Poll

Should "Under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

"Under God" should be removed
13 (52%)
"Under God" should stay
8 (32%)
I'm not from the US so I don't care either way
4 (16%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?  (Read 4825 times)

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Offline Sigurd Volsung

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Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« on: August 12, 2010, 04:43:10 am »
Here's a fact that you may not know "Under God" was not originally in the Pledge of Allegiance. It was added at the beginning of the Cold War to distinguish or selves from those "Godless Commies". The God most obviously meant in the pledge is the Christian God, I feel that the phrase must be removed because we have rationally separated the Church from the State.

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Offline TashkentFox

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2010, 05:03:38 am »
I'm not American so it doesn't matter to me either way, although if I lived in the USA I wouldn't want a pledge of allegiance at all because state enforced patriotism doesn't appeal to me.

Offline Cimarron

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2010, 06:29:50 am »
This is one of those things that I really dont feel to strongly about either way.  I voted that it should stay, but in reality... How many of us actually say the pladge of alliegence anyway? Im not even sure if I can remember it. I know thats not the point, but in my opinion its not really worth thinking about.  If you agree with it, say it, if not, dont. No one is forcing anyone to say it. I believe maybe the country should have a vote in a national election about stuff like this, and see how the majority of the country feels. As I said before, it wouldnt bother me if it stayed or went away. Like it or not this nation does have a Christian majority, and just because the word God is used, does not necessarily mean a Christian God.
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Offline J. March OHare

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 07:40:49 am »
I couldn't vote. My choice wasn't up there. I'm an American and I couldn't care less.

Cimarron said nobody was forced to say it, but is that true? When I was in grade school we had to recite it first thing every morning. We had to memorize it, as well as listen to a recording of Red Skelton breaking it down line by line and explaining what it meant. If I heard that Red Skelton speech once I heard it fifty times. But, I went to grade school in the 'sixties. Maybe schools don't do that stuff anymore. If not, good for them.

I pledge allegiance
To the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the Republic
For which it stands
One Nation,
Under God,
Indivisible,
With liberty and justice for all...
...Amen!
:D

I did not look that up.

I knew God wasn't originally mentioned in it. That line never should have been included, but at this point we've let our elected officials corrupt the Constitution so many times, what does it matter? The Pledge is mindless, jingoistic nonsense anyway. I agree with TashkentFox: no supposedly free country should make kids recite something like that (not that we took it seriously: we just mouthed it, bored), but no supposedly free country should have something called a Department of Homeland Security, either.

If it were left up to me I'd get rid of the pledge, but of course that's not going to happen. Anyway, like flag burning, it's a trivial matter. I'm more concerned about whether we're going to continue to elect the sold-out whores of both major parties to office. I support drastic, meaningful campaign finance reform. I want an end to bribery as business-as-usual, and a reversal of the twisted legal thinking that defined corporations as "persons" and their money as "speech." I'm fed up with an electorate that blindly endorses any sell-out that gets draped with the Mainstream Media Mantle of Legitimacy. I believe the U.S. has been on the wrong track not just since Bush II, Reagan or Nixon (although all three were ghastly), but for over a hundred years.

Compared to those issues, the silly pledge is small potatoes.

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 07:48:28 am »
I'm voting with OHare on this one, actually. I hate the idea of the Pledge of Allegiance, because I hate the idea of state-enforced patriotism and religious statements. In practice, though, I don't mind the Pledge. Does that make any sense?

Because if I thought the Pledge of Allegiance were actually having an effect on "indoctrinating" little kids, I would be furious about it. But I'm not sure little kids even have any idea what they're saying. They just say what they're told to say. Personally, J. March OHare just posted the words of the Pledge up above, and I barely even recognized them. The words themselves had never had any effect on me - it was just a meaningless pattern of syllables that I reproduced every morning. If that matches the experience of the majority of children, then we probably don't need to worry about the State being successful in imposing a certain religion on its kids.

Of course, we are all free to be mind-boggled by the gall of the congressmen who thought something like this was appropriate in a nation founded on religious freedom. But in the end, there are bigger fish to fry.

Offline Sigurd Volsung

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 08:14:08 am »
Actually I saw a TV news story in which a ten year old was getting trouble for staying seated and not reciting the pledge in school, he was sit down as a way of standing up for people rights. His opinion was that the words of "Liberty and justice for all" were a lie since  people of the GLBT persuasion were treated as second class citizens. I said on my Face Book pages that I hope my son grows up with such moral convictions.
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 10:55:18 am »
Quote
This is one of those things that I really dont feel to strongly about either way.  I voted that it should stay, but in reality... How many of us actually say the pladge of alliegence anyway? Im not even sure if I can remember it. I know thats not the point, but in my opinion its not really worth thinking about.  If you agree with it, say it, if not, dont. No one is forcing anyone to say it.

Same here.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:02:44 am by Kobuk »
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Offline Yip

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 11:03:20 am »
Should "Under God" be removed from the pledge? Absolutely, it has no business being there as it's a clear violation of the first amendment. But, there are a more important things to fight against on the church/state separation front.
Plus:

I hate the idea of the Pledge of Allegiance, because I hate the idea of state-enforced patriotism and religious statements.
I agree with this completely. Even if you took out "under God", there would still be the issue of state-enforced patriotism. How can one be truly free if you are force to have allegiance with your country? I didn't choose to be an American, I was born here.  Now, I'm not complaining about it. For the most part, I like this country, however I wasn't given a choice of where to be born, so it's silly that I should -have- to agree with whatever country I was born in. That's not freedom.

Of course, like was previously said, in practice the pledge doesn't really have that effect.

Offline Kobuk

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 11:19:11 am »
I'd like to know where everyone is getting this idea that there's "state enforced patriotism"? Last time I checked, there wasn't any police or military pointing a gun to my head telling me I should say the PoA at a ballgame or whatever. Geez, read what I quoted above in yellow.
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Offline furtopia02

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 11:20:36 am »
My option isn't up there. I'm American and don't really care about it being in there. I have more issue with the entire thing as a whole but since it isn't forced anymore it doesn't matter to me. Even when I was young and they played it at school over the intercom no one paid attention to it. I don't pledge my allegiance to a piece of cloth let alone a religion, and as long as no one is forcing me to and it just remains an option I have no issue with those who decide to say it. If you want to say it without the God part then just do it that way.

Offline Alexandre

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 02:22:54 pm »
I'm voting with OHare on this one, actually. I hate the idea of the Pledge of Allegiance, because I hate the idea of state-enforced patriotism and religious statements.

I'm surprised how many people think this.  I agree 100%.

Quote
This is one of those things that I really dont feel to strongly about either way.  I voted that it should stay, but in reality... How many of us actually say the pladge of alliegence anyway? Im not even sure if I can remember it. I know thats not the point, but in my opinion its not really worth thinking about.  If you agree with it, say it, if not, dont. No one is forcing anyone to say it.

Same here.
When you grow old, nobody forces you to say the pledge.  However, when kids are young, they are highly expected to do so.  Personally, I used to have a huge sense of patriotism and an attachment to God.  That pledge meant a lot to me.  Now, though, I don't like it at all, and I feel like the way I used to think was partly affected by this pledge.  Then again, I'm easily affected by words and sayings; I believed most things people told me, so this did get embedded into the way I thought and acted.

That's my own experience, and I don't think everyone will feel that same way.  However, I was easily influenced.
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2010, 02:49:41 pm »
I'm American and like fellow Americans, I too  remember the school days. In fact, one of my schools even made us sing the national anthem afterwards! While the phrase doesn't really bug me one way or another, I don't like the forced beliefs they represent. Not everyone is a Christian or believes in a god for that matter. Why stop at that, though? May as well remove "In God we trust" from our currency. The biggest offender of not abiding by seperation of church and state isn't the pledge. It's those bibles you have to swear on in a court system. It's a mockery of justice! If you refuse to swear on those things, You may as well have said "I'm guilty!" in some peoples eyes. Much worst than the pledge issue imo.

Offline Hayaikawa

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2010, 02:53:00 pm »
It was only added durring the "red scare", were no longer fighting godless communists so it's no longer serving its original purpose.

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Offline Rift

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2010, 03:00:06 pm »
Even though I'm a philosophistic christian i still believe that if u don't believe in god u shouldn't hav to say it... its freedom of speech, but hey ifya want honor him with  ;)watever
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Offline TashkentFox

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2010, 03:07:19 pm »
I'm American and like fellow Americans, I too  remember the school days. In fact, one of my schools even made us sing the national anthem afterwards! While the phrase doesn't really bug me one way or another, I don't like the forced beliefs they represent. Not everyone is a Christian or believes in a god for that matter. Why stop at that, though? May as well remove "In God we trust" from our currency.
That was also a result of the red scare, "In God we Trust" only became the official motto of the United States in 1956, previously the motto was "E Pluribus Unum" (English: From many, one).

Quote from: Mooshi
The biggest offender of not abiding by seperation of church and state isn't the pledge. It's those bibles you have to swear on in a court system. It's a mockery of justice! If you refuse to swear on those things, You may as well have said "I'm guilty!" in some peoples eyes. Much worst than the pledge issue imo.
Here in Britain you can choose to take an affirmation instead of an oath, can you do that in the USA?

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2010, 03:34:52 pm »
Quote from: Mooshi
The biggest offender of not abiding by seperation of church and state isn't the pledge. It's those bibles you have to swear on in a court system. It's a mockery of justice! If you refuse to swear on those things, You may as well have said "I'm guilty!" in some peoples eyes. Much worst than the pledge issue imo.
Here in Britain you can choose to take an affirmation instead of an oath, can you do that in the USA?

Yes, it's the same here.

Offline Mooshi

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2010, 03:40:31 pm »
Aye. It's just that some people have that strong conviction that you're a sinning heathen if you don't believe in their religious ways. :P Back on topic,  I don't think these things will really be removed anytime soon. I'm sure someone (or a group) will have a fit and start shouting you're anti-American.

Offline Kobuk

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2010, 04:04:23 pm »
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2010, 04:12:14 pm »
Modified Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance
To the banner
Of the United Forums of Furtopia
And to the Furry Fandom
For which it stands
One website,
In the Fandom,
Indivisible,
With liberty and justice for all...
...Amen!

Not sure that made sense, but oh well.  :-[  :D  :D
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Offline LordFenrir

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2010, 04:38:58 pm »
Modified Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance
To the banner
Of the United Forums of Furtopia
And to the Furry Fandom
For which it stands
One website,
In the Fandom,
Indivisible,
With liberty and justice for all...
...Amen!

Not sure that made sense, but oh well.  :-[  :D  :D


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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2010, 05:00:18 pm »
I never knew furry was so patriotic! :D

Offline TashkentFox

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2010, 05:10:48 pm »
I never knew furry was so patriotic! :D
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Offline Foxpup

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2010, 07:17:37 pm »
I think it should be removed. Patriotism and religion are two entirely separate things and should be kept that way.

I pledge allegiance
To the banner
Of the United Forums of Furtopia
And to the Furry Fandom
For which it stands
One website,
In the Fandom,
Indivisible,
With liberty and justice for all...
...Amen!

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Offline Cimarron

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2010, 07:29:50 pm »
I never realized so many people were forced to say the pledge in school.  I attended a few schools, and I dont remember ever having to recite it.  Although when I moved to Indiana, I was asked if I wanted regular license plates or patriotic ones, I said I'll take one of each.  I got a boring blue and white one for my Cadillac, and an American flag/IN God We Trust for my Mercury (the Fur-cury!) They explained that they could not just give out the Patriotic one, they had to give people a choice.  That is the way it should be...everyone is happy! Still there are groups fighting the state through law suits to get the patriotic plates off the road... If people concentrated on more important issues, they just might improve this world. Just my 2 cents.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Should God come out of the pledge of allegiance ?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2010, 08:44:30 pm »
Even though things like "under God" in the pledge, or "in God we trust" on the money, or other similar things may seem unimportant, the problem is that some people use these things as evidence that the U.S. is a Christian Nation. And from that push further violations of the first amendment. The only sense that this is a Christian Nation is that the majority of the people are Christian. The government is founded on secular ideas, as it should be since we are a diverse people.

I'd like to know where everyone is getting this idea that there's "state enforced patriotism"? Last time I checked, there wasn't any police or military pointing a gun to my head telling me I should say the PoA at a ballgame or whatever. Geez, read what I quoted above in yellow.
You don't need a gun to indoctrinate children. It at least used to be that kids had to say it, even if they didn't know what the hell it actually meant.  And even if you can opt out, if all the other kids are doing it... it could end up being pretty much forced anyways from the child's perspective.

One question to ask yourself, why else put a pledge of allegiance in schools if not to instill kids with a sense of patriotism?  And this is government run schools doing this, thus: state enforced patriotism.  Thankfully, in most cases it probably doesn't do much more than bore kids out of their minds.