Author Topic: Christian views on abortion  (Read 3386 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr. Apple

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 573
    • FurAffinity
Christian views on abortion
« on: October 01, 2011, 07:08:39 pm »
I was watching one of those athiest activists on youtube when they brought up a good point.
They were talking about abortion and the opposing party was christian. If you've been living under a rock, Christians are adamantly opposed to abortion. But the pope says that even aborted babies go to heaven. SO! I ask; what's the big deal if the aborted fetuses have it better than we do? Have I slipped on a banana peel and landed on an inconsistency?
This has got me thinking. Please give me your thoughts.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange."

DA: http://x13killer.deviantart.com/
FA: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/x13killer/

Offline Acton

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Republican Black Bear
  • Unrepentant Furry, Otaku and Anglican.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 2369
    • Acton Hermitage
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 07:17:28 pm »
I was watching one of those athiest activists on youtube when they brought up a good point.
They were talking about abortion and the opposing party was christian. If you've been living under a rock, Christians are adamantly opposed to abortion. But the pope says that even aborted babies go to heaven. SO! I ask; what's the big deal if the aborted fetuses have it better than we do? Have I slipped on a banana peel and landed on an inconsistency?
This has got me thinking. Please give me your thoughts.

The ends doesn't justified the means. It just like saying a mass murder kills 25 men women and childdren in a Chuch and one say oh well, their going to heaven anyway. Both still area harroble act.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 12:25:07 pm by Acton »

Offline Mr. Apple

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 573
    • FurAffinity
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 07:42:27 pm »
I was watching one of those athiest activists on youtube when they brought up a good point.
They were talking about abortion and the opposing party was christian. If you've been living under a rock, Christians are adamantly opposed to abortion. But the pope says that even aborted babies go to heaven. SO! I ask; what's the big deal if the aborted fetuses have it better than we do? Have I slipped on a banana peel and landed on an inconsistency?
This has got me thinking. Please give me your thoughts.

The ends doesn't justified the means. It just like saying a mass murder kills 25 men women and childdren in a Chucho and one say oh well, their going to heaven anyway. Both still area harroble act.

That's a good point, but wouldn't an eternity of happiness sort of make up for being killed? We were pretty damn excited at the end of WWII when the bombs were dropped. Everyone was so happy that we won the war, and the fact that all those people were killed was shoved under the table.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange."

DA: http://x13killer.deviantart.com/
FA: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/x13killer/

Offline Alsek

  • The Fluffy Destroyer of Tasty Fish
  • Species: White Wolf Pup
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 07:53:44 pm »
That's a good point, but wouldn't an eternity of happiness sort of make up for being killed? We were pretty damn excited at the end of WWII when the bombs were dropped. Everyone was so happy that we won the war, and the fact that all those people were killed was shoved under the table.

Careful when you say,  "We."   There's a lot of people who are appalled by that past.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:10:27 pm by Alsek »

Offline Mr. Apple

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 573
    • FurAffinity
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 07:57:07 pm »
That's a good point, but wouldn't an eternity of happiness sort of make up for being killed? We were pretty damn excited at the end of WWII when the bombs were dropped. Everyone was so happy that we won the war, and the fact that all those people were killed was shoved under the table.

Careful when you say,  "We."   There's a lot of people who are appalled by that past.

hehe srry =^_^=
we = general consensus.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange."

DA: http://x13killer.deviantart.com/
FA: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/x13killer/

Offline Mylo

  • *
  • Posts: 4761
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 08:26:49 pm »
I've got to agree with Acton.  Just because a horrible act causes something wonderful doesn't mean it's right.  In the case of the atomic bombs, it was either that or sending in a million American troops to invade Japan, which would have resulted in much more casualties than the former.  It's pretty cliche, but it was either a rock or a hard place...

Offline Foxpup

  • Hero Member
  • Species: Cyborg Fox
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 1183
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 10:39:15 pm »
Regarding the whole "Abortion = Murder" thing that seems to be thrown around a lot:

Exodus 21:12 "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."
According to the Bible, murder warrants the death penalty.

Exodus 21:22 "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."
Abortion, on the other hand, does not warrant the death penalty, indicating that it is not as serious a crime as murder.

Clearly, then, the Christian view on abortion is that it is not murder. At least that's what the Bible says. But what the Bible says and what Christians think and do are two completely different things...
“Hmm... They have the Internet on computers now.” - Homer Simpson

“Art doesn't work without pain. Art exists for compensating pain.” - Till Lindemann

“There's a fine line between sayings that make sense.” - Too Much Coffee Man

Offline Drake Blackpaw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 3109
    • http://www.drakebp.furtopia.org/
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 11:07:02 pm »
First I would like to point out that it is incorrect to state all Christians are against abortion, there are Christians who are pro-choice.  There are also atheists who are strongly against abortion.

As to the point you raise, I'll counter with this: If your "saved" so you are going to "heaven", does that mean it is alright for me to kill you.  I mean hey, you'll be in a better place.  You could look at it as I'm doing you a favor.  

But that doesn't sit right, does it?  Taking someone's life is taking away their chance to fulfill any dreams they had, realize any potential they were born with, taking away there ability to experience what was about to come for them.    

The argument about allowing abortion and not allowing it usually comes down to when you believe what has been conceived can be called a human life.  For some it is at the moment of conception.  That is definitely the position of the Catholic church and some other Christian denominations.  For others, that moment comes when the fetus hits a certain stage; it has taken on a recognizable form, it has a beating heart, or it would have a chance to live outside of the womb at that stage.  The taking of a human life is considered wrong by most people, whether or not that human is going to "heaven".  If you believe the fetus is alive, then abortion is essentially doing the same thing as killing someone who has already been born.

You will find very few people except the most ardent pro-choice activists who support the idea of abortion at a stage where the fetus could possibly live outside of the womb for any cases except to save the life of the mother or rape.

No one likes abortion.  There are people who believe it is important for abortion to be an option for someone who has an unwanted pregnancy, but they don't like abortion.  Most people who are pro-choice will you that it isn't that abortion is good, it is that they believe it is the lesser of two evils in certain situations.  They would rather there wasn't an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.  Most of the work  Planned Parenthood does is focused on helping people not have unwanted pregnancies, not on providing abortions.

 

Offline Yip

  • Species: vulpes vulpes
  • *
  • Female
  • Posts: 4005
    • Furaffinity
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2011, 11:23:15 pm »
The ends doesn't justified the means. It just like saying a mass murder kills 25 men women and childdren in a Chucho and one say oh well, their going to heaven anyway. Both still area harroble act.
Actually, if there truly is a heaven and hell, forcing someone to live this life and chance going to hell could be considered the "horrible act".

As to the point you raise, I'll counter with this: If your "saved" so you are going to "heaven", does that mean it is alright for me to kill you.  I mean hey, you'll be in a better place.  You could look at it as I'm doing you a favor.
Yes as a matter of fact, as long as those left behind are not harmed by it. And really, if there actually were a heaven that we go to after death, then death, whatever it's cause, should be celebrated.

No one likes abortion.  There are people who believe it is important for abortion to be an option for someone who has an unwanted pregnancy, but they don't like abortion.  Most people who are pro-choice will you that it isn't that abortion is good, it is that they believe it is the lesser of two evils in certain situations.  They would rather there wasn't an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.  Most of the work  Planned Parenthood does is focused on helping people not have unwanted pregnancies, not on providing abortions.
Exactly. And yet many who claim to be against abortion actively sabotage things that would help reduce the number of pregnancies, such as proper sex education and birth control.

Offline Alexandre

  • Hero Member
  • Back to waggles
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 4242
    • Alexandre's Fur Affinity Account!
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 01:09:21 pm »
The ends doesn't justified the means. It just like saying a mass murder kills 25 men women and childdren in a Chucho and one say oh well, their going to heaven anyway. Both still area harroble act.
Actually, if there truly is a heaven and hell, forcing someone to live this life and chance going to hell could be considered the "horrible act".
I'm not Christian now, and I'm actually okay with some types of abortion, but let me put it into perspective, Vararam.

Many Christians fail to emphasize the idea that everything they learn will be taken to the afterlife.  Mormonism specifically claims that it's much easier to learn a lot of these things in our bodies than it is after death.  Removing a chance to learn these things, then, is harmful.

Also, Christians highly value the idea of choice.  Everyone should have the right to choose; killing an unborn fetus may be a parent's choice, but it eliminates any possibility of choice for that future child.  Of course, a lot of this depends on when their idea of a spirit enters that child.  If it does right at conception, even the morning-after pill could be extremely sinful to them.  Their understanding of the spirit in regards to an unborn child, though, is very vague; because of this, a blanket ban on abortion is understandable to some degree.
Allasso, Volume 2: Saudade is now out!  Feel free to check it out ^_^

Offline Yip

  • Species: vulpes vulpes
  • *
  • Female
  • Posts: 4005
    • Furaffinity
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 02:37:52 pm »
Also, Christians highly value the idea of choice.
I'm sorry but that's absolutely false. Christian doctrine is about conformity, not giving people the right to make choices. That is why they have throughout history tried to force others to believe as they do. You are not suppose to question. Just have faith. That's not making a choice. And they indoctrinate kids while they are too young to make an informed choice, so they are doing their best to remove that choice as well.

Also, consider the fact that one of the arguments Christians commonly use against homosexuality is claiming it's a choice. Why? Because 1) it's an attempt to take the blame off God, and 2) it helps them justify the cruel ways the try to force people not to be homosexual.  Don't try to tell me Christianity has anything to do with promoting choice.

They also usually support abstinence only education. Why? Because if you teach kids how to have sex safely, they might choose to do so. Christianity is not about choice.

That's not to say that there are not Christians that recognize that we should have right to make choices in our lives. But that is NOT because of the doctrine, but rather it's due to secular advancements in society (which the religion generally fights every step of the way, I might add.)

The one way they might "support choice" is in that many of them believe that this live is a trial, where if you pass the trial you go to heaven, and if you fail it you go to hell. But how is that a choice? No one would choose to be tortured forever. No one. That's not a choice.

...killing an unborn fetus may be a parent's choice, but it eliminates any possibility of choice for that future child.
So you are saying they don't get choices in heaven? They are mindless automatons? That's all kinds of messed up. That's not paradise. That's not a better place.  In fact, if I went to heaven and became mindless, that ceases to be me. At that point, God might as well make the automaton directly and skip this life. It makes this life pointless, other than giving people a chance to get tortured forever instead. Seriously, that's all kinds of messed up.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 03:36:59 pm by Vararam »

Offline Sunny Snowflame

  • Full Member
  • Greetings, Earthlings! You will obey me!!
  • ***
  • Male
  • Posts: 100
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 04:28:18 am »
Allow me to jump into the fray here...

I am a Christian, but I am what some people refer to as a "Liberated" Christian. It's basically an ideology that examines the original Greek texts for meanings both literal, and figurative for the time in which they were written. People in this group often suggest that it is unwise to blindly read the English-translated texts without any understanding, as it only fuels flamewars and misunderstandings.

I am one who believes that homosexuality is not a choice, but a part of God's design intended to illustrate that more than just one form of love is possible. And to return to the topic at hand, I am one in the admittedly less-visible minority of Chrsitians who won't be standing outside Planned Parenthood with a picket sign. Abortion is regrettable, but banning it is only treating the symptom, not the problem.

More people are focusing on whether babies can either be aborted, or allowed to live in miserable circumstances (which some of us, myself included, actually think would be worse), when preventing pregnancies would make this a non-issue! There are a handful of churches that actually teach sex education (not of the "abstinence-only" variety) for this very reason. And while I avoid affiliating myself with any particular denomination or sect, I can cite the United Church of Christ as one such example. In fact, the UCC recently made an even bigger statement by appointing a lesbian as one of its main leaders.

So generally speaking, there are some Christians who are willing to question the validity of ancient dogma, in favor of looking to the original, spiritual aspects of the teachings as they pertain to love as the ultimate goal. I know it doesn't look like there are many of us, but we are in greater numbers than most people realize. We think God created people so they could be happy, not so they could be ruled by the Spanish Inquisition! (Which nobody expects, by the way. ;) ) You might say we're just a bunch of hippies with a message of love and acceptance for everyone.  :)

*Wanders off, singing "One love... One heart... Let's get together and feel all right....."  (:
Just what exactly is a nerf, and how does one herd them?...

Offline Alexandre

  • Hero Member
  • Back to waggles
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 4242
    • Alexandre's Fur Affinity Account!
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2011, 12:32:36 am »
Christianity is not about choice.
Lol. I'm not even Christian, and I recognize that it is about choice. If you look at the doctrine in the Bible (especially the New Testament since that's the major basis of Christianity) rather than what the masses are saying, you could see that, as well.  I've already seen you have this discussion, though, and I'm not really interested in continuing it.  Just know that blanket statements really annoy people and don't make you seem very credible. 

This is distracting from the main topic, though; if you want to reply, send me a PM.
Allasso, Volume 2: Saudade is now out!  Feel free to check it out ^_^

Offline Yip

  • Species: vulpes vulpes
  • *
  • Female
  • Posts: 4005
    • Furaffinity
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2011, 06:03:41 am »
Christianity is not about choice.
Lol. I'm not even Christian, and I recognize that it is about choice. If you look at the doctrine in the Bible (especially the New Testament since that's the major basis of Christianity) rather than what the masses are saying, you could see that, as well.  I've already seen you have this discussion, though, and I'm not really interested in continuing it.  Just know that blanket statements really annoy people and don't make you seem very credible. 

This is distracting from the main topic, though; if you want to reply, send me a PM.
So, you make a blanket statement, don't back it up, pluck out one sentence I used from it's context which was backing it up, and use it to claim that I'm making a blanket statement.  Seriously?

I used to be a Christian and I'm quite familiar with the doctrine. And as I said, while the doctrine pretends to give you a choice, it's not really a choice. No one would -choose- to go to hell.  And bringing it back to the main topic, if one believes that an unborn will go to heaven if it's aborted (something the Bible is completely silent about by the way), then removing this false "choice" is not at all harmful for them. And whats more, if abortion were somehow so harmful that we should avoid it at all costs (which is what many Christians seem to advocate despite it not being supported by the Bible), then what about all the fetuses that get aborted naturally? If God exists and finds it really so vital that each individual be given such a choice than miscarriages and such would not happen. Yet they happen all the time.

Offline Kobuk

  • The "Malamute Dewd"
  • Hero Member
  • Species: Anthro Alaskan Malamute (Husky)
  • #1 Dew drinker.
  • *****
  • Male
  • Posts: 27533
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2011, 06:31:46 am »
Christianity is not about choice.
Lol. I'm not even Christian, and I recognize that it is about choice. If you look at the doctrine in the Bible (especially the New Testament since that's the major basis of Christianity) rather than what the masses are saying, you could see that, as well.  I've already seen you have this discussion, though, and I'm not really interested in continuing it.  Just know that blanket statements really annoy people and don't make you seem very credible. 

This is distracting from the main topic, though; if you want to reply, send me a PM.

So, you make a blanket statement, don't back it up, pluck out one sentence I used from it's context which was backing it up, and use it to claim that I'm making a blanket statement.  Seriously?

I used to be a Christian and I'm quite familiar with the doctrine. And as I said, while the doctrine pretends to give you a choice, it's not really a choice. No one would -choose- to go to hell.  And bringing it back to the main topic, if one believes that an unborn will go to heaven if it's aborted (something the Bible is completely silent about by the way), then removing this false "choice" is not at all harmful for them. And whats more, if abortion were somehow so harmful that we should avoid it at all costs (which is what many Christians seem to advocate despite it not being supported by the Bible), then what about all the fetuses that get aborted naturally? If God exists and finds it really so vital that each individual be given such a choice than miscarriages and such would not happen. Yet they happen all the time.

Take a cue from the parts I highlighted in yellow, Vararam. ;)
Click link below for more fursuit information. ;)
http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Yip

  • Species: vulpes vulpes
  • *
  • Female
  • Posts: 4005
    • Furaffinity
Re: Christian views on abortion
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 12:10:28 pm »
Take a cue from the parts I highlighted in yellow, Vararam. ;)
Believe me I have, which is why I responded as I did. I sent you a PM about it.

----

I have made a thread here which I hope better explains how Christianity is not about choice. I made it a separate thread so as not to derail this one.

Spoiler: I am placing a copy of it here for the readers convenience. • show

What follows is my response to the claim "Christians highly value the idea of choice".  This statement could be looked at in three distinctive scopes. I find that it to be false in all three cases, so I addressed it as such. Unfortunately, I didn't make it clear that I was addressing the statement on different scopes, and this may have lessened the clarity of my earlier post.  For that reason, I have decided to address again in each of the three scopes: The people, the doctrine, and the institution.

Note: this is worded in a "here's how it is" kind of way because I find the issue rather straight forward. If you find something is in error, or if you just want to respond, you can do so either through PM or in the thread dedicated to it (assuming it exists) Sorry if it's a bit long.

---

THE PEOPLE
Looking at the statement in the scope of the individual people, it may be true that many Christians may regard the idea of choice as very valuable. However, they could also equally be against allowing choice, or they could be indifferent to it.  In fact, it's not at all uncommon to see Christians going decidedly against the idea of choice. Whether that be abortion, homosexuality (which they claim is a choice), sex eduction, or whatever. 

Point is, there is nothing inherent about being Christian that would make someone value choice any more than a non-Christian would. Therefore, to make a blanket statement claiming that “Christian people highly value the idea of choice” is false.

THE DOCTRINE
Generally the Bible speaks more about what one should not do rather than about the idea of choice. Since it's main focus seems to be on setting limits for the people, particularly in the Old Testament, one could say that it's against choice. However, I don't think that's correct. For the most part, the Bible does not directly address the idea of choice. So in that sense I would say it's indifferent to it.

However, there is one very important way in which it could be said to be about choice, and that the idea that you can “choose” to follow Jesus and be saved. However, when you realize that the doctrine is actually saying that God made a place of torture and is planning to send you to it, then his offer to let you off the hook if you'll worship him starts to look a bit less like a true choice, and more like a sadistic game. While it technically could count as a choice, it's a choice in the same sense as it's a choice to be forced at gunpoint to sign a document that gives someone all that you own. Only it's far more severe than that. (Thankfully, I find no good reason to believe that hell (or god) exists, so there there is no need to play this sadistic game.)

Of course, not all Christians believe in a literal hell. In fact, the canonical books of the bible never speak of hell in detail, so ideas of what hell is or if it even exists can vary widely amongst believers. However, the problem I pointed out still exists. This is because a core part of the doctrine is in getting you to believe that you are inherently broken so that it can claim to be the cure. And in order to accept this "cure" you have to give up your natural self-worth and believe that you are worthless without the religion, and you have to devote your life to serving the religion, placing it as the central core of your being.  So the “choice” to accept this cure, with all the baggage that comes with it, is still a rather messed up idea of supporting choice.

For all these reasons, saying “Christian doctrine highly values the idea of choice” is also false, at least for any meaningful sense of the idea of choice.

THE INSTITUTION
History has shown us what happens when the Christian religion is in a position of power. It inevitably seeks to exert as much control as it can on those under it's reign. It is exactly this that has led to the crusades, the inquisition, and numerous other atrocities. Some might claim “but that's not my version of Christianity”, or possibly even “that's not true Christianity”. The second is a no-true-Scotsman fallacy and so I don't think I need to address it further. For the first however, I would point out that these Christians are using the same holy book, and have many of the same tenets derived from it, and most importantly, they are a big part of what makes up the institution of Christianity. Plus, even big Christian organizations today can often be shown to be doing whatever they can to exert control, though it's limited by the fact that they must work from within a society in which it does not control the law (though it does it's best to work it's way into there as well.) The point is, the statement “the religious institution of Christianity highly values the idea of choice” is most definitely false.

---

As I've shown, for each of these areas, The People, The Doctrine, and The Institution, making a blanket statement “Christians highly value the idea of choice” is false. It's for this reason that I state that it's absolutely false so strongly: because it's false no matter the scope.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 12:57:36 am by Vararam »