Poll

Should "Under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

"Under God" should be removed
13 (52%)
"Under God" should stay
8 (32%)
I'm not from the US so I don't care either way
4 (16%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?  (Read 4648 times)

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Offline Avan

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2010, 10:30:12 pm »
I'd like to know where everyone is getting this idea that there's "state enforced patriotism"? Last time I checked, there wasn't any police or military pointing a gun to my head telling me I should say the PoA at a ballgame or whatever. Geez, read what I quoted above in yellow.
You want to see "State enforced patriotism"?

Then get handed a "cease and desist" notice from some domestic intelligence agency for doing research for an IB paper involving foreign perspectives of the US from soviet nations during the cold war, one critical of policies openly known to have been... not the best policies that could have been made then.
That happened to someone very close to me... so yeah. State enforced patriotism.

Seriously. BAD PR. I bet some elronhubbologist was up there in that intel branch dictating policy. :/
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 10:31:55 pm by Avan »
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Offline Kr2i

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2010, 11:48:32 pm »
I don't live in the U.S. but I really don't like the idea of having a pledge of allegiance at all
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Offline Alsek

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2010, 12:16:30 am »
I'd like to know where everyone is getting this idea that there's "state enforced patriotism"? Last time I checked, there wasn't any police or military pointing a gun to my head telling me I should say the PoA at a ballgame or whatever. Geez, read what I quoted above in yellow.

I was forced to say it in school.  I disagree with 99.99% of the people in the country on politic,   but I still think this country is better to live in than the other countries.  So, i'll still gladly pledge my aligance,   but i /was/ forced to in school.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 12:18:07 am by Alsek »

Offline Sigurd Volsung

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2010, 12:38:37 am »
since the phrase "In God We Trust" has been mentioned as being on US currency I should point out that it is there because of another war, this time it was the Civil War in which the Union didn't want its citizens to feel that God was on the side of the South and not on the side of the North.
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Offline Avan

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2010, 12:45:17 am »
 :D
Lol. Gotta love propaganda trivia.
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Offline Shim

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2010, 12:48:15 am »
Should the US honestly be conforming to every standard anybody wants to put?  I'm not very conservative, but the US is the US!  You can choose whether or not you say the pledge at all, but regardless of my religious standpoint, should we honestly be change a line in something we've had since 1892 just because some people don't agree with it?

I'm indifferent.  I choose not to say the pledge, but this country means something to some people.  I don't think we should change what many believe in, just because some disagree.

Just my two-cents.  No intent of arguing this point.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 01:14:09 am by Shim »

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2010, 12:59:54 am »
^ Why not? What inherent value does tradition have, anyway? None, I'd argue. If the Pledge of Allegiance has any value, it probably doesn't have anything to do with the mere fact that it's a tradition.

No one should fetishize the way things were done in the past just because "that's the way it's always been." If "the way it's always been" is morally suspect or otherwise wrong, then we should get rid of those traditions without delay.

I'm speaking in general terms here; I don't care too much about the Pledge of Allegiance specifically, as I mentioned above.

Offline Avan

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2010, 01:06:38 am »
^ Why not? What inherent value does tradition have, anyway? None, I'd argue. If the Pledge of Allegiance has any value, it probably doesn't have anything to do with the mere fact that it's a tradition.

No one should fetishize the way things were done in the past just because "that's the way it's always been." If "the way it's always been" is morally suspect or otherwise wrong, then we should get rid of those traditions without delay.

I'm speaking in general terms here; I don't care too much about the Pledge of Allegiance specifically, as I mentioned above.
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[edit] fixed my spelling
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 01:26:07 am by Avan »
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Offline Arbutus

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2010, 01:16:15 am »


:D Bunny with a carrot!! That is completely adorable, thank you! *nibbles on the bunny and starts petting the carrot*

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Offline Yip

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2010, 01:40:18 am »
Should the US honestly be conforming to every standard anybody wants to put?  I'm not very conservative, but the US is the US!  You can choose whether or not you say the pledge at all, but regardless of my religious standpoint, should we honestly be change a line in something we've had since 1892 just because some people don't agree with it?
I agree with Arbutus. But I wanted to add that, if you want to keep it around for traditions sake, it doesn't need official endorsement. Even if the Pledge was removed completely, people would still be free to say it.

Offline Avan

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2010, 01:49:17 am »
Yeah, it just should not be mandatory. That's the issue. Enforced tradition.
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Offline Shim

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2010, 01:58:40 am »
I have no intentions of trying to convince anybody of anything, or debating.  I simply wanted to state my opinion. Please stop arguing with me.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 02:30:46 am by Shim »

Offline Yip

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2010, 02:07:02 am »
Please.  Read.  
You are free to hold your personal opinion. But if you share it, then others are free to state their opinion as to why it doesn't make sense.

Edited to add:  Don't take it personally.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 02:18:22 am by Vararam »

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2010, 02:30:47 am »
Should "Under God" be removed from the pledge? Absolutely, it has no business being there as it's a clear violation of the first amendment.

Last I checked, the pledge wasn't a law, so don't be so quick to call it a violation of the 1st amendment. 1st amendment violations have become too much a scapegoat, but that's another debate. Besides that, I'm indifferent on whether God should be taken out or not. One part of me likes the idea of returning it to the original form just from a purity (for lack of a better term?) standpoint, but the other recognizes that we were founded largely for religious freedom. For the most part, everyone that founded our country was religious just not all the same one. The pledge doesn't specify any one particular god, so it could apply to any religion IMHO. If you're atheist, feel free to leave it out I guess, or maybe just pretend you're your own god. *shrugs* I'm not religious, but I have no problem reciting with the "Under god" part in it and would do so still today. To be honest, I did once try to say it without "Under God" in it, and it sounded funny. Not surprising though after having it in all my life and then some.

As for the idea of the pledge as a whole, we had to recite it in grade school, but not in high school. Like someone else mentioned, most of us in the US were born here, but I would add that most of us are choosing to stay here. I see nothing wrong with being patriotic about your country and its core principles. Sure, there are leaders we don't like, actions that shamed us, but we live and learn and adapt. The pledge isn't pledging allegiance to any one ideal or political party, etc. It's about unity as a country and the flag as a symbol of our freedoms and liberties (and also a symbol of those to pretty much the rest of the world), which I fully support. If you don't, that's your prerogative, but you wont see any sympathy from me. At the same time, I'm sure no one thinks we're the perfect country, and I doubt one will ever exist for all its citizens, but that shouldn't take away from what does make us great.
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Offline Alsek

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2010, 02:33:05 am »
Should the US honestly be conforming to every standard anybody wants to put?  I'm not very conservative, but the US is the US!  You can choose whether or not you say the pledge at all, but regardless of my religious standpoint, should we honestly be change a line in something we've had since 1892 just because some people don't agree with it?


Hey...
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Offline Yip

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2010, 03:08:20 am »
Should "Under God" be removed from the pledge? Absolutely, it has no business being there as it's a clear violation of the first amendment.
Last I checked, the pledge wasn't a law...
The Pledge itself is not a law, but many states have laws requiring students to recite it*. And since these are public schools, that's where the first amendment comes into play.


*(or at least used to, many now let you opt out. But there could still possibly be coercion thanks to peer pressure)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 03:14:10 am by Vararam »

Offline Avan

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2010, 09:24:14 am »
Really? You can opt out?
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2010, 10:49:19 am »
The problem with saying it doesn't apply to a certain religion is that it says God. God as in singular. Some religions believe in more than one god. So that alone makes that little arguement kinna moot. Dontcha think? :P It's implying a religion that worships a single god. With Christianity and Islam being the two biggest religions with a single god - care to take a guess which god is being implied in our pledge and on our currency? ;)

Offline ominipotentgoldfish

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2010, 08:36:17 pm »
I think this needs a fourth option personally, since I never say the pledge.  I honestly can't say that I believe in staying loyal to this flag.  When I can, odds are I'm moving to Canada as fast as I can. 

That's just me though.  Personal, I couldn't care less what they say in it.  If it helps 'em sleep at night, I say leave it in. 
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Offline Yip

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2010, 05:46:29 am »
Really? You can opt out?
According to a website I was looking at, yes. However, I can't seem to find that site again for some reason, and I found others that seem to indicate that isn't the case. So... I don't know.  But there are definitely some states that do require kids to recite it without a way to opt out. Therefore my original objection is valid. (yes, "under God" in the pledge is a 1st amendment issue.)

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2010, 10:58:41 am »
I've never heard of any states that require the Pledge to be said by law. If you're correct, then I can see your arguement about it being a 1st Amendment issue for those.
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Offline J. March OHare

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2010, 11:15:23 am »
Narei Mooncatt: "I've never heard of any states that require the Pledge to be said by law."

Apparently Delaware does. Here's a state-by-state breakdown. But of course, if you think there aren't consequences for refusing to say it (especially in those states requiring written permission from a parent or guardian to opt out), you're living in a dream world.

Offline Avan

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2010, 11:31:52 am »
Neat listing...Most surprising I thought were entries such as DC's & Arizona's...
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Offline J. March OHare

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2010, 11:42:47 am »
Avan: "Neat listing..."

For once, my own state's actually made me kind of proud:

Quote
Oklahoma: Students are “authorized” to recite the Pledge at the beginning of each school day. Notices shall be posted in conspicuous places that students are not required to do so.

Actually, that pleasantly surprised me.

Offline Kaloth

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2010, 12:18:11 pm »
Throwing my little bit of information out there as I have just recently graduated public school in Ohio. As far as I could remember up until fourth grade noone ever said the pledge of allegiance in school (maybe a few teachers but no one thought much about it, it was their choice and only the students who wanted to had to say it). However in fourth grade (this would be fall of 2001) after 9/11 it became customary to have both a moment of silence followed by the pledge of allegiance every morning. Pretty much everyone I know in the system did this, and if you refused without religious reasons you would get dirty looks from the rest of the class. This lasted until my 8th year, at which point I went to high school and they couldn't make anyone say it if they tried. However from what I hear people in the school systems here still say it at younger ages.

Edit for forgetting: Personally I don't really see the need to keep it in there, but I also don't see the need to have a mandatory pledge of allegiance anyways. Just the two-cents of this youngling.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 12:20:23 pm by Kaloth »