Author Topic: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?  (Read 4622 times)

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Offline J. March OHare

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2010, 10:24:00 pm »
Drake Blackpaw: "...there are companies that profit from military spending during the war and those companies will lobby to protect their interests.  That doesn't mean they are the reasons we are there."

Not the stated ones for sure, but look, when you say, "I doubt the current government in Afghanistan would survive for more than a couple of years if we just left and what fills the vacuum would be the Taliban again," what did you expect? How long do think it'll take to stabilize it when nobody ever has? More importantly, what did the military so-called experts expect? Surely the Bush administration had analysts who knew Afghanistan's history (and Iraq's, for that matter), or do they just hire Yes Men with Ivy League PhDs and pay them out the wazoo to screw up? Hell, I knew those regions are countries in name only, inhabited by a very tough bunch of squabbling tribes who only pull together when there's an outside enemy involved; then, when that's over, they start fighting each other again. Lines on a map does not a country make.

Hadn't those "experts" ever heard the Arabic saying, "I against my brother; my brother and I against my cousin; I, my brother, and my cousin against the stranger"? That's basic. That's the way it works. If we pull out of there next week or a hundred years from now, the result will be exactly the same.

I don't buy the argument that our analysts were so ignorant as to think conventional warfare would work. You can't fight terrorism like that. There's nothing to strike. It's like fighting air. The enemy disappears into the desert like a shadow, and he knows the land far better than we do. There are only two ways to defeat enemies like that: you either infiltrate, patiently gather intelligence and take out the leaders one by one (we can't even find bin Laden), or you stop doing the stuff that made them your enemies in the first place.

It just doesn't wash. They either knew the conventional approach was worthless but pursued it anyway for their cronies' perpetual profits, or they're so flat-out incompetent that a Journalism major from a state college with some Master's work in English Lit could've provided a better analysis.

I don't believe they're that stupid.

Offline Yip

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 11:48:17 pm »
You might as well try to discuss the Earth's food chain without bringing the sun into the equation, because the energy flow all starts there.
Discussion of the temperature of the core of the sun vs it's surface, and how fusion works, and so on would be off topic in such a thread if mentioned more than in passing. Same goes here.

Anyways, I agree with Drake, we didn't get involved for corporate profit or any nonsense like that. We got involved because we got attacked, and that required action. It may not have been handled as well as it should have been, but something had to be done, and so it was.

Offline J. March OHare

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2010, 11:21:25 am »
Vararam: "Discussion of the temperature of the core of the sun vs it's surface, and how fusion works, and so on would be off topic in such a thread if mentioned more than in passing."

Would it? Seems to me you can focus down on a debate until it becomes meaningless and pointless, a mere list. Kobuk asked, "Should we pull out of Afghanistan?" Taken to ridiculous extremes, this could become rather like one of those dumb "RATE IT" threads you sometimes see on movie websites: "RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK: RATE IT!"

"10!"

"7!"

"8!"

"9.5!"

"Well, there were things it did well, and things it didn't..."

"OFF TOPIC!"

To wit:

Vararam: "...I agree with Drake, we didn't get involved for corporate profit or any nonsense like that. We got involved because we got attacked, and that required action."

See, there you've opened up a whole 'nother can of worms (never mind your insulting word, "nonsense"). Why were we attacked? Were we? What about all those architects and engineers who are still running around going, "The official story stinks!" Why was Weiner Cheney* running the show that day while the President read to schoolchildren? What was the PNAC's role in all of that? Is it too amazing a coincidence that only a couple of years before, the PNAC had stated in a written report that its plans for a new American Empire were infeasible without a "galvanizing event, like a new Pearl Harbor"? How did a plane hit the Pentagon, which is under some of the most tightly controlled airspace on Earth? What is the melting point of structural steel? What is the temperature of burning jet fuel? Inside job? Outside job with the doors intentionally left open? Was that a false flag attack?

It would be remiss to allow your statement to stand unchallenged. We can't just let someone say, "We got involved because we got attacked, and that required action," because that's bone-stick-stone simplistic. It just hangs there, pretending to be self-evident when it's anything but. The American people were howling for blood, but that's to be expected after "a galvanizing event, like a new Pearl Harbor." So what? The decision to go to war is never made democratically. It just helps if the public is supportive.

Frankly, practically everything that's happened in this country since the hung election of 2000 stinks. I can even call a point earlier than that: the 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

Kobuk's opening question scratches the paint on a ramshackle structure that becomes increasingly astonishing as you dig deeper into it.



*Added in Edit: LOL! The silly filter on this website won't even let me say the former Vice President's name! "Weiner Cheney!" You know, I actually like it better that way.

Oh, and y'all misspelled "wiener." :D
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 11:35:59 am by J. March OHare »

Offline Yip

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2010, 10:00:51 pm »
Remember how I brought up conspiracy theories in the other thread.  *points to post above*  That pretty much sums up why.
I won't respond to that here because that's seriously off topic.

Vararam: "Discussion of the temperature of the core of the sun vs it's surface, and how fusion works, and so on would be off topic in such a thread if mentioned more than in passing."

Would it? ... *snip*
Yes it would. If you can't see that, then you really don't belong in the "furry debate club".
Quote from:  debate forum rules
Keep the threads on topic about the ORIGINAL subject being discussed.  Disrespectful users will be removed from the Debate Club rather than shutting down threads.

So to answer the question of the thread directly, Yes we should pull out. Of course it's a lot more complicated than just leaving. But I don't think prolonged occupation is a good idea. I don't know enough about it to say anything further.

Offline Kobuk

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2010, 10:22:20 pm »
First warning.

Bashing/flaming of other members, their opinions, and/or hatred/slander/bashing of other groups, religions, countries, etc. will not be allowed and/or tolerated.

Also, please keep this thread ON TOPIC.  >:(
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http://forums.furtopia.org/kobuk's-fursuit-guides/

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2010, 11:12:27 pm »
I rate this thread at Three Picards:


Offline Yip

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2010, 12:55:55 am »
Just to be clear about my last post, I don't for one minute believe that J. March OHare thinks that going on and on about the sun would be on topic in a thread about the food chain. In other words, I wasn't saying he should leave, but was instead showing that his position is on shaky ground.

Anyways... back to the topic.

Offline J. March OHare

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2010, 08:08:19 pm »
In an effort to get back on topic, I don't believe anyone has responded to this yet:

Quote
Hadn't those "experts" ever heard the Arabic saying, "I against my brother; my brother and I against my cousin; I, my brother, and my cousin against the stranger"? That's basic. That's the way it works. If we pull out of there next week or a hundred years from now, the result will be exactly the same.

Of course, I don't believe I've seen anyone assert that we should stay yet. We all seem to be in agreement about that. To me, the above (and the other stuff I mentioned in Reply #26) makes staying there useless, but I suppose it could be argued that we should not only stay, but build bases and remain indefinitely.

Does anybody think we should?

Offline Alsek

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Re: Should we pull out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2010, 02:14:52 pm »
I don't think we should be there...

But it's a lot more complicated than to just say,  "We'll pull out."  Pulling out could cause massive issues down there...   A lot of people that have given the US open support down there would suddenly have their support removed out from under them which would be fatal...

It's a sticky situation and there's really no way for it to end well.

On oil,   i don't see an issue there with pulling out on that note...  we could just drill for it ourselves,  we've got pleanty around us.   O.o