Author Topic: Return of the Werewolf  (Read 13389 times)

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Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2010, 09:01:15 pm »
Yay...

Do you realize that by me calling out the wolf, I've given opportunity for the warlock and wolf to get in contact?

This might be true if you (Vararm) were the Seer, but this *would* be true if you (Vararam) were the Warlock.  In the former case, you (Vararam) would be the Seer and I would be the Werewolf, and the Warlock would PM me (as only the Seer, the Warlock, and a gutsy Werewolf would claim to be a Seer).  However, I know this isn't the case, as I am not a Werewolf.  The Seer knows this, too.

I refrain from explaining the latter case; I do not wish to give the real Werewolf any ideas.

Seer, I offer you the option of revealing yourself and putting in the final nail on this Warlock's coffin.  You know I'm innocent, and revealing yourself would collaborate my side of the argument.  If you do so, the Werewolf will almost certainly kill you this night, and you will not have a vision.  (*Scrimno, I'd like a verification of the previous statement for clarity purposes.*)  If you *don't* do so, and somebody other than the Werewolf or Warlock gets lynched...

Like the tales of the village of Lobos (the last game), if the wolf and his helper can work together and both live past the first day, then the village is lost.

...then the villagers lose.  Both Vararam and myself know how to force a win from this scenario; it wouldn't matter which of us was on the dark side.

Plus, even if I weren't the seer and was just making a wild accusation like the wolf-yoshi claims, there is still a chance I'd have picked the wolf at random.  Therefore, "just to be safe", Red Yoshi should be your target. Unless you are the warlock.

I suspect that you (Vararam) chose me over the other four townspeople for this reason.  I believe you suspected that I'd know how to react to this accusation, and wouldn't falter where somebody else might have.  Even if this was not the case for any townsperson, the cost-benefit ratio is still greatly in your favor.

Be glad this isn't the case.  I'd be pretty agitated at you for putting the two of us at the highest level of susceptibility for lynching.
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Offline Kaloth

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2010, 09:07:25 pm »
Here is the way I see it:

There are a few possibilities that could be going on here.
1) Var is the seer, and RY is the werewolf. If this is true I would think that either Cimarron is the warlock, or just a villager. However if this is the case, we can end the game right now by lynching Redyoshi.
2.) Var is lying and he is the warlock. This would leave Redyoshi as the seer, as I don't think Var would be careless enough to put himself at such a risk as this without at least showing the werewolf who is the seer. Unfortunately this gives us no clue who the actual werewolf is, and makes us no closer to the end of the game.
3.) Var is lying and is just a villager hoping to make the werewolf contact him in order to lead him into a trap. This also gives us no clue who the werewolf is, and makes us distrust the person who might have a connection to it.
4.) Var is the werewolf. Honestly I just can't see this as the case, unless Var is using triple reverse psychology.

To be perfectly frank I think that we should just deal with RY in case Var is telling the truth. If it continues after, then we can decide what to do with Var. (This is of course barring further evidence)

Offline Cimarron

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2010, 09:16:38 pm »
I know for a fact Var is not the seer.
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Offline Kaloth

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2010, 09:17:29 pm »
I know for a fact Var is not the seer.

How exactly is that? Are you saying that you are the seer? Because as of now, only 4 people could know that for certain. These are Var himself, and the werewolf who wouldn't expose him, RedYoshi, though he wouldn't really know just HIGHLY likely, and the seer.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 09:19:25 pm by Kaloth »

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2010, 09:18:39 pm »
How else would I know? I am the seer.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 09:21:47 pm by Cimarron »
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Offline Kaloth

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2010, 09:31:21 pm »
So now we have two claiming to be a seer, and one accused werewolf. Honestly this still leaves my option number 1 available. Which quite frankly is even more disturbing because that means that both the warlock and werewolf are working together. This is BAD as RY has said a few times already if they both live they can force a win.

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2010, 09:39:51 pm »
Me... a warlock? Ive never heard of such a crazy thought.  Just because you're on the hot seat you just wanna get people to macaroniously believe that Im a warlock? Well, Im just a common villager... Im just tryen to lynch this warewolf before word gets out and our property values drop.  Your squirmen' in the hot seat my friend... squirmen'!
I wasn't saying you were. I have no reason to suspect you of being the warlock. I was merely stating that the warlock (whoever that is) wouldn't find the idea of lynching RedYoshi "just to be safe" a good idea. In fact, quite the opposite.

Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2010, 09:50:23 pm »
Here is the way I see it:

There are a few possibilities that could be going on here.
1) Var is the seer, and RY is the werewolf. If this is true I would think that either Cimarron is the warlock, or just a villager. However if this is the case, we can end the game right now by lynching Redyoshi.
2.) Var is lying and he is the warlock. This would leave Redyoshi as the seer, as I don't think Var would be careless enough to put himself at such a risk as this without at least showing the werewolf who is the seer. Unfortunately this gives us no clue who the actual werewolf is, and makes us no closer to the end of the game.
3.) Var is lying and is just a villager hoping to make the werewolf contact him in order to lead him into a trap. This also gives us no clue who the werewolf is, and makes us distrust the person who might have a connection to it.
4.) Var is the werewolf. Honestly I just can't see this as the case, unless Var is using triple reverse psychology.

To be perfectly frank I think that we should just deal with RY in case Var is telling the truth. If it continues after, then we can decide what to do with Var. (This is of course barring further evidence)

I'd like to amend your case 2.

If Vararam is the Warlock, and if I was *not* the Seer, then I would only be backed up if the real Seer revealed himself.  Either the real Seer would reveal himself to say that Vararam is not the Seer and thus get Vararam lynched as a Warlock, I would die as the suspected Werewolf, or Vararam would die as the suspected Warlock without the Seer revealing himself.

No case is disadvantageous to the real Werewolf, the Werewolves only lose if Vararam happened to choose the real Werewolf and everybody else believed him, and the third case is the only other one without great benefit to the Werewolf side.  There is more for the Werewolf side to gain than there is for the Werewolf side to lose.  In other words, if Vararam is the Warlock, he doesn't necessarily need to find a Seer to accuse somebody.
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Offline Kaloth

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2010, 09:52:22 pm »

No case is disadvantageous to the real Werewolf, the Werewolves only lose if Vararam happened to choose the real Werewolf and everybody else believed him, and the third case is the only other one without great benefit to the Werewolf side.  There is more for the Werewolf side to gain than there is for the Werewolf side to lose.  In other words, if Vararam is the Warlock, he doesn't necessarily need to find a Seer to accuse somebody.

Case one is pretty disadvantageous for the werewolf. It assumes YOU are the werewolf, and have been called out.

Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2010, 09:53:53 pm »

No case is disadvantageous to the real Werewolf, the Werewolves only lose if Vararam happened to choose the real Werewolf and everybody else believed him, and the third case is the only other one without great benefit to the Werewolf side.  There is more for the Werewolf side to gain than there is for the Werewolf side to lose.  In other words, if Vararam is the Warlock, he doesn't necessarily need to find a Seer to accuse somebody.

Case one is pretty disadvantageous for the werewolf. It assumes YOU are the werewolf, and have been called out.

By "case", I meant the subcases of my amendment to your case 2.  Sorry if that was not clear.
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Offline Scrimno

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2010, 11:14:48 pm »
Seer, I offer you the option of revealing yourself and putting in the final nail on this Warlock's coffin.  You know I'm innocent, and revealing yourself would collaborate my side of the argument.  If you do so, the Werewolf will almost certainly kill you this night, and you will not have a vision.  (*Scrimno, I'd like a verification of the previous statement for clarity purposes.*)  If you *don't* do so, and somebody other than the Werewolf or Warlock gets lynched...

A dead Seer can't very well tell people what they "see" now can they?
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Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2010, 11:21:35 pm »
A dead Seer can't very well tell people what they "see" now can they?

(*Well, they could if the dead are allowed to talk (which, if I recall correctly, they are), but I gather from what you say that a Seer that is killed at night by werewolves will be killed before they get whatever vision they are looking to get that night.

Thanks for the clarification.*)
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Offline Yip

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2010, 02:40:07 am »
Well...  I believe it is time.

I withdraw my accusation of RedYoshi. I have no sensing powers. That was a ploy to draw out the real wolf. It was risky, and I'm not sure the best strategy, but it seems to have worked. Unless I am mistaken, Kaloth is the werewolf.

Offline Ickyrus

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2010, 02:54:39 am »
~sharpens his ropes~ I think Varr is quite mistaken. Werewolves have a talent for getting people on their side and not raising suspicions, also he stinks of otterbits. Cimmers is the werewolf :E He's too innocent to be anything else.

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2010, 03:46:50 am »
Werewolves have a talent for getting people on their side and not raising suspicions...
I don't see where that makes any difference here. What I'm talking about is that Kaloth pretty much told me he was the wolf. (though he wasn't direct about it, which is understandable since he would be trying to be cautious.) I don't see where a werewolf "getting people on their side" enters into it. Unless you are suggesting that redyoshi is the wolf and that he somehow convinced me of this, but that's obviously not what you are saying since you specifically named Cimerron as the wolf.

Offline Ickyrus

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2010, 04:04:12 am »
Who's on RY's side? He's just a crazy old man with a walking stick. Nobody listens to him. But Cimmers, Mr. I'm the Seer, look at me I wear sparkly shoes and I'ma save you all. Why would he say that knowing that if the werewolf isn't lynched he'll be eaten? ...unless he doesn't like the game and just wants to get out quickly. But I don't think that's it.

Offline Scrimno

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2010, 11:25:38 am »
...also he stinks of otterbits.

I happen to keep my bits clean and fresh, thank you :)
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Offline Ickyrus

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2010, 11:52:11 am »
Not when you're dead you don't, Corpsebreath. Really now, you're attracting maggots and flies and things it's quite nasty and upsetting the livestock.

Offline Scrimno

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2010, 01:12:00 pm »
Ouch. You cut me to the quick.
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Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2010, 01:46:56 pm »
I know the following to be true.  (Note that you, as different townspeople, will not necessarily know these things to be true.*)

  • I am an ordinary Villager.
  • Vararam was inaccurate when he said that I was a Werewolf; therefore, either he is not the Seer, or he is a Seer who is lying for some reason.

I assume the following to be true.

  • Cimarron is the Seer.  He is the only one other than Vararam who has claimed to be as such.
  • Cimarron had no reason to lie when he told me that his first vision was on Saloonka the non-Werewolf.  Therefore, Saloonka is not a Werewolf (though not necessarily not the Warlock).
  • The Seer would not lie about his visions.  Therefore, Vararam is not a lying Seer, and therefore is not a Seer at all.

If Vararam is not the Seer, then there are several possibilities for his role, and all have different implications.

  • Vararam could be a Warlock.
    For most of the (*game*) day so far, this is what I've considered to be the case.  To be honest, I'm still not comfortable with abandoning this possibility.  What Vararam did so far coincides with a nearly perfect Warlock strategy.  If this is true, then by process of elimation, Kaloth must be the Werewolf (Cimarron, Saloonka, Vararam, and myself are all non-Werewolf roles).  However, there are some things that suggest that this might not be the case.  For instance, he told me through PM that he would be willing to lynch Kaloth, who must be the Werewolf if all previous assumptions are true.  Of course, this could be a ploy to induce confusion (if it is, it's doing a good job).
  • Vararam could be a Villager.
    As I said, Vararam sent me a PM.  Among other things, he claimed to be a Villager (as he did in this thread as well).  Assuming this is true, then this again implies that Kaloth must be the Werewolf (Cimarron, Saloonka, Vararam, and myself are still all non-Werewolf roles).  It seems less likely in my mind, but the implications for what the Villagers should do in such a case are the same as before.  I'll get to why below.
  • Vararam could be a Werewolf.
    It does seem counterintuitive, but in spite of putting himself in more danger of being lynched, his actions do seem like a valid strategy for a Werewolf.  His goal would then to be to find the Warlock.  If he can do that, then he wins so long as he doesn't get lynched today.  Surprisingly, his actions could result in him *not* getting lynched; his audacity is his defense.  In such a case, the Warlock could be either Kaloth or Saloonka.  The fact that his PM to me asked if I received any PMs from people claiming to be Warlocks seems to support this possibility.  It's also important to note that this is the only case (from my perspective) under which Kaloth is *not* the Werewolf.

...

I was thinking a bit on how things might play out, and something occured to me...

Let's say that the Village kills the Warlock this (*game*) day.  The Werewolf would then survive to day 2, but would not have the benefit of a living Warlock to help him.

But I've heard tales that the dead can still cast their suspicions (*vote during the first phase*).  And with five townspeople, a single vote guarantees somebody a place on the chopping block.

The Werewolf could vote for one of the remaining living players, and the dead Warlock could cast suspicion on the other.  No matter how the other players voted, either the Werewolf would be the only player not on the chopping block (in which case he lynches somebody and wins) or all remaining players would be on the chopping block (in which case there is no lynching vote, and the Werewolf mauls somebody and wins).

Effectively, the villagers can only win if the Werewolf is killed *now*, or if the Werewolf and Warlock never managed to team up.  There is no margin of error; if the Villagers err, they are very likely to lose.

This also means that for an intelligent Werewolf and/or Warlock, finding the other member of the dark side is of high priority.  For the Warlock, it is *the* highest priority, even higher than that of finding the Seer, even higher than killing the Seer, and even higher than living.  If he succeeds in this, he merely needs to make sure that the Werewolf does not die by the first night's lynch.  After that, the dark side can force a win.

...

It is for this reason that I begrudingly place more weight to the possibility that Vararam is a Warlock.  He is intelligent (*as the last game should show for anybody who doubts this in the slightest*), and his actions, though they loudly beg for his death, are the most optimum that a Warlock could take in these circumstances.

As stated before, if Vararam is the Warlock, then Kaloth must be the Werewolf.  If this is true, then we Villagers cannot waste a single day before killing the Werewolf, not even to kill Vararam the Warlock.

Kaloth, I vote for you.  I hope I'm not wrong, and I'm sorry if I am.

...

Q.E.D. via the most *ridiculously* large argument...

Who's on RY's side? He's just a crazy old man with a walking stick. Nobody listens to him. But Cimmers, Mr. I'm the Seer, look at me I wear sparkly shoes and I'ma save you all. Why would he say that knowing that if the werewolf isn't lynched he'll be eaten? ...unless he doesn't like the game and just wants to get out quickly. But I don't think that's it.

He revealed himself to save my hide.

The real Seer would immediately know that anybody else claiming to be the Seer must be lying.  From the real Seer's perspective, I might still have been a Werewolf, but the chances of me being a Werewolf were still the same as anybody else being a Werewolf.  However, the Seer would have great reason to suspect anybody else claiming to be a Seer.  To to the time sensitive nature of finding a Werewolf in a small village, I imagine that Cimarron, as the real Seer, placed throwing suspicion on Vararam at a higher priority than a chance at his second vision.

I should also note that, because of the overwhelming power that the dark side wields should the Werewolf survive to day 2, the Seer's second night vision literally has no importance, even if it is right.  There is no loss for a Seer to come out (though this might not have necessarily been obvious).

Also, I'm neither crazy nor old, and that walking stick you refer to belongs to my parents.  And I'm a kid at heart, and a "man" in only the most technical of senses.
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Offline Scrimno

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2010, 02:13:25 pm »
But I've heard tales that the dead can still cast their suspicions (*vote during the first phase*).  And with five townspeople, a single vote guarantees somebody a place on the chopping block.

Allow me to clarify that only the two people with the highest votes usually get put on trial. The exception is for ties for second place.
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Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2010, 02:16:24 pm »
But I've heard tales that the dead can still cast their suspicions (*vote during the first phase*).  And with five townspeople, a single vote guarantees somebody a place on the chopping block.

Allow me to clarify that only the two people with the highest votes usually get put on trial. The exception is for ties for second place.

(*The Werewolf votes for one other living townsperson.  The dead Warlock votes for the third living townsperson.  How can the other three dead or living townspeople vote such that a living townsperson other than the Werewolf is not on the chopping block?  Even if every other player voted for the Werewolf, there would be a tie for second place.  Every living player would have sufficient accusation to be on the chopping block.  No player would be permitted to vote.  There would be no lynching.  The Werewolf would win.

Should two other townspeople vote for the Werewolf, there'd be a tie for first place, and the same would happen.  If only one person voted for the Werewolf, then there'd be a tie for either first place or second place, but there'd still be a tie, and the same would happen.  If nobody voted for the Werewolf, the werewolf would have full control of the lynching vote.  No matter what happens, the Werewolf could not be lynched if he had the cooperation of a dead Warlock.

That is why not killing the Werewolf the first round is *very* bad for the Villagers.*)

(*edit:  So wait...  If there is a tie for first place, then the person in second place does *not* get put on the chopping block...

Is that what you meant to say?*)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 02:25:50 pm by redyoshi49q »
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Offline Yip

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2010, 04:24:12 pm »
I don't see how the werewolf could force a win if the warlock is dead. Even if the dead can cast suspicions, it would still be 2 on the wolf's side and 3 on the villager's side same as the first 'day'. The only difference being two of them will be dead. The werewolf and warlock both have to survive and know who each other are in order to force a win on the second 'day'.

From my perspective, it's obvious we need to take out Kaloth. With the communications I've had with him, the only way I could see that he isn't a wolf would be if he's an extremely clever warlock, exploiting the fact that I as a villager tried to draw out the wolf.

I'm almost certain RedYoshi is as he said, an ordinary villager. If Kaloth is the wolf, RedYoshi cannot be. And if RedYoshi were the seer, he'd have filled us in on that by now as I'm sure he recognizes the gravity of the situation. And he told me he suspected Kaloth before I told him (I didn't tell him yet in case he was the warlock). Therefore, it's unlikely that RedYoshi is the warlock. This means he must be an ordinary villager like he says.

Cimerron must be the Seer since he's the only other one that's claimed to be other than myself (and I know I'm not the seer). This leaves Saloonka as the warlock, and from what I've heard from him thus far fits that role.


Offline Scrimno

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2010, 05:46:47 pm »
But I've heard tales that the dead can still cast their suspicions (*vote during the first phase*).  And with five townspeople, a single vote guarantees somebody a place on the chopping block.

Allow me to clarify that only the two people with the highest votes usually get put on trial. The exception is for ties for second place.
(*edit:  So wait...  If there is a tie for first place, then the person in second place does *not* get put on the chopping block...

Is that what you meant to say?*)
That is correct.
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Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Return of the Werewolf
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2010, 09:03:06 pm »
(*edit:  So wait...  If there is a tie for first place, then the person in second place does *not* get put on the chopping block...

Is that what you meant to say?*)
That is correct.

(*Ah.  Well, that makes things *much* better...*)

I don't see how the werewolf could force a win if the warlock is dead. Even if the dead can cast suspicions, it would still be 2 on the wolf's side and 3 on the villager's side same as the first 'day'. The only difference being two of them will be dead. The werewolf and warlock both have to survive and know who each other are in order to force a win on the second 'day'.

(*Sorry, I was under the impression that all ties for first and all ties for second from the first vote are on the chopping blcok.  If such a system is applied to five people, than anybody who was voted for would tie for either first or second place, no matter how the votes were distributed.  Consequently, anybody with any votes is automatically on the chopping block.  Once the number of living people reached 3, the Werewolf and Warlock could then force the two living non-Werewolves to the chopping block by giving each one vote.

With the system just confirmed by Scrimno, that scenario would still be a bit of a monkey wrench for the Villagers, but it would not be certain doom.  The remaining Villagers would have to make sure that the Werewolf got exactly two votes (paradoxically, if he gets three, everybody goes on the chopping block).*)

From my perspective, it's obvious we need to take out Kaloth. With the communications I've had with him, the only way I could see that he isn't a wolf would be if he's an extremely clever warlock, exploiting the fact that I as a villager tried to draw out the wolf.

I've had some communications with Kaloth as well...  in which he literally confessed to being the Werewolf (this was after your post on the forum).  I... would say that it's some sort of ploy, if it were not for the fact that the RL things he's mentioned were mentioned before this game...  not to mention the fact that there's not much to gain if he's the Warlock (given the rule clarification, the Werewolf only gains a single turn, but not much else).

Cimerron must be the Seer since he's the only other one that's claimed to be other than myself (and I know I'm not the seer). This leaves Saloonka as the warlock, and from what I've heard from him thus far fits that role.

That's my conclusion as well.
"Perfect normality is impossible.  Be unique!"
-- redyoshi49q




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