Author Topic: Is there life after death?  (Read 13203 times)

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Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2009, 10:40:05 pm »
The same questions of belief can apply to your philosophy? What questions are you referring to? I'm not sure what you mean.
It means that you can ask yourself the same question, in regards to your religious beliefs.

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If it's based on what someone believes it's no more fair than if it were based on what they want. In fact, I'd say it's less fair being based on belief.  Some people are a hell of a lot more self-centered then others. These people are not only likely to want better things for themselves, but also to believe that they are more deserving of such things. If the idea is for people to get an afterlife they deserve, then why not just say that and leave the "believe" stuff out of it.

Unless people are mentally twisted, they should be able to understand what will land them in hell or equivalent. Personally, I don't think anyone deserves an afterlife of suffering, but if they expect it then they must have good reason to. And, I don't believe anyone should be the judge of what people end up with after death. Their true opinions of themselves and what they think is right should guide them.

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Right. It couldn't possibly be that they might believe this because someone else feeding them this idea from a very early age. In case you are not aware, most people we think of as being absolutely horrible people, like mass murders and such, they usually see themselves and perfectly good. For example, a lot of evil has been done in the name of religion, and in these cases they always think they are in the right.  Whether somebody expects something or not has no baring whether they deserve it or not.

Who are you to say what another person deserves, though? If someone ends up doing something extreme in the name of their religion, yet they believed they were doing the greater good, was it really an act of evil? The only person who can determine their true intentions is themselves, and that is why I feel they should ultimately determine their afterlife.

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I find it very strange that you think that getting what you expect automatically makes it fair. It doesn't.  If you expect someone is going to rob you, it doesn't make it any more fair when they actually do it. The two things are not linked.

If you expect someone to rob you, it makes the most sense to get out of harms way. If you think you are going to suffer in an afterlife for who you are, should you not make an attempt to turn your life around?
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2009, 01:40:39 am »
Traumerei: you know, it seems like you are just dodging my questions now.  First, I asked for clarification and you respond by just repeating the same thing. Second, you try to dodge with the phase "mentally twisted" which is really just another name for the delusional which I already shown doesn't avoid the issue.  Third, you accuse me of judging people when I was using the word "deserves" only because you did.  Fourth, the analogy of expecting to get robbed was an illustration to show that expecting something bad doesn't make that bad thing any less unfair. And your response to it was a deliberate dodge.

It's quite clear that we aren't going to get anywhere, and I stand by my statement that the afterlife system you claim to believe is not only logically unsound, but also without basis. (it's clearly unfair, and yet you list fairness as the reason for it)

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2009, 08:44:27 am »
I'm not dodging your questions. Present them in a clear fashion
Traumerei: you know, it seems like you are just dodging my questions now.  First, I asked for clarification and you respond by just repeating the same thing. Second, you try to dodge with the phase "mentally twisted" which is really just another name for the delusional which I already shown doesn't avoid the issue.  Third, you accuse me of judging people when I was using the word "deserves" only because you did.  Fourth, the analogy of expecting to get robbed was an illustration to show that expecting something bad doesn't make that bad thing any less unfair. And your response to it was a deliberate dodge.

It's quite clear that we aren't going to get anywhere, and I stand by my statement that the afterlife system you claim to believe is not only logically unsound, but also without basis. (it's clearly unfair, and yet you list fairness as the reason for it)

This would be a lot easier if there was something I could say to convince you my system is fair, yet you seem dead set on proving me wrong. Obviously, what you think is fair and what I think is fair are two incredibly different things.

1) I misunderstood you're question, I was responding to "Regardless, whether or not you can imagine something has no baring on whether or not it's actually true."

2) "Mentally twisted" was going for insane, rather than delusional.

3) The center of your argument has been what is "fair" and what people deserve, or do not deserve.

4) And I pointed out that if you know you are heading down a bad path, you usually have room to correct it.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #78 on: August 05, 2009, 05:08:46 pm »
Edit: I agree with the others that this arguement has gone on long enough so I've removed this post.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 05:49:51 pm by Vararam »

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #79 on: August 05, 2009, 05:16:12 pm »
Too serious? Not at all. Just because I promote critically thinking about things doesn't mean I take it too serious.

Indeed, it does not. However, what you are doing now is "taking it too serious." You seem to have a strong interest in beating dead horses, which explains why virtually everyone else has dropped out of this thread.

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2009, 05:19:39 pm »
No offence, but that's kinda why I dropped out as well. I suspected that Vararam and I are mostly in agreement, the challenge was on my analogies and figured no point in going on about something trivial.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2009, 05:42:39 pm »
As I said, I don't see much point in continuing.  I'll happily drop it.  Takes the fun out of a debate when your "opponent" refuses to address your points and instead just dodges and tries to shift the focus.   I guess I'm just not very good in finding a graceful way to end the conversation.  For that I apologize.

Offline Traumerei

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2009, 10:12:48 am »
I've been addressing your points. Perhaps you've just failed to comprehend what I was saying.

Anyway, it has gone on long enough. We weren't getting anywhere, and I'd refuse to make this any less civil.
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2009, 09:39:04 pm »
Other people may have stopped posting in this thread, but I guess I'll add my .02 cents.
I'm afraid of dieing because I don't know if there is a soul and if there's a Heaven and a Hell and so forth. If we don't have souls, then what? But I think the thing that scares me the most is how the Bible or people will say your soul lives forever/eternity or something of that sort. Well, I watched a science program long, long ago about how the universe would end trillions and trillions and trillions of years from now. According to that program, everything in the universe will end or dissipate or dissolve, etc., etc., etc. until there is nothing left but a empty black void.  :o If that's the case, then how can a soul live forever? Certainly a soul would cease to exist once the universe ends, right? And if a Heaven or Hell does exist, then certainly that would cease to exist as well?
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Offline Avan

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2009, 12:03:18 am »
I wanted to point out that the end of the universe doesn't happen. The closest outcome there is would be the "big crunch", which reboots the universe. However, that void that kobuk mentioned isn't really a void: it has energy and matter spread throughout it, however it's not matter in the sense we know it. Life could live on, but not life as we know it.

I felt it was almost appropriate that this thread surfaced, with having a death in my life just now.
No, I would not say I'm emotionally involved in fighting my point, the only emotion is grief for a loss. Nothing that would interfere with my civility or maturity or behavior, and it is thus allowable. I fully respect the rights of others to think as they wish to think.

From my experience, we all strive to see ourselves as meaningful, as something in this space-time continuum. With the deaths of loved ones, it's almost as if we could create a life for them through the construction of an afterlife.
I've though ever so heavily about this since I was 5, the age at which I'd say I had my first great awakening, when I was truly born and forged as who I am today.

Now for my actual explanation into what I think.

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Here is an extremely simplified and abbreviated version of what I think:

You, your awareness of self, this is what you could call a soul - this is who you are. It is the summation of all data and processes that you have access to, in this case all the memories and though processes you experience in your brain. The entire universe is composed of data and processes, virtually all of which are outside your awareness - you might not 'see' them, but you can interact with them. My lamp is On. My computer is ON. My harddrive is plugged in. There are buttons being pushed on my keyboard. Each little event, each little status of anything and everything is a form of data and processes. We're like little bubbles in the air: each contained individually, unable to interact with the outside universe or the contents of other bubbles, but we're still made of the same stuff as the outside atmosphere. We're like the neurons of a brain: able to detect and control what's going on within us and sense and interact with our neighbors (thus directing them indirectly, such as talking to someone to tell them to do something), however, we arn't aware of the actual brain we compose. Such as you can't 'see' the 'mind' of the universe - similarily, this 'mind' can't easily impact us in any direct manner. Just as you can't tell a neuron you want it to activate, and the neuron next to it to not.
Once the bubble pops, it releases the atmosphere within to the outside world. Likewise, your awareness itself would slip into the universe's 'mind'. You still leave an impact on the world though, the data and processes you interacted with during your life. This impression is what lives on, what conserves your data. If you choose to, you can make a lasting impact, you can have immortality as "you" and not simply slipping back into anonymity.
I do believe that someone is still alive if you can remember them. It may not be a complete or fully accurate semblance, but it is a piece of who they are, a bit of their impact on the world. Information and data as to who and what they were. And if you can find every bit, you just might be able to rebuild them.

I have personally confronted what death means to me. My only fear is to die before I have completed my goal, and thus, in a way, I do very much fear death. Not what lies beyond, I have come to terms with that. It's the fact that I need to make the most of this life, to make some sort of positive impact that lives, on and carries a piece of who I was. I have no wish to be lost into nothingness, and thus I must make of large of an impact as I can.

And as new bubbles form, all of us will be back within them. We ourselves are really part of that greater mind, and in a sense, we could be described as one and many. It is that mind which must live on in the end, and if we can improve the world, perhaps one day we can build a heaven. We are all bound to return, and thus we should make the world as nice of a place as we can for ourselves.

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Thus for me, it is important to me that I confront deaths immediately in order to remember who a person was, and to store that.
"From my experience, we all strive to see ourselves as meaningful, as something in this space-time continuum. With the deaths of loved ones, it's almost as if we could create a life for them through the construction of an afterlife."
This is my way of giving them a bit of that afterlife.

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My beliefs are simply what I think, based upon my experiences and knowledge I have available to me at this point. What others believe is up to them, and I fully respect their right to that.
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Offline DreamerHusky

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Re: Is there life after death?
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2009, 06:23:52 pm »
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 02:08:32 pm by DreamerHusky »