Author Topic: Independent Scotland  (Read 2065 times)

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Offline Natura Wolf

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Independent Scotland
« on: March 28, 2013, 05:20:33 am »
Hello there,

In 2013-2014 there is going to be a vote on whether to make Scotland Independent from the UK.  For anyone who doesn't know, the UK (the main part,there are other counties such as the Falkline Islands near Argentina) is unity of four different countries:  Whales, England, Scotland & Northern Ireland.

Each Country has it's own political power/democracy.  The over ruling power or the major power is within England.

The argument is that Scotland can afford to be Independent and would be financially beneficial to Scotland.  They are even lowing the vote to 16 to allow the younger or 'future' generation their chance to vote.

Here are some links:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9957889/Iain-Duncan-Smith-Independent-Scotland-may-have-to-increase-taxes-to-fund-state-pension.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/28/opinion/a-vote-on-scottish-independence.html?_r=0
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21914039

Personally due to the historically poor relationship between Scotland and England I don't think it should happen.  There is a high discriminative form in parts of Scotland that do not like English people.  I can understand that people see this for a financial benefit but I can only see this as a social disaster.

What do you think?

Offline Alsek

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Re: Independent Scotland
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2013, 04:46:29 pm »
I don't think the historically poor relationship should mean they aren't allowed to seperate...  If anything,   that's all the more reason.  If the same tactics were employed by the british today they used to conquer Ireland and Scotland in the first place, the UN would almost certianly put an imediate stop to it.  It bothers me slightly that people take the attitude they do towards the nationalists in each country.   Especially the irish with it having been so recently.  I agree that nothing can justify the terrorist actions against civilians from groups like the IRA.  But, The citizens of both countries have every right to be unhappy about their nationality and culture having been stripped away from them under military ocupation.  Even their language was nearly destroyed.  They aren't even allowed to own their own historical relecs.  It took a college student stealing the stone of Scone from england and taking it back to scotland for england to LOAN their own relec back to them.

If they want the hostile attitude to end they should try to repair the damage that was done and stop pretending like it never happened.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:48:54 pm by Alsek »

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Independent Scotland
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2013, 06:53:02 pm »
I understand what you are saying.  But you also have to understand that it was the past and of previous ancestors.  It was not us.  It would be like still blaming Germany for WW2.  It was the past.  Nothing will ever rectify it truly.

My worry is the extreme extents (and we do have extreme political parties) of to the point, thinking about pushing away citizens from England.  I also wish to stress very few Scottish people are Scottish.  I am not even English i was just born there.  My family is parts of Jewish, Flemmish, Austrian, Whelsh, etc.  I actually like the idea that I come from such a multi-cultural background.  The point i'm making here is I don't really have a relic or ancestry.  It doesn't exist with us

I've also found that few Scottish people follow their own traditions.  It's one thing talking about the history and ancestry of ones life.  But Scotland is very rich in history, but is never truly followed.

I will however say that Ireland is a different situation to Scotland. 

Another fear is something that stands today.  The arguments between two football teams.  Celtic and Rangers.  There have been both passive and violent arguments between the two teams.  A friend of mine actually informed me it extends back into religion.  I can't remember the extent of it.  But this form of violence still stands today.

Metaphorically speaking, would you give a sword to a cereal killer just because he owned the blade?

Offline Alsek

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Re: Independent Scotland
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2013, 07:28:42 pm »
The work of Germany in WWII was undone as much as was possible.   Land was restored to it's respective owners.   Country's governments were restored.  Action was taken against germany to prevent such things from ever happening again.   It was also acknoleged by the world as an atrocity.  The German people look back on that time with shame and reference it as a terrible, dark time in their past.

Not so much as an apology has been made in the case of the celtic cultures.   A good start would be allowing their independance when they ask for it.  That's the very /least/ that could be done.  And, you're right.  Nothing will ever fix the damage.

Scotland is quite similar to ireland.   The major difference is time.  It wasn't nearly as recent but it was a LOT more bloody by comparison.  Scotland has rebuilt while places like northern Ireland are still very affected.   The reason for the religious involvement in Ireland is because the protestant church is associated with the, church of England (i.e. the invading military force.)   Had the invasion never happened,   the prejudice wouldn't exist.   Remove the invasion and there's nothing to fuel that prejudice.  As i'm sure you're aware, It has little to do with actual religious beliefs...   It's just another way of identifying, "sides."


I believe that because Scotland has had a lot more time they're a lot more likely to be capible of standing on their own,   and to not letting the past drive them to make brash, short-sighted choices.  Maybe these are just the ranblings of an American who doesn't understand these situations as much as is needed to have an opinion,   but i will applaud if Scotland gains independance through peaceful means.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 07:32:36 pm by Alsek »

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Independent Scotland
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2013, 07:41:48 pm »
But why Identify someone as different when they are not?
My argument is that categorisation has lead to greater prejudice via pride of ones country.  Example, I have lived most to all my life in Scotland.  Yet I will never be recognised as Scottish, nor am I English.  So I have no form of relic or ancestry and by your argument you put me a position of a foreigner because I have no such history...but I'm not.  The land belongs to no one and in actual fact the land was raided by Ireland and Scandinavia as well as England.  Hence the similarities of Gaelic and Garlic I refer to my self as British when ever I can.  I disbelieve that anyone can say they have a full thread of blood lines from one place.

There is also the intention of why the people want Independence as well as the Governments reasoning.

Offline Alsek

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Re: Independent Scotland
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2013, 11:20:10 pm »
My argument is that categorisation has lead to greater prejudice via pride of ones country.  Example, I have lived most to all my life in Scotland.  Yet I will never be recognised as Scottish, nor am I English.  So I have no form of relic or ancestry and by your argument you put me a position of a foreigner because I have no such history...but I'm not.  The land belongs to no one and in actual fact the land was raided by Ireland and Scandinavia as well as England.  Hence the similarities of Gaelic and Garlic I refer to my self as British when ever I can.  I disbelieve that anyone can say they have a full thread of blood lines from one place.

There is also the intention of why the people want Independence as well as the Governments reasoning.

Welcome to the world of an American.  :P  I don't have one specific bloodline back either.  Though i have traced back to King James the V of Scotland through the person in my distant past who was deported to america from Scotland for supporting the Jacobite revolution... O.o  (irrelevant)  But as a complete mix when it comes to bloodlines,  i can tell you that people do not overcome prejudice through ignorance and forgetting the past.  Differences should be embraced and welcomed.  People and cultures are not the same.  That should be okay.

My best friend is 100% Scot to the core.  Grew up going to ceilidhs and tells stories of local Scots singing the flower of Scotland in Gaelic at the top of their lungs to essentially filibuster and prevent legal proceedings that worked against Scottish nationalism were taking place. The very fact that Scotland is STILL after all this time pushing to separate shows that they are in fact different in many ways,  even if not everyone agrees.  As far as i'm concerned England has no right to stop them, especially when they would be better off financially.  Part of the culture can still be restored.  Both languages could be taught in schools.  The schools could actually teach Celtic history which isn't something most people currently grow up learning (which is truly very sad.)

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Independent Scotland
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 03:44:16 am »
I'm sorry to tell you this but the culture wasn't taken because of England.  As said I grew up in Scotland (the Orkney Islands).  I remember we were having a discussion in Secondry School about the Orcadian language and how it is fading.  I remember saying why people did not teach it to others.

The response I got was that they did not want to teach it to new people.  Orkney is population of 20,000+ and it's and Island.  It is and island rich with history but unless your a farmer there is nothing there for young people, so they move away and others move to Orkney, and that is why they lost their language, not through oppression but through their own ignorance and changes in society.

One thing that Scotland is losing (and again it's not oppression it's social changes) is their ceilidh dances as well.  It's rare to see it these days.  I've walked around Scotland and the thing I find that society has dwelled around is drink.

You speak of differences but in exception of accent there are none.  Whether you want to believe it or not the only thing you can distinguish between a Scotsman and an Englishman is accent.

I also disagree, not everyone does want independance.  One thing i've noticed is there are no statistics.  The last time they had statistics, it was against Independance.  Now they just say people want it.  I don't recall though being asked nor a survey being sent. 

In regards to their financial benefit it's actually because of American (I think) organisations that are running the oil and gass materials of the coasts such as Aberdeen.

Then there is the subject of transport.  Prices will raise when travelling to England by other forms of transport.  Plus what if we start needing passports just to cross land.

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Independent Scotland
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 03:50:38 am »
If I can put this in different context.  If isolation is required because two factors do not get on.  Does this mean that we seperate Straights from gays because there are places that still abuse and main, seperate religious people because of their views.  We did this already and it was wrong.  Black people and white people being seperated by the colour of their skin.  Nationalism is no different.
Example - http://forums.furtopia.org/index.php?topic=45876.0;topicseen

Scotland is a beautiful place and has so much going for it, I am in 100% belief of that and I aim to make changes especially in it's Arts.

I can just see this Independancy being used against people and racism increasing.  That is my fear and there are people in Scotland filled with people against England, Orkney was no exception.

In regards to my previous post about the orginations not being Scottish.  Business do not follow the Scottish calendar anyway nor celebrate it's local holiday or festivals :(.  I do fear it
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 04:27:28 am by Natura Wolf »