Poll

Should Confederate memorials be taken down?

Yes
8 (50%)
No
8 (50%)
Undecided
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.  (Read 403 times)

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Offline Kobuk

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Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« on: August 15, 2017, 03:14:37 pm »
News story:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/confederate-statue-pulled-down-north-carolina-trnd/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/donald-trump-robert-e-lee/index.html

Read the news stories, then ask yourselves and decide if Confederate memorials should be taken down? IMO, I feel it's wrong to remove them. In short, it's "revisionist history".  >:(  As Trump said, How far will it go? Will memorials to Washington or Jefferson be next? Should we demolish the Great Pyramid in Egypt because it was built by slaves? Granted, a lot of bad things happened throughout history. But they are still history nonetheless and should never be forgotten.
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Offline Shim

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2017, 03:30:09 pm »
News story:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/confederate-statue-pulled-down-north-carolina-trnd/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/donald-trump-robert-e-lee/index.html

Read the news stories, then ask yourselves and decide if Confederate memorials should be taken down? IMO, I feel it's wrong to remove them. In short, it's "revisionist history".  >:(  As Trump said, How far will it go? Will memorials to Washington or Jefferson be next? Should we demolish the Great Pyramid in Egypt because it was built by slaves? Granted, a lot of bad things happened throughout history. But they are still history nonetheless and should never be forgotten.

Kobuk are you actually serious right now.

Are you actually serious?

Punch nazis in the face.
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2017, 03:54:42 pm »
News story:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/confederate-statue-pulled-down-north-carolina-trnd/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/donald-trump-robert-e-lee/index.html

Read the news stories, then ask yourselves and decide if Confederate memorials should be taken down? IMO, I feel it's wrong to remove them. In short, it's "revisionist history".  >:(  As Trump said, How far will it go? Will memorials to Washington or Jefferson be next? Should we demolish the Great Pyramid in Egypt because it was built by slaves? Granted, a lot of bad things happened throughout history. But they are still history nonetheless and should never be forgotten.

Kobuk are you actually serious right now.

Are you actually serious?

Punch nazis in the face.

Yes, Shim. I am serious. Just because I'm advocating leaving the memorials up does not mean in any way that I am advocating hate, the Confederacy, hate groups, or anything else of the sort. I don't like a lot of the bad things that happened during the Civil War and/or some of the people who did them. Memorials of any kind serve multiple purposes and have many meanings. But those Confederate memorials also are a way to get people to understand that we should never forget our past and not repeat the mistakes that we have made.
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Offline Varg the wanderer

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2017, 05:17:11 pm »
Do you know who else is adamant about destroying monuments that go against their ideals? ISIS. They want to rewrite history because they do not like it, and many of these people who want to destroy Confederate monuments do too. Be cautious of anyone who takes offence to the records of history. You do not have to like it, just respect that it happened.
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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 05:37:27 pm »
There is a difference between respecting that a terrible thing happened and not forgetting it, and celebrating that thing.

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Offline Shim

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 06:05:07 pm »
Do you know who else is adamant about destroying monuments that go against their ideals? ISIS. They want to rewrite history because they do not like it, and many of these people who want to destroy Confederate monuments do too. Be cautious of anyone who takes offence to the records of history. You do not have to like it, just respect that it happened.

Not forgetting history is not the same as taking down racist memorial statues of people who wanted other people dead. How is this even a debate

PUNCH NAZIS IN THE FACE
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 06:11:48 pm by Shim »
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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2017, 07:04:08 pm »
I agree with Shim's statement with punching Nazis in the face, especially the pretenders that call themselves neo-nazies. Ever seen "The Blues Brothers"? I love the bridge scene.

The civil war was a subject that has been a hot debate even before it was started. It has never been wholly settled, but people were united as a nation until a small group of people took it upon themselves to force their views upon another.

Personally I find people who burn American flags to be extremely offensive, and I think they should be arrested for doing so at a minimum... though perhaps they should be shown the same kind of "peaceful" protest they have thus so far shown others. Regardless I haven't demanded that they be arrested and tried and put into prison, nor have I looted anyone's store or curb stomped anyone's face in because in the United States you have that right. If the citizens of a city, state, or nation want a monument put up to the flying spaghetti monster what right do others have to tell them to tear it down?
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Offline Shim

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2017, 07:49:54 pm »
I agree with Shim's statement with punching Nazis in the face, especially the pretenders that call themselves neo-nazies. Ever seen "The Blues Brothers"? I love the bridge scene.

The civil war was a subject that has been a hot debate even before it was started. It has never been wholly settled, but people were united as a nation until a small group of people took it upon themselves to force their views upon another.

Personally I find people who burn American flags to be extremely offensive, and I think they should be arrested for doing so at a minimum... though perhaps they should be shown the same kind of "peaceful" protest they have thus so far shown others. Regardless I haven't demanded that they be arrested and tried and put into prison, nor have I looted anyone's store or curb stomped anyone's face in because in the United States you have that right. If the citizens of a city, state, or nation want a monument put up to the flying spaghetti monster what right do others have to tell them to tear it down?

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 01:31:08 am »
Let's look at other memorials. Starting small.

When someone gets hit by a car and killed, there are pictures of the victim. Flowers to them. Remembering them. Not the attacker.

When someone shoots up a school, the memorials are of the kids. To the kids. About the kids. Not about the shooter.

When a world war happens, the memorials are of those fighting against oppression and death. Not supporting, for instance, the Nazis. Not celebrating them.

That's the issue, here. These statues are of the aggressors. They're honouring the wrong side. It is easily possible to make a memorial to the horrible events that happened without highlighting and glorifying the slave owners.

Civil rights and the emancipation of the slaves should be celebrated. 70 years post Holocaust, Germany is still ashamed of the Nazis. 150 years post the many many people who died in slavery, there are still people talking about the South rising again.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 03:22:14 am by Loc »

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Offline cause the rat

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 07:23:10 am »
I don't think they should be taken down either. These people are depriving future generations the joy of pointing at it and saying. "Yes, they even erect statues of losers."

Make America great again. If you can hit a nazi and his head hits a alt right. Your a hero. It's a free country. No one is forcing them to live here. If they don't like what America stands for they can leave. We don't need them.
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Offline Michen_S

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 08:32:07 am »
I think it should stay. Let it be a reminder of what happened, so that the same mistake will not be made twice. Let it be a place to think of the battle people fought for, for freedom in any way. And let it be a way to celebrate the freedom you have now.

However, taking down those statues is solving voilence with violence. Though that has helped in the past, in this case all the necessary violence has already happened long ago. Now you're just pouring fire over an issue that has cooled down for decades, and that could well lead to other problems nobody needs nor wants. If you really want to have those statues removed regardless, start a petition or something like that. At least then it's official and far less likely to escalate.
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 09:00:54 am »
Not all Confederate memorials are being taken down permanently. Some are being "relocated" according to this list.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/us/confederate-memorial-removal-us-trnd/index.html
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Offline Old Rabbit

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 10:25:58 am »
The problem with the confederat/civil war statues is
they were put up as a protest to the US Governments
desicians against the rights of southern states that were
in the confederacy during the civil war. Mainly at the end of
reconstruction around 1900 to the 1920's The battle flag
was part of an political statement in the late 1940's.

Instead of being for history they are still  a protest
by those who lost the uncivil war. They should be
relagated to museums and cemetarys dedicated
to confederat soldiers. If an individual wishes to
have one on his/her property, so be it as a right of
free speech. But not in public or government places.
After all the confederacy lost the war.
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Offline Shim

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2017, 10:27:02 am »
I think it should stay. Let it be a reminder of what happened, so that the same mistake will not be made twice. Let it be a place to think of the battle people fought for, for freedom in any way. And let it be a way to celebrate the freedom you have now.

However, taking down those statues is solving voilence with violence. Though that has helped in the past, in this case all the necessary violence has already happened long ago. Now you're just pouring fire over an issue that has cooled down for decades, and that could well lead to other problems nobody needs nor wants. If you really want to have those statues removed regardless, start a petition or something like that. At least then it's official and far less likely to escalate.

Because your racist congressmen in your racist town in your racist state is going to take down statues of their childhood heroes who almost didn't fail at keeping slavery legal.

THAT'LL LEARN 'EM. THAT SOUNDS LIKELY.

Maybe try petitioning the Nazis to not try to kill all the Jews?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 10:40:58 am by Shim »
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Offline Shim

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2017, 01:33:19 pm »
News story:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/confederate-statue-pulled-down-north-carolina-trnd/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/donald-trump-robert-e-lee/index.html

Read the news stories, then ask yourselves and decide if Confederate memorials should be taken down? IMO, I feel it's wrong to remove them. In short, it's "revisionist history".  >:(  As Trump said, How far will it go? Will memorials to Washington or Jefferson be next? Should we demolish the Great Pyramid in Egypt because it was built by slaves? Granted, a lot of bad things happened throughout history. But they are still history nonetheless and should never be forgotten.

Do the ancient Egyptians which still totally exist think that Jews should be serving them and their Pharaoh, which again they totally have in 2017? Are you serious ARE YOU SERIOUS KOBUK
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Offline Michen_S

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2017, 03:15:01 pm »
The problem with the confederat/civil war statues is
they were put up as a protest to the US Governments
desicians against the rights of southern states that were
in the confederacy during the civil war. Mainly at the end of
reconstruction around 1900 to the 1920's The battle flag
was part of an political statement in the late 1940's.

Instead of being for history they are still  a protest
by those who lost the uncivil war. They should be
relagated to museums and cemetarys dedicated
to confederat soldiers. If an individual wishes to
have one on his/her property, so be it as a right of
free speech. But not in public or government places.
After all the confederacy lost the war.

Well, if that's the case I can see why people reacted so agressively. I have to admit I don't know much besides that the war was fought against slavery, nor do I know who actually put the statues up for what reason. It seems that even the inhabitants of the US are divided regarding why the statues were put up, so I'll leave it to them as long as they contact the local authorities first (like what I meant to say with it being official in my first post).
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Offline Shim

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 04:01:16 pm »
The problem with the confederat/civil war statues is
they were put up as a protest to the US Governments
desicians against the rights of southern states that were
in the confederacy during the civil war. Mainly at the end of
reconstruction around 1900 to the 1920's The battle flag
was part of an political statement in the late 1940's.

Instead of being for history they are still  a protest
by those who lost the uncivil war. They should be
relagated to museums and cemetarys dedicated
to confederat soldiers. If an individual wishes to
have one on his/her property, so be it as a right of
free speech. But not in public or government places.
After all the confederacy lost the war.

Well, if that's the case I can see why people reacted so agressively. I have to admit I don't know much besides that the war was fought against slavery, nor do I know who actually put the statues up for what reason. It seems that even the inhabitants of the US are divided regarding why the statues were put up, so I'll leave it to them as long as they contact the local authorities first (like what I meant to say with it being official in my first post).

The local authorities had 150 years to apologize and do take down those statues. What makes you think it was going to change? It was well past "contact the local authorities". If you think people haven't been trying to get these monuments removed for years and years, you're only kidding yourself.

The people did this because it needed to be done and the government wouldn't.

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 08:33:27 am »
I understand there are strong feelings associated
with this. We can agree to disagree, but let's keep
it within our rules. Thank you.


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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 11:37:00 pm »
I say the issue is more complex. I rather err on the side of liberty as a Black man. Those who are calling for the removal of confederate monuments are  closer to ISIS, the Taliban,   Chinese during cultural revolution, and soviet communism than  freedom fighters.

As for violence  when fighting violence  with more violence ever solved the problem.   

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 05:12:04 am »
I'm curious - to people who want the statues to stay, do you also think that the statues of Saddam Hussein shouldn't have been toppled? I mean, they're an important part of history too, right?

Trump rambled on about people like Washington having their statues taken down next, because he was a slave owner. However, people like Washington are not EXCLUSIVELY famous for keeping slaves. They did things which -actually- made the country, or made it a decent country, and their statues honour those things. Lee's sole contribution was to fight to keep his slaves. And that's what his statues represent - The slave-owners kitted up for war, riding off to defend keeping other people as property. This is what we have problems with, and what no one on the side of keeping the statues has said anything about yet - You can memorialise a horrible event as a lesson without glorifying the wrong side. If those statues were of slaves being freed, or the slave owners NOT in a position of power, people would not have issues with them.

Removing a statue doesn't suddenly make an event not happen. There are books, the internet. It is literally impossible to wipe the slave owners off the map at this point. Removing the statues is not a "slippery slope" at all. It's simply saying "America is not proud of our racist, enslaving past".
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 05:28:55 am by Loc »

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Offline Old Rabbit

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2017, 10:00:59 am »
I think it's sad that our country is still divided by the civil war. At
the end we should have worked to heal the nation, not just repair
it structurally, but mentally.

As Obama said people aren't born with hate or racist feelings. We
learn it. We should try to educate the young to understand
differences in culture and how to respect each other.

It only takes a few misguided people to ruin public
harmony. Ignorance endangers us all.

Confederate monuments without a plaque giving
the true history about the monument can be
misleading. Especially when in a government
setting. Hiding true history is bad as it can cause
us to repeat it.

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2017, 07:03:52 am »
I think it's sad that our country is still divided by the civil war. At
the end we should have worked to heal the nation, not just repair
it structurally, but mentally.

As Obama said people aren't born with hate or racist feelings. We
learn it. We should try to educate the young to understand
differences in culture and how to respect each other.

It only takes a few misguided people to ruin public
harmony. Ignorance endangers us all.



Confederate monuments without a plaque giving
the true history about the monument can be
misleading. Especially when in a government
setting. Hiding true history is bad as it can cause
us to repeat it.

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Re: Removing Confederate statues and memorials.
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2017, 02:35:03 am »
I think its easy to demonize confederates and nazis. Truth is, most of those people were brainwashed and led to believe things that reinforced a system that violated human rights. You can bet the commoners were disturbed by it, but systematic suppression causes people to do horrible things. That kind of thing doesn't fly nowadays, and for good reason. Lee on his high horse might have been a good general and a gentleman, but it also a clear symbol of defending that systematic suppression.

One would hope that southern whites have a lot more to be proud of than clinging on to concept of the confederate states of America and its legacy of slavery. It comes off like an excuse for white pride. There are surely better symbols of the South than the confederate flag.

Washington and Jefferson were southern whites who owned slaves, but they were integral to the formation of the United States who worked for the welfare of the American people. They worked tirelessly against the violation of human rights, and yet still were guilty of tolerating racism and systematic oppression. I think a lot of people have negative feelings on their slavery, and rightfully so, I think they themselves felt conflicted about it toward the later parts of their lives, but did little to help it. In spite of that, I don't see their monuments in DC going down any time soon. Their overall contributions are too heroic. I think we should be asking why they weren't abolitionists before repurposing their monuments. Part of me thinks that they fell victim to the systematic suppression that reinforced the hideous notion that whites were the "superior race". But still, they could have done something about it, perhaps they would have feared public backlash in their home states? Who knows. It's tragic that it's taken so long for whites to understand how much nonsense that is, that white domination was due to culture, geography and the Darwinist ecology of the human race on a global scale. Absolutely nothing to due with divinity or biology.

I think it was a good move to remove Jackson from the $20 note, which I could only imagine is due to his policies against Native Americans. They should remove Grant too, quite frankly, like Lee, a good general, yes, but he ended up becoming a horrifically corrupt president that worked to unfairly punish Southerners. Not exactly something to venerate. Someone here mentioned it earlier, look what that turned into, a battle cry. Kind of like Britain and France after the First World War to Germany. I think we all know what that turned into...

The take down of confederate statues is not a means for a battle cry. It's a step in the right direction. There is nothing violent about it. No shots were fired.