth in the short term, but grew the deficit in the long term.

Oh, and while he was conservative, he wasn't as conservative as the current Republican party base is.

Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2010, 04:53:33 pm »
Ugh, I had to deal with Reaganomics half a semester during highschool. If this topic had a face, I would punch it. In the face.

In a less sarcastic note, I concur on the fact that a lot of furtopians didn't have direct touch with his "reign". Are you talking on the effects? On a breakdown of his influence? On what history recorded? Personal opinion?
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2010, 06:09:51 pm »
Reagan is dead. Why worry about him now?  :P

Offline Mooshi

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2010, 06:42:43 pm »
I like Drake's response most. 8)

I know not all of us were alive then. Geeze,  I think Bush Sr was president when I was born and I remember Clinton being president. However, just cause you weren't around during Reagan's years, doesn't mean you didn't study up on him.

Kobuk, if the GOP in the news would stop saying 'Reagan" every other sentence, he would truly be "dead". That'd be like hearing the Dems mentioning JFK every opportunity they can get. In a way, it's very annoying. x_x It sorta is relevant since "Reaganomics" is alive today within these "too big too fail" entities. If I remember, the bailout and many people being laid off while CEO's got fat bonuses wasn't all too long ago.

Making America feel nice and safe was a good gesture..but the enonomy..geeze. Our nation will never get out of debt.

Offline Avan

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2010, 10:01:38 pm »
Study him?
Not in any depth.
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Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 12:44:00 am »
Never really studied him and was still just a toddler when he was in office, so I don't really have much opion on him over all either. But one thing Mooshi said caught my eye.

Quote
The whole "trickle down" economics doesn't work. If I were a CEO and I had more cash flow at hand, I'm not thinking "Oh golly gee whiz! I have so much extra money, it sure will be swell to make my employees feel special by giving them all big bonuses!" - I'm thinking "More money in my pocket, heh heh." That is what really happens in the real world.

The point of business is to make money, not to make things all hearts and roses for your employees, but there is a balancing act where having a good work environment promotes workers to do good. So on one hand, if you as a CEO hoard all the money, a competitor may come in and under cut you and take your customers at a cheaper price, take your workers with a better work enviroment, or nothing happens and you buy lots of toys for you. But even then, you're still helping a trickle down idea in the sense that all those new expensive toys and houses and such you buy is still helping other business because they now have to hire more workers to meet a greater demand. If you are a smart CEO (as well you should be), you'd re-invest the money into your business either by expanding to meet a need, upgrading for better efficiency that can lead to better work enviroment, or just paying out more bonuses. Regardless of how you handle the money, it is more than likely going to help the economy in some way.

My point being that while trickle down may not be the end all, be all to economic theories, it does work IMHO and I do think Reagan should be given more credit than he has been for the idea.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 12:53:29 am by Narei Mooncatt »
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 01:36:41 am »
I'm not entirely sure on that. Also wouldn't say he is underrated, if anything it's the other way around. In theory it works, but I fail to see it working successfully in my adult years. The problem is these CEOs are not the smart kind that re-invest into their business, they take government tax breaks and live it up all while stepping on those beneath them. Their business tanks, but we have the government backing them up as the "little guy" gets screwed in the process. That is what his brand of economics looks like in my perspective. I'm not saying give all your profits away, but geeze...running your companies into the ground, causing thousands of people to lose their source of income to become homeless and as they suffer, party it up with the other wastes of oxygen who got their golden parachutes. If you run a business and it tanks THAT bad, you DO NOT deserve pats on the back by the government- more money tossed your way to make it "trickle down". You deserve to have your rear-end tossed in the streets like the gutter rat you are for causing so much damage to many people. To be blunt. If your company fails, it fails. People might still be out of a job, but at least they can rest alittle easier knowing their ex employer isn't partying with all the spare cash via tax breaks and deregulation he/she pocketed. -_-

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 01:43:05 am »
I agree, I'm against bail outs too, but that wasn't Regan's idea that I know of. Let's not blame actions of government since him on his policies when they aren't directly related. Would Regan have bailed out companies too? I dunno, but I wouldn't support it either way. It's issues like that, though, that prevent the market from working like it should which helps prevent companies from being too greedy. You need consiquences.
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Offline Drake Blackpaw

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 09:43:40 am »
Trickle down economics makes two assumptions that are basically wrong.  1st is that if the rich have more money they will spend it.  The rich save the majority of their money and extra money that comes in usually goes to savings, not increased spending.  In this regard, increasing money to poor and middle class people work better because they spend almost all the money they receive and increases in money usually go to increased spending.  2nd is that corporations will use extra money to invest wisely in their business, which will in turn, benefit the workers in the business and their wages will rise as a result.  The second may have been true in the early 80's, but it is not true today, at least not true today for many large, publicly traded corporations.  And no, bailouts are not the reason it isn't true today.

Our current financial system is rigged to favor short term gain over long term gain, and this plays out the most with publicly trade companies on the stock market.   CEOs are rewarded for making decisions that drive up share prices in the short term over decisions that would help their country grow in the long term.  CEOs that don't make these decisions get voted out by the shareholders or their companies get sued for not doing what is in the best interest of the shareholders.   When a CEO may only be at a company for 5 years, and they will get rewarded for making decisions that will help their company's share price for several years, but will hurt their company 5 years down the road, guess what decisions they are going to make. 

How do you fix this?  Good question, and I'm not sure anyone has a good answer yet. 

Offline Acton

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 02:47:21 pm »
I lived my teen-age years through the Ford and Carter administrations. Carter was the last democrat I voted for.  We had high unemployment, 12% interest rates, and we were in recession. There was this thing called the Misery index, which added unemployment rate to the Inflation rate. Carter’s policies took it from 12.72 to 19.72. We had a top marginal tax rate was 70%. The Soviet Union existed with no end in sight and expanded to Afghanistan, Africa, and Central America. Welfare system was out of control, my relatives, in the projects, knew how they can get more welfare dollars by gaming the system and dropping more kids. I joined the Navy in 1980. We had not shaken the stigma of the Vietnam era. I made less as a lower enlisted than when I washed dishes at a job after school. We had no support it was not common to cannibalize ships and planes to get another working. Our equipment was 1950-60 technology.

This was the world I lived in; most of you were not even a hot night of passion by your parents. I seen the changes Reagan did with my own eyes starting with given us military a much need raise bringing pay to and above the minim wage. He gave us to support to defend your rights when you were not even born or were real baby furs ;). Reagan realized the way to grow the economy was let all keep more of their money. In the eighties tax receipts went up because instead of sheltering their money the rich invested in which created capital for small and large business to start and grow. Yes, the rich got richer so did the poor to where congress simply raised the level what it meant to be poor. More people moved up into the middle class. I dare say we would not have the PC.  Revolution as intense if income (I e future capital) was taxed at 70%.
Final he was not satisfied with the status qua of the Cold War and the Soviet Union. He wanted to win the Cold War.  In the end, his program free millions form Soviet dominance, Poland, East Germany, Latvia, Estonia, and other countries. For me Ragan bought back pride to be an American and to be a service member. I want form hiding it in 1980; back the  service persons were still Vietnam era druggies, crazed baby killers and losers to 1985 I was thank by random persons for my service.

Ragan changed the world you all now living in before many of you were born; I am glad I was there and part of it.

Now with that I agree to a point, I am frustrated with the GOP living in Regan’s past. It is because even the conservative movement forgot to take what Reagan did and build on it. Instead, conservatives and the GOP abandoned Reagan’s principals and leavening the GOP and conservatism to live in the past.

Offline Mooshi

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Re: Ronald Reagan
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 10:19:11 pm »
Interesting perspectives. ;) Obviously I wasn't around during his era as I was a 90's kid. But it is hard to ignore the GOP constantly going on about the man. In a way it's like the Chuck Norris jokes. After awhile, hearing the jokes over and over go from being funny to aggrivating. Also agree that Carter was a horrible president. :P Still, the whole adding to the national debt, not pushing Detroit to make more fuel efficient cars and deregulation were horrible policies that continue to haunt us today.

To get semi off-topic for a second, I think the only way our current president has any chance of going down in the record books with something above "Horribly inexperienced, young, adding more to the national debt than any president before him" is to get these wars under control. With Reagan's faults, he still is in high opinion in some circles. Even if it was W's fault we're at war in the  first place - the world has its eyes on Obama to fix it. I mean we killed way more than they killed on our soil back on 9/11 a long time ago. Now it's not even justified and is only adding more debt to the future generations. Cold War was scare tactics, current war is scare tactics mixed in with ideals and ideals can not be fought. These wars can not be "won".