Author Topic: Just a suggestion to those who comment on ART  (Read 2307 times)

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Offline Cesarin

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« on: July 19, 2005, 12:17:52 am »
Im quite shocked by the ammount of replies of most artwork gets here not matter the quality.
to be honest, its kind of disturbing...
We're all grown ups, we're not kids..
the fact that I find this disturbing is..
I see a lot of "how good it is", or called "EGO BOOSTER" like replies on all art.
its not targeted to anyone, but its disturbing.. why?
well because most artists WILL NOT GET BETTER with these kind of comments.
ENCOURAGEMENT, AND CONSTRUCTIVE crritisism is way more important.
most people who post art here are not kids anymore, they already have a well balanced self-stem.

I hope I dont look too rude to comment this, but I swear its a thing may need some changes.
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Offline Dragonfox

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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2005, 12:35:29 am »
I have noticed this, too.  

I wouldn't mind getting some sort of critique/constructive criticism on my work.  Some members here write some pretty nice comments, though.

It's not like it's going to bug me that much.  I'm used to college-level art critiques where sometimes the professor will order us to really tear up (not literally!'<img'> a piece of art if they think that the critique's not going anywhere.  That, and sometimes the professors themselves can be downright nasty if they think that you can handle/need it.


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Offline Ulario

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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2005, 12:42:16 am »
Personally, I do find it a bit rude.   There are a few things that need to be considered.

1.  Not all artists on this website are "professionals".  Many do it as a means of self expression.
2.  Not all artists like being critiqued.  I for one, am one of them.
3.  Most of us are adults, but there are a few younguns here as well.  Those munchkins are still trying to find their "voice" in art.

Personally, I won't critique a piece unlkess they ask for it, since it's hard to tell who wants it and who dosen't otherwise.  Some artists can become crabby if they recieve a critique if they don't want it, and others take it to great offense.  I have actually been chewed out in the past for pointing out a few things that a particular person could have worked on.  When I do critique, I will point out the good as well as the bad.  Having been an art student in college for five years, I have learned to critique without hurting one's feelings.

Others don't critique because they don't want to hurt the other person's feelings.  But what I hate is when people tell me that they think the picture is good or bad and leave it at that.  Personally, I'd like to know why someone thinks it's good (or bad) so I know what to do next time.

You may be wondering why I hate critiques.  And as a college student, you'd think I'd be used to them.  Well, the fact of the matter is that I've suffered from a major inferiority complex my entire life, and I can easily interprit them the wrong way and see it as a threat to myself.  It dosen't affect me in college since my art profs know me pretty well and know how to say things in a matter that avoid such feelings.

Edit:  Egh.  Apologies if I seem cranky, I have a pounding headache.




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Offline CarLOS

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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2005, 12:57:39 am »
My art is my therapy. I don't give a rat's butt who likes it or not.

Some pices I share because they are fun. If it brightens someone's day, great! '<img'>

But since some furs here are wanting critique, I shall state the converse... DO NOT critique this penguin in any form '<img'>

Offline Nocte

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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2005, 03:45:12 am »
I also think that, with the mixed group of artists that do or do not want critiques, a lot of people play it safe.

A possible solution would be to either put something like "crits encouraged" with every piece you post. It should be made clear to everyone that this is the only way to get critiques.
Another one is to open an Art Bootcamp forum, where all your sketches and finished works are guaranteed to be redlined and ripped to shreds. In a nice way. '<img'>
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Offline CarLOS

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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2005, 04:21:54 am »
That's a good idea! '<img'>

Offline whitedingo

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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2005, 05:01:50 am »
l'm with Ulario on this one most of the furs who post here are just art hacks myself included thay draw for fun l will not critic someones art unless thay ask lf l want to know whats wrong with my stuff l will ask.Most of the critic l have got from other sites has been just plan rude if l want prof critic l go to vcl and submit there .You have to remember art is for fun why does it need to be torn appart all the time just enjoy it for what it is.  ps l almost stopped drawing because of harsh comments
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2005, 08:11:50 am »
........So its bad to say "tops job!" and simple things like that?

Offline Ulario

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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2005, 11:14:50 am »
The following is taken from THeForce.net forums, but I believe it applies for all sites where people post their art.

Quote
Critique Guidelines:

Critique Guidelines:
(Guidelines compiled together by Errant_Venture)

Constructive Criticism? Critique? What do they mean here?

Facilitating and promoting improvement and developement through a positive approach.

Encouragement not diminishment.


There is an art to constructive criticism. Not all persons with professional experience, or advice, have learned the proper way to communicate effectively with their peers, or others, in critical construction (not to say that artists don't have valuable information to pass on to others.) But, criticism given ineffectively through poor tactics is a hindrance to progress.

There are ways to dole out helpful information without dumping a bucket of sand on that spark of talent and passion. Knowing critical (critique) basics will help motivate and develop artists into confident creators willing to share their insights and artwork with their colleagues and budding artists in the future.

This set of guidelines has been created to help those giving or receiving criticism to work together towards solving fundamental issues with their works.



The guidelines:

Do's and Don't's of the critical evaluation:

Do...empathize with the artist whom you offer constructive assistance. It's a big step to open art and soul up for critique.

Don't...tell an artist they have a bad idea.

Do...keep in mind that those sharing their criticisms may have ideas and solutions that you haven't thought of. You asked for their help and they are giving it.

Do...tell an artist what they're doing right, placing criticisms between positive statements, focus on the solution not the weakness. Focusing only on weakenesses is counter productive.

Don't...intimidate; one-up or deliver judgement. This is destructive.

Do...make sure that the criticism being given is constructive to the situation. State the issue and let the artist fix it (if they choose to do so)

Do...ask the artist their thoughts and what they feel about your critique, adapt an attitude of a team member trying to help a colleague (regardless of their skill level). If you have your own artwork, then offer yours up for critique. This can only help stimulate artistic dialogue and expedite the learning process.

Don't...attack an artists traits/character, or degrade or demean their *works. It's unprofessional, distasteful and unwelcomed.

*Not everyone is trying for the professional art gig. Many people are creating simply because they love to express themselves in an artistic way and more than likely want to improve their abilities. It's best to leave the "big, bad world" stuff to teachers, mentors, jurors, and potential employers.

Don't...be in love with your solution. It is only one possibility, only one point of view. That goes for artists and critics alike.

Do...allow the artist being criticised to make their own decisions regarding your assistance. Prepare for the artists feedback...it may not always be positive, but they may be trying to work it out. Most people hunger for help and are grateful when it's presented positively allowing them to work the problem out for themselves.

Do...THANK those that have offered their assistance/advice and those that have braved posting their artwork.

Do...have fun and enjoy yourselves!


Feel the need to advise people intending to make their living with art? Create a thread dealing with the possible encounters and the issues that face every art student and professional artist. The good, the bad and the ugly.




Hmm.... I wonder if I should write up something similar for Furtopia.
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Offline lordstacker

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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2005, 02:01:03 pm »
':cool:' well i certainly would love feedback, and i see Nocte is right. i should ask for it when posting, wonder why i didnt think of that one.

but as for me, i dont give my true opinon, unless the artist is at a certain skill level, or really its useless to them. and if i do give my opinon, im certain im right in doing so. weither they want to hear it or not, im only tring to give helpfull advice.
and if you are good enough, you should want to be better.
we all have room for improvement.
also i agree with Ulario, stating a reason for why you like things, as a genral rule would work just as well.
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Offline Cesarin

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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2005, 03:07:30 pm »
Quote (Nocte @ July 19 2005, 2:45 am)
I also think that, with the mixed group of artists that do or do not want critiques, a lot of people play it safe.

A possible solution would be to either put something like "crits encouraged" with every piece you post. It should be made clear to everyone that this is the only way to get critiques.
Another one is to open an Art Bootcamp forum, where all your sketches and finished works are guaranteed to be redlined and ripped to shreds. In a nice way. '<img'>

I always do the "comments welcome"
I think i should change that for "criticism welcome" :P
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Offline Old Rabbit

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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2005, 04:30:31 pm »
I also think critiques should be made
only when requested. I like the idea for a special
critique forum too.

For those who use creative works for enjoyment
along with those who post commissions.
I think a kind word has some value. After all to post
a bit of work, and not get any comments at all would
be most discouraging.

I think some do go overboard when they
give lots of praise for something that really isn't
done very well.
Of course with furries, and cartoon
characters there is much artistic license to draw many
ways. Allowing for lots of different styles and such.

So I usually try to find something I like about it.
Perhaps it's colored well. Or has good detail. good
perspective, proportion. Interesting pose ect.

I have been guilty of making glowing remarks when
they likely weren't deserved, but I am trying to restrain
myself.

I am always open to constructive critiques.
and nice comments too. ':blush:'

my thoughts.

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Offline Mazz

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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2005, 04:41:41 pm »
i say if someone wants cretique they should ask for it.

I've been freaked out on for critiqing someone so i just don't anymore.
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Offline Ulario

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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2005, 08:41:13 pm »
OldRabbit:

I like your idea for a critiquing post/forum.  I'll have to bring it up sometime.
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Offline Rye

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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2005, 09:18:12 pm »
I agree with you, Cesarin.  So much so, that I use this forum strictly for  the ego boost.  hehe.
Me and my friend toast tried to make a more objective board, but since all the posters know eachother I think some are afarid to hurt feelings.
It's also kind of slow now, just me and like 4 others do most of the posting.  

I LIVE the the crits.  I see artists who find crits rude, and their rate of improvment is much lower.  However, I also feel uncomfortable criting art here as I know most people just dont want to hear it.  If they did, I  just figure they'd take their art somewhere else.

Polykarbon is where I got my love of crits, man, they are brutal there and nothing has helped me more.  It's more anime than furry though.

The board my friend toast made is here
http://vfa.ipfox.info/forum/index.php
if anyone wants to join fine, but I make it a point to always post one good/needs improvment on the art posted there.  It's about honesty and improvment.  Furtopia is about showing off and getting a much needed ego boost.  
Also no pointless posts please.
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Offline Ulario

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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2005, 10:19:36 pm »
Quote
I see artists who find crits rude, and their rate of improvment is much lower.


Not necesarily.  I for one am not a fan of online critiques, yet each picture I draw is better then the last.  I can barely stand to look at pictures I've done a month or two ago.

The reason why is there are plenty of other ways to better oneself.  The biggest would probably be that I am a quick learner, and I find that I learn more effectively when I'm doing so on my own.  I have a stack of books that I use to study anatomy, by doing so I learn on my own.  

Not only that, but I have several friends who are either professional artists or are in college to become pro artists, and sometimes we get together to discuss our ideas and possible ways to improve ourselves.  I also try to show some of my work to my college profs for tips/crits, since I know for a fact they know what they are talking about.  

Learning is the reason why I'm in college in the first place.  I mean, you don't go to college to show off your skills, you go to learn how to improve.
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Offline Wendell

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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2005, 10:51:13 pm »
Check out my new signature line. I think it says enough about my feelings on the subject.
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Offline Sskessa

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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2005, 12:20:43 am »
I agree with you Cesarin a little, and disagree in other places. I'm glad this topic has been brought up, there have been things concerning art criticism that have bothered me too. First, the agreements:

Quote
I think some do go overboard when they
give lots of praise for something that really isn't
done very well.

Yeah...it sort of makes me feel kind of cheated, like "I worked for a week on my picture, and this person obviously didn't even spend a whole hour, and people are just going nuts over it!" But let me make this clear, it's the commenters who are the problem, not the artist. I don't want to discourage any artist from posting any picture, no matter how simple. But let's not be overflattering. I know, I do it sometimes too, it's hard because you see something that's a little squiggly, and you don't want the artist to feel bad, so you heap on the sugar and hope no one notices.

Also, I would enjoy more thorough comments, not even necessarily critiques, just...what do you like about the picture? How does it make you feel? That kind of stuff. But you gotta remember, Cesarin, critiques are hard to give. It's a delicate balance between helping and hurting someone. I think it's a good idea, like other people mentioned, to just say "critique encouraged" in your post.

And yeah, like Ulario mentioned, people go to college to learn to draw, not message boards. There's only so much you can get, I never expect mind-blowing critiques from the internet. And also remember the internet isn't just about showing off how good you are, but sharing your art, no matter how simple, with others. Just show them to make them happy.

Quote
Hmm.... I wonder if I should write up something similar for Furtopia.

I think you should. Help us give each other better comments.




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Offline Choky

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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2005, 07:27:07 am »
Well I DO want my art to be critiqued,it points out the errors that I didnt notice,so I can go over it and correct them.
 When I tell someone in the art forums well done or nice job or those things,I am not patronising them or anything like you say,what Im really saying is "well done(considering your skill level and limits)".And I can say that most artists that Ive given encouragement to have made better art as they progress through time,so I must be doing something right.And yes I only give critisism when asked,you can never tell who wants it and who doesnt.




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Offline Darkness Falls

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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2005, 07:32:20 pm »
*raises paw guiltily* Yeah, I do that all the time.

I guess I find it quite hard to take criticism of my own work, so I'm very reluctant to hand it out to others, even if they ask for it. The compromise I reach is to try to pick on the things I like about the picture and mention those rather than talk about the things I think are wrong with it. Although I have privately questioned before whether I come across as being unnecessarily positive and gushing just for the sake of it (and by extension, whether that makes my comments worth anything at all), so I'm glad that you raised this topic, Cesarin.

Personally, I can always see things that could be done better (in my opinion, of course), whether in other people's work or (especially) my own. However, both for the 'can dish it out but can't take it' reasons and for the reason of not wanting to come across as being mean-spirited, I tend to restrict myself to positive comments only. I'll watch this thread; I'm interested to see what people wil decide to do. After all, I'd like to make a positive contribution to the boards.

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Offline Cesarin

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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2005, 11:31:49 am »
I think the problem regarding certain things are the following


Encouraging and ego boosters : works to keep people continue drawing, but they will have to improve on their own by changing that and there, improving could be slow, but they will keep drawing, sometimes they wont improve at all.

medium criticism: best level

Hard criticism: can cause noob artists to flee, or even get depressed, but high end artists need these kind of comments to pulish their art.
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Offline Tabuu

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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2005, 05:20:38 am »
I'm really of the school that an artist only needs to improve when they aren't happy with their work or feel it lacks something. Not when everyone else does. It's their "voice", not yours.

Like Ulario and many others, I believe that criticism should only be given when asked. It's polite always to ask before putting cream or sugar in another person's coffee, regardless of how you like making yours. Why shouldn't a similar rule apply with art critique? :P Only thing is, it's too much work for every viewer to ask "do you want my opinion on this piece?" (atop the fact that it's both rude and condescending; giving the impression that something is "wrong" with the art). It should be up to the artist to make a note that they want criticism. I know I do when I feel I need it. Otherwise, I improve on my own. In the end, it all has to do with the artist's satisfaction, since every work will invariably attract its own audience anyway.

Also, I wouldn't call they type of commenting I do "sugar coating". Basically, I love art. Any art with any amount of expression is respected by me, and I enjoy each thing for what it is and what it represents. Just a point of view.

And when I comment, I comment straight off the top of my head. Whatever is said is whatever is in my mind at the time, and I have a suprisingly empty mind XD I'm sorry if just saying "cool" or "LOL" offends people '<img'>  I'm sure many would prefer those sorts of mindless comments over a solitary "Meh." because at least you can tell someone enjoys something about it :P

But in the end, everyone has what works best for them as an individual. They have to make this known for themselves, otherwise everyone ought to be polite.

And really, if you completely dislike a pic or don't have anything positive to say, why even comment? I'm glad at least in here there are no art trolls that I know of. This place only seems wishy washy because the audience the pictures are made for come to the picture, and those who dislike the pictures stay away.




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Offline Yip

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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2005, 01:42:57 pm »
In order to post a picture here, you have to have it hosted somewhere first. The forum itself does not host the picture. So therefore, by posting the picture in the forums, what you are adding is a place where it is easy for others to respond. And by doing so you are then essentially asking for them to respond and leave comments. And when someone does respond and comments on a piece, I see nothing wrong with mentioning things they like or dislike about it. So long as they are not rude about it.

If you don't want that kind of response, make a note of that when you post your art. Now, I do agree that full blown critiques should not be given unless specifically asked for. And of course, when commenting on a piece you must keep in mind what the artist was going for. (for example, if you don't like an artists style, telling them that will not help.)

So... essentially I think that unless the artist says otherwise, light/medium critiques are perfectly okay. But if the artist wants more or less than that, they should say so when they post the art.





Offline Tabuu

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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2005, 04:07:44 pm »
The thing about that is, though, when it comes to constructive criticism I don't see a "light" or "heavy" in it. To me, you either give the constructive criticism or you don't. Holding back valid points doesn't help them if they want help. So really, there is no gray area for me as far as I'm concerned. That, of course, is a matter of individual opinion.

And also, the point you make, Vararam, has its points but isn't necessarily completely valid in all cases. Sometimes people just want to share with others in the forum just for the joy of sharing or discussing an idea in a non-critical way. Not everyone's wanting or even expecting of critique just because it is a forum. It all depends on the context in which something is posted. And I think if you're really wanting critique you should let someone know rather than have them assume you do. They will be more hell over someone giving it when it's not wanted rather than not giving it when it is. Artist's obligation
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Offline Eternity_of_never

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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2005, 04:12:28 pm »
Ulario has a really good point. Most people dont like having thier artwork "critiqued". the opinion of a "critique" can range from "Well, I like it but I would"s to "Gahd**n, this suck @$$", which I've gotten before.
the best way to encourage people to improve and practice is to compliment the niceties about a certain picture, than offer helpful advice, IF you have it and IF it is  ACTUALLY HELPFUL. Those who just say "I dont like this or that" but never tell you WHY, aren't really helping at all, they're just being opinionated. While some people here are uber times better than me, I'm uber times better than some other people I know. the level of skill shouldnt matter between artists, but the IDEa is what's important.
dude, didn't anyone take that lesson in "art critiqueing" in high school art? :P
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