Incident In russia

[Kasarn]

Quote (Terastas @ Sep. 07 2004, 7:30 pm)

Quote (Admiral Purge @ Sep. 06 2004, 11:29 am) I'm still not sure whether or not to compare the shooting of civilians in these cases to the carpet bombing of cities that occured during WWII, which is why I can neither condemn nor applaud the tactic itself. Perhaps someone can clarify what exactly the difference is. I can only think of two real differences to set them apart.  This doesn't mean I approve one and disapprove of the other, but it does mean I see there is a difference. 1) The carpet bombing occured in a battle of nations.  The hostage executions took place during a (for lack of a better word) religion-based revolution. 2) Carpet bombing is an attack on the city which unfortunately result in civilian casualties.  Attacks like those performed by the Al-Qaeda sects are direct attacks on civilians.

Quote (Blutwulf @ Sep. 07 2004, 7:33 pm)

I still say anihilate them, such scum do not deserve to live.

reductio ad absurdum

Russia should declare all out war on the Caucasus region, declare a Scorched Earth policy, drop some nukes and then all the terrorists/seperatists/militias would be dead and the civilians would just be unfortunate casualties of war.
Of course, we could take this a step further and say all the people in the Causcasus region are potential extremists, therefore they weren't civilians at all and were valid targets due to their beliefs.


Of course, that's just a stupid exaggeration, and there definately is a difference between carpet bombing a city during a war in a war-zone to attacking a civilian institution outside of a war-zone.


And as for why Russia wants Chechnya, they had their reasons, but I think it has degenerated into essentially a no-win situation.
If Russia pulls out and leaves them completely alone, Chechnya falls apart and becomes a focal point for extremists who blame Russia for letting it happen.
If Russia stays put or goes into "non-interference mode", Chechnya stays together, but becomes a focal point for extremists who want complete Chechnyan independence.

[BlutWulf]

Quote

I was thinking, why does Russia want to cling on to chechnya? It was no religous significance, no mineral wealth etc... Is there any real reason why Russia won't leave chechnya alone?

The fighting has been going on for over 200 years... The Chechens fight because of pride in their nation, and for Islam... Russia has interest in the region however because of it's oil reserves, plus it's biggest aviation fuel refinery is in Grozny. Also, the cheapest route for oil from Azerbaijani offshore oil fields is through Chechnya.

[Ursan]

Quote (Kasarn @ Sep. 05 2004, 7:28 am)

I seem to be hearing that a lot now. "Terrorism is bad", "these evil terrorists". And the more I hear it, the more I want to defend their actions. Have any of you ever done any research into Chechnya and what is going on there. Sure, killing children is bad, especially when it is outside of the country you are trying to free, but when compared to what could almost be called genocide, I'm not so sure. If those "terrorists" really were "freedom fighters" as claimed. Then I almost feel they have every right to go and do what they did, after all, hasn't the Russian military gone around Chechnya, a supposedly independant country (even if it is still officially recognised as a Russian Republic), and killed thousands of innocent people and arrested countless more, all of which occured after the war there ended? Sorry, but this really annoys me. Because it, and all the other Chechen rebel/terrorist drama could have easily been avoided if Russia would just secede Chechnya to its people like they said they would. I mean, come on, even the European Union has slammed the Russian government for being the cause of the Chechen problem. And with Russia's increasingly xenophobic population (that's a broad generalisation), I can see more trouble ahead. So yes, these Chechens went over the line, and that is inexcusable, but when all media and diplomatic routes are closed to them (by the Russians, no less), and they have already gone rather extreme (theatre siege), and since the world still seems ignore them, what else can they do to make the world pay attention? EDIT: edited about a thousand times EDIT: Thought for the day (a generalisation on perception, I can't remember how the actual one goes, so I just substituted terms) Kill ten people and you're a murderer Kill one hundred people and you're a monster Kill one thousand people and you're a hero Kill ten thousand people and you're a saviour

Freedom fighters DO NOT intentionally kill civilians. Especially not innocent children.

It doesn't matter what has happened to Chechnya, it does not validate slaughtering children and as an example of how the Chechen's would act as a nation its not very persuasive for their cause.

I find the attitude of 'an eye for an eye' somewhat sickening, especially in this context and somewhat disheartening considering that we are supposed to be living in a more enlightened world.

[Kasarn]

Quote (Ursan @ Sep. 07 2004, 9:21 pm)

Freedom fighters DO NOT intentionally kill civilians. Especially not innocent children. It doesn't matter what has happened to Chechnya, it does not validate slaughtering children and as an example of how the Chechen's would act as a nation its not very persuasive for their cause. I find the attitude of 'an eye for an eye' somewhat sickening, especially in this context and somewhat disheartening considering that we are supposed to be living in a more enlightened world.

Yes, we can agree that it wasn't true Chechens seperatists who did this, but Islamic extremists. But take the recent rally in Moscow. They call it an anti-terrorist rally, but the overall mood was "Destroy Chechnya"

But then, how does the Russian military's unofficial policy of randomly arresting / executing Chechens in Chechnya help anything?

Russia isn't like the western world. Freedom as the western world knows it does not exist and an eye-for-an-eye is commonplace, after all, the Russian government has a history for making people "disappear" for opposing them (especially Russian journalists).

As for my views on this, I only support Chechen independance because to do otherwise would be a double-standard (even if it's not crystal clear). After all I supported the independance of East Timor and support the West Papuans fight to be independant as well (which is a somewhat similar situation, just that there aren't as many extremists, but the Indonesian military has gone around killing West Papuans claiming they were terrorists).

EDIT: removed a really bad comparison and changed some terms

[BlutWulf]

When I said anihilate, I was talking about the Islamic extremists, not everyone in the Caucasus region. Or were you too high on your horse of psuedo-intellectuality to grasp that? I know people who have been murdered, have friends whose families have been torn apart by your prescious "freedom fighters". I'm in no way condoning acts of violence by Russian soldiers on Chechen civilians, either, and such acts should result in extreme punishment. But please, at least have an idea as to what you are talking about before you open your mouth.

[Savaaha]

Enough flames folks...