Author Topic: Is there life after death?  (Read 13494 times)

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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2009, 05:33:29 pm »
So we each have our own reality after death? What evidence is there of this? If that's true why do we share one reality now? Or do you not believe that we share one reality?

Everyone wins may sound nice, but that doesn't mean it's true.  Plus your system still isn't everyone wins because it still unfairly punishes those that don't believe in any afterlife. For example, I believe that when you die that's it. Sorry, but all the evidence points to us being a product of the functioning of our brains. When the brain stops working, that person's individual personality will cease to exist.  According to what you said, since I believe this, it's true for me. How is this win? Do you think I WANT to cease to exist? No! But like it or not that's what the evidence points to. So I should be punished for going with the evidence?

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2009, 10:25:09 am »
So we each have our own reality after death? What evidence is there of this?
Yes, and what evidence is there of any afterlife?

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If that's true why do we share one reality now? Or do you not believe that we share one reality?
There is a specific name for believing you are the only entity in existence, and everything is a byproduct of your imagination, but I can't seem to recall it. Honestly, I am lead to think there is only one reality, but there really is no way of knowing.

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Everyone wins may sound nice, but that doesn't mean it's true.  Plus your system still isn't everyone wins because it still unfairly punishes those that don't believe in any afterlife. For example, I believe that when you die that's it.
How do you think you are being punished? You get what you believe. Even in the end, there would be no way of knowing which religious belief was correct. I don't see how believing everyone gets their own ending makes it any different from what anyone currently believes. You plan for nothing, you get nothing. You plan for reincarnation, you get reincarnation. No surprises, no catches. This seems the most fair out of any belief of an afterlife.

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Sorry, but all the evidence points to us being a product of the functioning of our brains. When the brain stops working, that person's individual personality will cease to exist.  According to what you said, since I believe this, it's true for me. How is this win? Do you think I WANT to cease to exist? No! But like it or not that's what the evidence points to. So I should be punished for going with the evidence?
Being a conscious entity, I cannot imagine not existing. Try as hard as you can to think of not being, and I doubt you can. Because I cannot imagine it, I refuse to believe it. Although, even if I was pushed from existence, would I even care? Could I even care? No, because I wouldn't exist. No scientific evidence can explain why you specifically are living, just as no scientific evidence can prove or disprove the fate of your consciousness.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2009, 11:46:34 am »
Dude, it is punishment because you're saying I don't get an eternal afterlife whether I'd want it or not simply because I'm not willing to delude myself into believing in it without evidence.  If you can't see that as punishment, surely you can see how your system rewards those with grand selfish delusions of what the afterlife will be.  What is a delusion except a strongly held false belief. Under your system, that's all it'd take.  I'm sorry, but I can't see how you could possibly think that's fair.

And if you are willing to except that things are not fair, then there is no reason for your system that is completely unsupported by evidence.

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2009, 05:54:43 pm »
I do side with Vararam on individual afterlives. I actually find the idea behind the argument for them to be ironic. Based on everything we know, things either are or are not. I.E. I'm either here or I'm not. I'm not here to one person and non-existant to someone else standing next to me. Logic dictates that since we don't have any way to even really guess about the afterlife, then we should consider it the same as we look into other things that could indicate what, if anything, awaits us. I will agree to a possibility of an individual afterlifes in the sense that if you get to heaven you can choose what that heaven will be for you. For some, they may choose to reside in a huge mansion with an olympic sized swimming pool. Others may prefer to reside in a forrested setting and a log cabin. But these would not be different realities (assuming this is the case). It would be one "heaven", just designed seperately for each individual. If you play Second Life a lot, then this concept should already be somewhat familiar, as each resident can own land and make his own ideal "second home".
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2009, 09:30:50 pm »
I will agree to a possibility of an individual afterlifes in the sense that if you get to heaven you can choose what that heaven will be for you. For some, they may choose to reside in a huge mansion with an olympic sized swimming pool. Others may prefer to reside in a forrested setting and a log cabin. But these would not be different realities (assuming this is the case). It would be one "heaven", just designed seperately for each individual. If you play Second Life a lot, then this concept should already be somewhat familiar, as each resident can own land and make his own ideal "second home".
This sounds far more plausible. Like maybe life is like a video game, and when you die, game over and you start a new game. Maybe this one again, maybe another.  Things like this I can accept as possibilities. Unlikely, but at least possible.

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2009, 05:28:16 pm »
Dude, it is punishment because you're saying I don't get an eternal afterlife whether I'd want it or not simply because I'm not willing to delude myself into believing in it without evidence.  If you can't see that as punishment, surely you can see how your system rewards those with grand selfish delusions of what the afterlife will be.  What is a delusion except a strongly held false belief. Under your system, that's all it'd take.  I'm sorry, but I can't see how you could possibly think that's fair.

And if you are willing to except that things are not fair, then there is no reason for your system that is completely unsupported by evidence.

If you are not willing to believe in something, how will you be disappointed if you don't get it? And once again, there is nothing proving or disproving anything about an afterlife. According to Christian religion, you won't even get an afterlife if you don't follow them, so compared to that my views seem quite fair.

This thread (I assume) was meant for personal opinions. It's not like I can pull out an article to show you who is right and who isn't.
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Offline Savaaha

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2009, 12:03:04 am »
An interesting article;
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Technology/Story?id=894217&page=1

personally as stated before I think I will be reborn once I die.

Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2009, 06:53:09 am »
If you are not willing to believe in something, how will you be disappointed if you don't get it?
So you're saying because I don't know that I'm missing out, that makes it fair?  Honestly, that's not even the worst part about this system. The worst part is that it rewards delusion.  Under the system you describe, never mind trying to find what's really true, instead just believe the most crazy selfish things you can think of no matter how unfounded, because in the end it'll be true for you.

I have to ask: Why should a person get the afterlife they believe in? What is the basis for this belief? If it is simply that you think it should be fair, then why? Why does it need to be fair?

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2009, 08:06:11 am »
I have to ask: Why should a person get the afterlife they believe in? What is the basis for this belief? If it is simply that you think it should be fair, then why? Why does it need to be fair?

A person should get the afterlife they believe in because if there is only one afterlife, billions of people would be left disappointed. I cannot simply believe that any loving god or goddess would leave so many people out in the cold, therefore I adopted a system where everyone gets exactly what they expect.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2009, 02:56:52 pm »
A person should get the afterlife they believe in because if there is only one afterlife, billions of people would be left disappointed. I cannot simply believe that any loving god or goddess would leave so many people out in the cold, therefore I adopted a system where everyone gets exactly what they expect.
So then why not get rid of the afterlife all together. No afterlife, you can't be disappointed right?

Also, you still haven't addressed the problem of those with grand selfish delusions. Do you really think if there is some loving god or goddess that he/she/it would want people to be delusional? Can you actually call wanting someone to be delusional "loving"?

[edited to correct spelling error]
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 03:34:19 pm by Vararam »

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2009, 05:05:00 pm »
I remember seeing a movie or something a long time ago that hinted that a soul in the afterlife is a knowing being about any/all past lives and why they are about to be born into the real world. But once born, the person getting the soul wouldn't know anything of the afterlife as if the soul's memory was erased until it leaves the body in death. If something like that were true, then there could be only one type of afterlife that our souls accept and like, even though in the land of the living we fantasize about it in different ways. Selfish delusions or just trying to be fair aside, in the end it may not matter and we could all be in for a shock. You can believe in what you want to believe in but since there's no proof, you have to at least leave some room in your belief that you could actually be wrong. And if you want to have your beliefs tolerated, you have to return the favor to others because they have just as much chance of being right or wrong as you.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2009, 08:25:15 pm »
... And if you want to have your beliefs tolerated, you have to return the favor to others because they have just as much chance of being right or wrong as you.
Sorry, but that statement it completely wrong.  Just because you don't know something doesn't mean all possibilities are equally likely.

However, I do agree that we should all acknowledge the possibility we could be wrong.

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2009, 10:07:28 am »
So then why not get rid of the afterlife all together. No afterlife, you can't be disappointed right?

Also, you still haven't addressed the problem of those with grand selfish delusions. Do you really think if there is some loving god or goddess that he/she/it would want people to be delusional? Can you actually call wanting someone to be delusional "loving"?

You can get rid of afterlife, but that is not what I believe. I already said that I have trouble accepting that my being will no longer exist, some time. If anything other than this, I'd follow reincarnation, but this debate has nothing to do with that.

I believe that we have the power to choose our own fates, from our time on Earth to whatever afterlife there is. Should your fate be considered a delusion, or your personal reality? It is difficult to break the concept that their is only one reality, because in this life, that is true. To fully understand what I believe, you need to accept there being more than one truth, instead of a collection of delusions. I use the term "dream" to describe this because it is the closest word there is.
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Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2009, 12:11:36 pm »
... And if you want to have your beliefs tolerated, you have to return the favor to others because they have just as much chance of being right or wrong as you.
Sorry, but that statement it completely wrong.  Just because you don't know something doesn't mean all possibilities are equally likely.

However, I do agree that we should all acknowledge the possibility we could be wrong.
That's not what I said....or at least not what I meant. It's like schrodinger's cat. You don't know if he's alive or dead unless you open the box. Since we have no way to tell if any afterlife exists or which it may be, then we can't say any one is 100% right. We also can't say any one is 100% wrong.

The last part of your statement was the point I was aiming for, though.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2009, 02:51:50 pm »
YI already said that I have trouble accepting that my being will no longer exist, some time. If anything other than this, I'd follow reincarnation, but this debate has nothing to do with that.
And what of our existence before this life? How do you explain that?

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To fully understand what I believe, you need to accept there being more than one truth, instead of a collection of delusions.
And how do you distinguish between a delusion and an alternate truth?


That's not what I said....or at least not what I meant. It's like schrodinger's cat. You don't know if he's alive or dead unless you open the box. Since we have no way to tell if any afterlife exists or which it may be, then we can't say any one is 100% right. We also can't say any one is 100% wrong.

The last part of your statement was the point I was aiming for, though.
It was the "just as much chance" part I was disagreeing with. That may not be what you meant, but you did say it.  And um...  I hate to sound like I'm nit-picking, but that's not what schrodinger's cat is about. Though unfortunately I can't really explain it here without going way off topic. So... look it up.

I agree that we can't say anyone is 100% right; but you really can't know anything with a 100% certainty. But as for not being able to say if someone is 100% wrong, I disagree. If someone's idea is based on a logical contradiction, then you can know it's completely wrong without knowing anything at all about what's actually correct. (note to Traumerei: that was not aimed at you.)

Further, the more assumptions one must make to establish their idea, the greater the likelihood that it is incorrect. So instead of making assumptions, one should be willing to accept that they don't know. This is something a lot of people seem to have a really hard time with, particularly when it comes to what happens after we die.

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2009, 07:47:56 pm »
And what of our existence before this life? How do you explain that?
I believe in the soul. New ones can be created to compensate for those which leave to whatever afterlife, and reincarnation is the process of souls periodically exchanging places in the universe. As an example, you could die this day and be reincarnated as a raven, or some creature on another planet.

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And how do you distinguish between a delusion and an alternate truth?
One is in your head, and the other is reality. Although, it is a reality only you will bear witness to.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2009, 08:38:26 pm »
I believe in the soul. New ones can be created to compensate for those which leave to whatever afterlife, and reincarnation is the process of souls periodically exchanging places in the universe. As an example, you could die this day and be reincarnated as a raven, or some creature on another planet.
New souls can be created? Was your soul created?

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And how do you distinguish between a delusion and an alternate truth?
One is in your head, and the other is reality. Although, it is a reality only you will bear witness to.
If we each have our own reality, and that reality is based on our individual beliefs, then there is no difference between reality and delusion. And you haven't answered the question.

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2009, 09:03:47 pm »
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Is there life after death?

I'd sure like to hope so.  ;) If there is no afterlife, then why were we created? What is our purpose?
But frankly, we'll never really know if there's an afterlife until we die. There is no scientific proof that says there is an afterlife. How do you even begin to try and prove the existence of an afterlife? Well, you could try to prove it by building a device that records a person's thoughts and experiences like in the movie "Brainstorm".  :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstorm_(1983_film)

Vararam: No offense, but you seem to be taking this entire topic way seriously? What exactly is it you're trying to ask or prove or get at?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 09:56:51 pm by Kobuk »
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Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2009, 09:34:18 am »
New souls can be created? Was your soul created?
Every soul was created, I believe. There was a time when this universe was completely void of life, and there are scientific theories behind that.

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If we each have our own reality, and that reality is based on our individual beliefs, then there is no difference between reality and delusion. And you haven't answered the question.
There is in fact a difference, but that can only be judged by others who are not involved, or yourself if said delusion ceases. From a mental point of view, there would be no distinguishable difference between a delusion and reality, if what you are seeing never ceases. Your life could be a delusion, for all you know.
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Offline McMajik

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2009, 01:22:02 pm »
You know, you sound like you're discussing what you want to happen more than what you actually think will happen.

Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2009, 09:54:16 pm »
Every soul was created, I believe. There was a time when this universe was completely void of life, and there are scientific theories behind that.
You accept that we at one time did not exist, thus non-existence is possible.  But yet you won't except that we might return to non-existence.  Perhaps because of some loving god or goddess (which there is no evidence for) that would not allow this.... except that this same "loving" god or goddess would be perfectly fine with allowing rational thinkers such as myself to cease to exist.  You say it's fare because I'd never know, but then the same could be said for letting everyone cease to exist after they die: they'll never know the difference.

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There is in fact a difference, but that can only be judged by others who are not involved, or yourself if said delusion ceases. From a mental point of view, there would be no distinguishable difference between a delusion and reality, if what you are seeing never ceases. Your life could be a delusion, for all you know.
A delusion is a belief (especially one strongly held) that does not match reality.  If the afterlife is entirely based on the individuals beliefs then that must also apply to delusions (as they are also beliefs).  If you are going to make exceptions, then your system becomes meaningless. Then what you are saying becomes: Those that believe something that's actually going to happen are correct. Those that are wrong, are wrong.

So, no offense Traumerei, but it's obvious that you haven't thought that idea through completely.


Vararam: No offense, but you seem to be taking this entire topic way seriously? What exactly is it you're trying to ask or prove or get at? You don't seem to be satisfied with anything that anybody is saying?
Too serious? Not at all. Just because I promote critically thinking about things doesn't mean I take it too serious. Critical thinking is FUN! I enjoy taking ideas to their logical conclusions. So when someone presents an idea that just doesn't add up, I'm gonna say something about it. And I'm also going to point out when someone says something that's plainly incorrect.  The idea is to promote critical thinking. It's a skill EVERYONE should have.

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2009, 10:56:52 am »
You accept that we at one time did not exist, thus non-existence is possible.  But yet you won't except that we might return to non-existence.  Perhaps because of some loving god or goddess (which there is no evidence for) that would not allow this.... except that this same "loving" god or goddess would be perfectly fine with allowing rational thinkers such as myself to cease to exist.  You say it's fare because I'd never know, but then the same could be said for letting everyone cease to exist after they die: they'll never know the difference.
I do not accept myself someday not existing because I find it impossible to imagine myself not being. Although, if that fate ever occurs I won't be able to have an opinion towards it, due to me not existing. The same would happen to you in my set of beliefs.

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A delusion is a belief (especially one strongly held) that does not match reality.  If the afterlife is entirely based on the individuals beliefs then that must also apply to delusions (as they are also beliefs).  If you are going to make exceptions, then your system becomes meaningless. Then what you are saying becomes: Those that believe something that's actually going to happen are correct. Those that are wrong, are wrong.

So, no offense Traumerei, but it's obvious that you haven't thought that idea through completely.
I believe that you are failing to wrap your mind around my idea. When did I ever say that your afterlife is a delusion? After death, I said you are given the afterlife of your choosing, however any other individuals involved in your specific afterlife could be thought of as empty casings, and not the souls of the individuals you perceive them to be. This would not be in your mind, therefore it is not a delusion.

And I don't understand why you're making it sound like I'm against you... If you believe nothing is going to happen to you after death, and I believe I'll be reincarnated, how will either of us lose, in the end? You get what you expect, and I get what I expect.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2009, 12:55:53 pm »
I do not accept myself someday not existing because I find it impossible to imagine myself not being.
That's not true because you do imagine yourself not being: you said your soul was created.  You are just making some special case for the future.  Regardless, whether or not you can imagine something has no baring on whether or not it's actually true.

I believe that you are failing to wrap your mind around my idea. When did I ever say that your afterlife is a delusion?
Apparently you don't understand the problem I was pointing out. I didn't say the afterlife under your system would have to be a delusion, but that delusion would have to be just as acceptable of a basis as non-delusion since both are belief.  You said that whatever you believe is what you will get. Not what you want, but what you believe. If you had said want, I'd still disagree with you since it lacks evidence, but at least it'd be logically consistent.

But you specifically said believe, and belief has no direct connection to reality; someone can believe something that isn't true just as easily as they can belief something that is.  I'm pretty sure you agree with me on this point as you've stated almost the same thing.  So when you say "whatever you believe is what you'll get", that means your beliefs cannot possibly be incorrect because whatever they may be, you'll get it.  Therefore there would be no difference between delusion and reality as far as the afterlife is concerned.

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And I don't understand why you're making it sound like I'm against you... If you believe nothing is going to happen to you after death, and I believe I'll be reincarnated, how will either of us lose, in the end? You get what you expect, and I get what I expect.
Imagine if someone believed they were going to get eternal torment after they die. Under your system they'll get what they expect, therefore they don't lose, right?

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2009, 07:23:51 pm »
That's not true because you do imagine yourself not being: you said your soul was created.  You are just making some special case for the future.  Regardless, whether or not you can imagine something has no baring on whether or not it's actually true.

To be honest, I can't imagine myself not being in either case, but science says there was a beginning to everything so I just go with it. And the same questions of belief can apply to your philosophy, or any for that matter. I never said I'm right, I only believe I'm right. Actually, I look at my religion as more of a theory than anything else. This isn't something I feel very passionately about, at all.

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Apparently you don't understand the problem I was pointing out. I didn't say the afterlife under your system would have to be a delusion, but that delusion would have to be just as acceptable of a basis as non-delusion since both are belief.  You said that whatever you believe is what you will get. Not what you want, but what you believe. If you had said want, I'd still disagree with you since it lacks evidence, but at least it'd be logically consistent.

But you specifically said believe, and belief has no direct connection to reality; someone can believe something that isn't true just as easily as they can belief something that is.  I'm pretty sure you agree with me on this point as you've stated almost the same thing.  So when you say "whatever you believe is what you'll get", that means your beliefs cannot possibly be incorrect because whatever they may be, you'll get it.  Therefore there would be no difference between delusion and reality as far as the afterlife is concerned.

If I had said "want" instead of "believe", this wouldn't be a fair system at all. Everyone wants what is best for them, but what they believe tends to be more in tune with what they deserve, or at the very most expect.

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Imagine if someone believed they were going to get eternal torment after they die. Under your system they'll get what they expect, therefore they don't lose, right?

They didn't lose, because they expected it. And honestly, they must have been living one terrible life to think such of themselves.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2009, 08:17:43 pm »
To be honest, I can't imagine myself not being in either case, but science says there was a beginning to everything so I just go with it. And the same questions of belief can apply to your philosophy, or any for that matter.
The same questions of belief can apply to your philosophy? What questions are you referring to? I'm not sure what you mean.


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If I had said "want" instead of "believe", this wouldn't be a fair system at all. Everyone wants what is best for them, but what they believe tends to be more in tune with what they deserve, or at the very most expect.
If it's based on what someone believes it's no more fair than if it were based on what they want. In fact, I'd say it's less fair being based on belief.  Some people are a hell of a lot more self-centered then others. These people are not only likely to want better things for themselves, but also to believe that they are more deserving of such things. If the idea is for people to get an afterlife they deserve, then why not just say that and leave the "believe" stuff out of it.

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They didn't lose, because they expected it. And honestly, they must have been living one terrible life to think such of themselves.
Right. It couldn't possibly be that they might believe this because someone else feeding them this idea from a very early age. In case you are not aware, most people we think of as being absolutely horrible people, like mass murders and such, they usually see themselves and perfectly good. For example, a lot of evil has been done in the name of religion, and in these cases they always think they are in the right.  Whether somebody expects something or not has no baring whether they deserve it or not.

I find it very strange that you think that getting what you expect automatically makes it fair. It doesn't.  If you expect someone is going to rob you, it doesn't make it any more fair when they actually do it. The two things are not linked.