Incident In russia

[Riko]

in russia a school full of children and adults was taking hostage, by terrosists a bomb accidently went of and children fleed for there lives,most did not make it out alive and others are injured

i'm sickended by this, how are human beings capable of doing such a disgusting act apon there fellow, i just wanted to say how all my thoughts and prays go out to those, children and parents ,we a surely capable of doing such horrible,disgusting acts

[Keela]

I too am sickened to hear of this horrible news. I'm not religious but if there is a hell, I hope that's where those terrorists are going.

[OinnOtter]

That whole situation makes me want to vommit.. Seriously.. what the heck is wrong with people these days? Kinda like 9/11... whoever thought up that scenario needs serious psychoanalysis counselling.. Just like these people...


Oinn

[Kasarn]

I seem to be hearing that a lot now. "Terrorism is bad", "these evil terrorists". And the more I hear it, the more I want to defend their actions.
Have any of you ever done any research into Chechnya and what is going on there. Sure, killing children is bad, especially when it is outside of the country you are trying to free, but when compared to what could almost be called genocide, I'm not so sure.
If those "terrorists" really were "freedom fighters" as claimed. Then I almost feel they have every right to go and do what they did, after all, hasn't the Russian military gone around Chechnya, a supposedly independant country (even if it is still officially recognised as a Russian Republic), and killed thousands of innocent people and arrested countless more, all of which occured after the war there ended?

Sorry, but this really annoys me. Because it, and all the other Chechen rebel/terrorist drama could have easily been avoided if Russia would just secede Chechnya to its people like they said they would.
I mean, come on, even the European Union has slammed the Russian government for being the cause of the Chechen problem. And with Russia's increasingly xenophobic population (that's a broad generalisation), I can see more trouble ahead.

So yes, these Chechens went over the line, and that is inexcusable, but when all media and diplomatic routes are closed to them (by the Russians, no less), and they have already gone rather extreme (theatre siege), and since the world still seems ignore them, what else can they do to make the world pay attention?


EDIT: edited about a thousand times
EDIT: Thought for the day (a generalisation on perception, I can't remember how the actual one goes, so I just substituted terms)
Kill ten people and you're a murderer
Kill one hundred people and you're a monster
Kill one thousand people and you're a hero
Kill ten thousand people and you're a saviour

[Varg the wanderer]

First of all, 10 of the terrorists were arab.  And the terrorist group that did this has ties to al Quida

    Anyone who takes children hostage or kills children, especially in a school, is sick, twisted, and should have been drownd as a pup.  I applaude the russians for acting decisivly, and I applaud the towns people who stood armed with guns from home next to the soilders and shot at the terrorists.  The terrorists who took over the school had so many people crammed together they were lying on top of eachother, and they wouldn't let any one drink anything or eat or even go to the bathroom.  

g2g now, more later....

[Prince Karo]

Quote (Kasarn @ Sep. 05 2004, 4:28 am)

So yes, these Chechens went over the line, and that is inexcusable, but when all media and diplomatic routes are closed to them (by the Russians, no less), and they have already gone rather extreme (movie theatre siege), and since the world still seems ignore them, what else can they do to make the world pay attention?

Well, making themselves out to be such barbairians is certainly not helping things... If they can't show more sensitivity and restraint in their actions, they hardly deserve thier own country...

[Nocte]

Quote (Kasarn @ Sep. 05 2004, 1:28 pm)

Sorry, but this really annoys me. Because it, and all the other Chechen rebel/terrorist drama could have easily been avoided if Russia would just secede Chechnya to its people like they said they would.

Are you sure about this? The Russian army retreated from Chechnya in 1996, and that didn't work too well. (The group that is trying to establish a conservative Muslim regime that region tried to take over the province of  Dagestan next. I'm not under the impression that it's as simple as them being "freedom fighters" for the Chechnians.)

I agree that Putin responded with way too much violence in 1999, and that the European Union should show some backbone (and not just to Russia). But that does not mean I should feel sympathy for a bunch of terrorists that run into a school and start executing kids.

Quote (Keela @ Sep. 05 2004, 5:21 am)

I too am sickened to hear of this horrible news. I'm not religious but if there is a hell, I hope that's where those terrorists are going.

No matter where they go, it will be Hell for them.  People that can, without hesitation, butcher children, have sickened spirits that will torment themselves wherever they go.  Even if their derranged version of the afterlife does exist, a spirit that corrupted will only be able to find happiness by dilluding itself into believing everyone else is burning in 'the other place.'  

Wether it is Chechnen rebels or Al-Quaeda should be irrelevant.  Anyone that counts children among their numbers is not worthy of having a cause.

[BlutWulf]

Putin should just go all-out Stalin on the radical Muslims in the region. Send them all to Siberia. This is not the only sick act they have committed in this war, they have videos of many of them on the internet even. Covering a Russian baby in gasoline for instance and lighting it on fire. Sick, subhuman, worthless filth; they should all be anhililated.

Quote (BlutWulf @ Sep. 05 2004, 4:18 pm)

Putin should just go all-out Stalin on the radical Muslims in the region. Send them all to Siberia. This is not the only sick act they have committed in this war, they have videos of many of them on the internet even. Covering a Russian baby in gasoline for instance and lighting it on fire. Sick, subhuman, worthless filth; they should all be anhililated.

I wouldn't go as far as anihilating all of them, but Siberia does sound like a good place for them.  Not so much because of the harsh climate and murderous winter, but because it'd be a perfect place for them to be completely isolated from both fanatics like Bin Laden and co, and also from the people they have been trained to hate.  It wouldn't have to be Sibera -- just some place where they will be completely isolated from the world and where they'll have a lot of free time to reflect on all the horrible things they've done.

[Kasarn]

Quote (Unicorn @ Sep. 05 2004, 12:38 pm)

Quote (Kasarn @ Sep. 05 2004, 1:28 pm) Sorry, but this really annoys me. Because it, and all the other Chechen rebel/terrorist drama could have easily been avoided if Russia would just secede Chechnya to its people like they said they would. Are you sure about this? The Russian army retreated from Chechnya in 1996, and that didn't work too well. (The group that is trying to establish a conservative Muslim regime that region tried to take over the province of  Dagestan next. I'm not under the impression that it's as simple as them being "freedom fighters" for the Chechnians.) I agree that Putin responded with way too much violence in 1999, and that the European Union should show some backbone (and not just to Russia). But that does not mean I should feel sympathy for a bunch of terrorists that run into a school and start executing kids.

Terrorist acts, like this, should not be condoned in any way, and these guys were a bunch of sickos for what they did and should go straight to hell.
But my view is that when a country makes a "shadow" government because they don't trust the actual government, it's probably time to let them run themselves.

[BlutWulf]

Quote

Not so much because of the harsh climate and murderous winter, but because it'd be a perfect place for them to be completely isolated from both fanatics like Bin Laden and co, and also from the people they have been trained to hate.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of simply letting them freeze to death. But yeah, the above works too I guess.

On a side note...

Quote

a bomb accidently went off

I doubt that was an accident.

[Admiral Purge]

It's an interesting story. I heard that the number of students in that school approaches(d?) 800.

However, before I continue, I have to clarify some stuff about these "rebels". These were, as I believe it is generally known, Islamic Terrorists. Chechnya is legally and rightfully a part of Russia, but they want to break off and secede. They want to govern themselves. Fine? Not really, but I'll get to that shortly. The state they want to establish is the kind of Islamic Police state that nobody likes... rampant human rights violations, breeding ground for international "Jihad Jihad" terrorists, the whole 9 yards. Bad times.

And no, it's not ok for them to just secede. Remember what happened when the Confederate states seceded from the Union? Is anybody going to argue that Lincoln didn't have the right to reach into the South and layeth the smacketh down in order to restore the Union? Remember, it wasn't originally about slavery. But wait... an extremist Islamic nation in the making... that's slavery, and not just in the ideological sense. Nobody is ignorant of what happens to women under such rule, for example.

Islam is not the only international religion that is utterly loathsome and disgusting when taken to its logical conclusion.

That said, I'm not sure I condemn the act itself. That requires some serious thought on my part. Is their cause just? Not in my opinion, no. But to them it is, and I can't prove that extremist Islam isn't the best religion for everybody anyway. I try to place myself in their shoes... I'm still not seeing going after kids. Smart move if they wanted to make Russia release captives, but nobody is releasing anybody at this point... the US would have throttled Russia alive diplomatically if they had released so much as an errand boy.

In the end, I have to say that I don't know enough about military actions to condemn or applaud the actual tactic. It seems like the best way to get Russia to capitulate, but it was still a long shot. I find their cause detestable though, and I think Russia should have stormed the place immediately to catch the Terrorists by surprise and try to minimize casualties (since it should have been painfully obvious that negotiation would be futile). Oh well.

Quote (BlutWulf @ Sep. 05 2004, 7:53 pm)

I was thinking of something more along the lines of simply letting them freeze to death. But yeah, the above works too I guess.

Well... I don't want to get too religious, but the way I figure it, if there is a God, that would make our conciences the voice of God.  Therefore, I feel the best possible consequence for people who commit atrocities in the name of God would be to be isolated somewhere where their only company would be the voice of God.

A big part of fanatacism is the ability to label yourself one thing and everyone else another ('Muslim' and 'Infidel,' for example), which is essentially what allows someone's conscience to become distorted (He's just a baby, but he's also an infidel and that means it's okay to set him on fire).  Of course, if you're the only one around, that makes being a Muslim etc. pretty meaningless.  I figure after two or three years, they'd forget the titles, but they would still remember some of the things they'd done in the past.  I don't think anyone could dilude themselves for longer than a year, so if something like that could be accomplished, they'd all either beg for forgiveness or kill themselves.

The people that commit these atrocities have the luxury of being told to do them; they can dilude themselves into thinking it is righteous because somebody they think is closer to God told them to do it.  The people that tell them to do these things -- Osama and the like, have a different luxury; they never have to see the results of their commands.  So, if the US army ever does find Osama, everyone that has a home video of a friend or family member that died in an Al-Queda attack should make a copy of it and send it his way.

I know that sounds pretty cruel, but the truth about yourself can only be as painful as you let it become -- it's not my fault these guys are evil.

[Humbajoe]

OK, from what I've gathered from what I've read about the situation so far, this is what is going through these terrorists/rebels minds:



I don't understand how these people's brains function.

[Kasarn]

I'll give Russia points for bringing democracy to Chechnya and holding it there. But Chechnya should be as much a part of Russia as Australia, Canada and New Zealand are part of England (it's a bad analogy, I know).
Otherwise Russia might as well just reform the USSR under the CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States, basically the countries of the USSR minus 3).

But even under their current system (which the people don't really have a problem with, since they generally like Russia and democracy), Russia still indirectly controls everything, which is where the problem lies. And the rather shady election held recently only fanned the flames (75% of votes is a little high when there are seven candidates).

It's the same with terrorists in Saudi-Arabia. The Saudi terrorists can see that the United States has a huge vested interest, and the House of Saud seems to do what the US wants, regardless of what their religion says, therefore the US (and the House of Saud) is evil.
It's a slippery slope of logic, but without the ability to find out if they are wrong, it seems to be the correct course of action for those people with little left.

Alrite here goes, bare in mind I hav'nt heard the details about this situation:
The goal of the terrorists where to get russia mind its own business about chechnya...So they took 500+ children hostage and used them to force the russian goverment to pull out of chechnya. Right? I think its a very good chance that a bomb accedently detonated, think about it... If they did choose to detonate that bomb they would lose all bargining power, most of the hostages would be killed and the russians would storm the place, so if they planned on using the hostages in negotiations they would have nothing to go on and be stuffed!
Now everyone is saying that they are barbaric children killers, they could be a good chance that they did not want to kill these children, think a child hostage would be worth a heck of a lot more than an adult hostage! It was a desperate ploy but it would have worked!
Now I heard that the russian CT's got the smart idea of blowing off a wall of the gym so that when they storm the place the hostages would run out through the wall... Sure it was a great idea but the hostages were very close to that wall! (Not sure if thats true) and we all know how well the russians are when it comes to hostage situations (theatre anyone?)

All up I think that the terrorists buggered it up BIG TIME and the russian police didnt help the situation!
And of course my thoughts go out to the familys of the victems...

[anguis]

Each culture has their own ways of dealing with things... what is acceptable for us to do may just not be acceptable for them. All in all it is a very complicated and delicate issue.

These people truly believe what they are doing is right... and to a degree who can really blame them? I mean if that is what they have been taught all thier lives what do you honestly expect them to do?

I am under 'no' circumstances agreeing to what their are doing because according to 'my' belief system it is something I see to be extremely wrong, but I for one wont judge anyone and what they believe in. Right now there is no concrete answer to "who determines right from wrong" that satisfies every religion or belief system.

When I hear of things like this all I can be is thankful that I do not live there.

I'd like to think the terrorists didn't want to kill any of the hostages, but... Keep in mind these people have also decapatated and set fire to their hostages in front of a rolling video camera.  The problem is that these people are acting in the name of religion -- in their eyes, Russia and their allies are the devil, so bargaining isn't exactly their highest priority.

I'd also like to think an independent Chechnyea would work, but Fundamentalist governments are the most prone to misbehavior.  The Russians could pull out and have peace for a time, but fanatics are capable of doing anything in the name of religion.  All I can picture coming out of a fundamentalist Chechnyea is another Taliban.

So... It's not really a situation that can be won.  The most Russia really can do is try to prevent as many casualties as possible.

[Sporty Fox]

There have been some very good points mentioned so far, but no-one has mentioned this one. The Russian elections are coming up. In the week before the elections in Spain Muslim extremists killed over 180 in Madrid. Less than two weeks ago Chechnian Muslim extremists brought down two Russian airliners within minutes of each other. Last week they held and killed hostages in a Russian bank.
  This week they murdered school children. Not killed, not sacrificed, not made martyrs- they murdered them. They shot them in the back as they fled for thier lives. Even if one uses the pretext of them being freedom fighters, one fights against the established military and government for freedom, not civilians, and certainly not children.
   In each of these cases they have been Al-Quada backed groups, and in countries readying for an election.

[Admiral Purge]

I'm still not sure whether or not to compare the shooting of civilians in these cases to the carpet bombing of cities that occured during WWII, which is why I can neither condemn nor applaud the tactic itself. Perhaps someone can clarify what exactly the difference is.

[Lurch]

Quote (Admiral Purge @ Sep. 06 2004, 11:29 am)

I'm still not sure whether or not to compare the shooting of civilians in these cases to the carpet bombing of cities that occured during WWII, which is why I can neither condemn nor applaud the tactic itself. Perhaps someone can clarify what exactly the difference is.

There is no difference. The thing is, that there are different types of conflict. Everything from Geneva convention approved war to torture to bombings to suicide attacks to killing innocents. It all sucks, and as long as humans are on this planet this will go on. It is sad for me to hear any of this, and can feel fortunate that I was born in the US, others never had a chance.

Quote (Admiral Purge @ Sep. 06 2004, 11:29 am)

I'm still not sure whether or not to compare the shooting of civilians in these cases to the carpet bombing of cities that occured during WWII, which is why I can neither condemn nor applaud the tactic itself. Perhaps someone can clarify what exactly the difference is.

I can only think of two real differences to set them apart.  This doesn't mean I approve one and disapprove of the other, but it does mean I see there is a difference.

1) The carpet bombing occured in a battle of nations.  The hostage executions took place during a (for lack of a better word) religion-based revolution.

2) Carpet bombing is an attack on the city which unfortunately result in civilian casualties.  Attacks like those performed by the Al-Qaeda sects are direct attacks on civilians.

[BlutWulf]

More details from captives held inside the school....

"THE full horror of the Russian school atrocity began to emerge yesterday as traumatised children told horrific tales of stabbed babies and brutal rapes.

It has also emerged that scores of the 323 who died - including many children - had been shot in the back.

While despairing soldiers and rescue workers moved among the growing pile of body bags, it was revealed that an 18-month-old baby had been repeatedly stabbed by a black-clad terrorist who had run out of ammunition.

Other survivors told how screaming teenage girls were dragged into rooms adjoining the gymnasium where they were being held and raped by their Chechen captors who chillingly made a video film of their appalling exploits."


I still say anihilate them, such scum do not deserve to live.

I just saw on the news. They have found a video the terrorists made before it ended, It looks pretty damn bad!
There LARGE amounts of expolsives and what looks like a few claymores pointing into the crowds of children!

All I can say along with all our thoughts going out to the familys, we should also think of the chechnyians...The civilians of course, Because of the rebels making such a horrific attack Russia's counter attack will be messy and painful, I have a feeling a lot of innocent chechnyian civilians are going to get it.


I was thinking, why does Russia want to cling on to chechnya?
It was no religous significance, no mineral wealth etc... Is there any real reason why Russia won't leave chechnya alone?