Author Topic: Guns  (Read 12992 times)

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Offline Alsek

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Re: Guns
« Reply #100 on: May 27, 2011, 03:55:11 am »
The response to your argument comes later in the post,  right about here:

The fact that you're afraid of they doesn't change the fact that my grandmother has the right and the ability to defend herself.  No one's forcing you to own a handgun but~

Lots of people have rights that they don't use.  The fact that you are afraid to use yours shouldn't inhibit others from doing so.  You might even be capable of running.  That doesn't make it an option for everyone.

On that note,  i would like to point out that whether or not you own a handgun,  the simple fact that other people do can still prevent you from getting harmed due to the effect it has on society.

For example,  Vermont,  which allows it's citizens to own and conceal firearms without a license,  permit,  without paying a fee,  or going through a mandatory waiting period,  constantly ranks as one of the top five safest states in the country. [1]

57% of criminals polled by the department of justice said that they were more worried about running into an armed,  "victim," than they were the police. [2]
74% felons polled said that one of the reasons criminals avoided homes with people in them was that they were afraid of being shot during the crime. [2]
60% Said that they would not attack a victim if they knew the victim had a gun. [2]

I don't mean to come off as rude or arrogant but there are some serious facts and statistical evidence to be considered as well.  What happens to an individual and even the unmeasurable amount of protection an individual gains simply from the change in culture has a huge impact on this argument.  Crime isn't going to go away in a world where citizens have any reasonable amounts of personal freedom.  As ugly as the concept of any human being forced to inflict serious harm on another can be, It's still a lot better than the alternative.  Fortunately,  most gun owners seem to keep a reasonable grasp on reality and try to keep everyone involved,  including the would be assailant out of the hospital and out of the morg.

The mass majority of firearm owning homeowners only show their firearms in order to scare away the felon,  while 8% are forced to wound them. [3]

I hope as long as i live i will never have to defend myself.  But if i do i would rather be negotiating from a position of strength.  If you really think it's possible to change the hearts and minds of people and someday reach a utopian world where guns are never used,  i think you'll see the lack of firearm ownership occurring as a side effect rather than a cause.  I hope we get there someday.  ^^

As a side note,  i will be out of town until sunday.  I may pop my head in tomorrow but don't intend to debate.

1. Morgan Quinto Press

2. U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report

3. Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 03:57:41 am by Alsek »

Offline Yip

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Re: Guns
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2011, 06:04:55 am »
First, whether I personally am "afraid" to use a gun or not is irrelevant. Why is that so hard to understand? As I've already said, I'm not talking about me. Further, your use of the word "afraid" is rather insulting. Fear is not the only reason someone can choose to not use a gun. Is everything you choose not to do because you are afraid to do it? I doubt it, so don't imply that of other people.

Second, despite the fact that I specifically said otherwise, you still seem to act like I'm arguing that guns should be banned or some such. Which is totally not the case. In fact, I'm actually largely undecided on the issue, which is why I didn't respond in this thread for a long time. (actually, I'm against outright banning guns. I'm undecided on restrictions.)

What I've been doing here is simply trying to keep people from making fallacious arguments, in this case primarily over-simplifications. That's it. And that's why I find it it very irritating that people seem to be continuing to make the exact same fallacious arguments immediately after I just debunked them.

At least your latest post looks like it has some interesting information in it.