Author Topic: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?  (Read 5828 times)

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Offline Avan

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Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« on: August 16, 2010, 12:40:28 am »
Is it so bad?

So you have just been proven wrong.

Yes, you were incorrect, and yes, it is an inconvenience to be wrong, depending on how much infrastructure & R&D you have invested in whatever it is you were proved wrong. I have proven myself wrong multiple times over the course of refining the courses of action to take while initiating the Process, but even though I had to rewrite massive amounts of procedures each time, I was however more correct than the last time, because each time when I could prove that I was wrong, I could further refine the Process so that it would be more logical and efficient. I could make better informed judgments because I was now better informed.

I think that while yes, it is worse than having been right from the beginning, which is the optimal course as it is the most efficient, however also the most improbable, while it is still entirely preferable to being wrong. For when you are wrong, you are ill-informed and are incapable of making good, logical judgments and assessments of a situation.

Although my answer may appear to be logical common sense (or not, considering that my logic, is from an entirely alien POV to the logic that most people seem to think by based upon my observations), it seems that many people would think to the contrary. That somehow it is ok to be wrong. Certainly, it is your right to be wrong, but why be wrong when you can be right? I cannot comprehend this. It does not compute; it is not logical. Not to me anyways. Why be wrong when you can be correct?
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Offline Kr2i

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 01:38:54 am »
I don't think any of us try to be wrong. Some people just don't want to believe that their wrong even when everyone else knows they are wrong and others may get embarrassed when their wrong but you can't be right all the time you know so I think you have to just expect that you were wrong when you are wrong 
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Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 01:48:54 am »
I have no problem challenging my beliefs on whatever it may be. I'll even present arguments against myself despite it being some kind of weird debate taboo. Like if you actually consider the other side's position it means you lose the argument. How does even make sense?

The way I see it, if you are willing to challenge your beliefs, then if you find them to be wrong, you can discard the false belief. And if the belief survives being challenged, then it's more likely that it's true and your beliefs are strengthened. It's win-win.

Offline Mooshi

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 02:06:57 am »
I like to make myself believe..that planet Earth..turns..slowly. :3 -shifty eyes- wait what? This isn't a kareoke bar?! I've been bam-boozled! D< On a serious note, I like viewing things like a scientist would. Even after decades of research, a scientist will bow to the person who proved their decades of research wrong. For  a scientist would rather know knowlege than false beliefs. Yes, it's not cool being wrong, but at least you learn the truth. Makes perfect sense to me.

Offline Wandering_Smoke

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 02:11:00 am »
Some people are either incapable or are unwilling to see or admit that they are wrong. I like to be corrected if I am wrong. I have also had people try and make me believe something I knew was a lie. The only thing I don't like is proving myself wrong after telling someone what I thought was correct then having them not believe the new truth.

For some people, being wrong is being weak and to correct them on that weakness is a direct challenge. It is also sometimes a challenge when people try and feed you a line of dung.

My grandfather is a perfect example of being incapable of seeing a better (or even different) way of doing things. I have tried to explain my logic many different ways and tried to explain why his way is flawed. I have complete understanding of his way. I do it my way explaining as I go and after it's done he is still baffled as to why it worked.

Some people (especially at work) think that an explanation is an excuse and do not listen. Instant shut off.

Most people are doomed to live by trial and error, stuck in what they precive to be the truth and the only way. Your logic is only your logic unless it can be understood by others but that doesn't make it wrong. If your way is better I accept it and use it.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 02:52:27 am »
The only thing I don't like is proving myself wrong after telling someone what I thought was correct then having them not believe the new truth.
Yeah, I know what you mean.  But I think that has more to do with disliking the idea of having helped someone else adopt a belief that you now know is untrue.

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Your logic is only your logic unless it can be understood by others but that doesn't make it wrong.
I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Could you clarify?

Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 02:59:15 am »
For the most part, I agree with you, Avan.  I'm math and science oriented myself, and the importance of being "proven wrong" was shown distinctly in my most recent class which included, among other things, the origins of relativistic physics.  In math and science, knowing that you're wrong means having a shot at a more accurate answer.  The tooltip from this XKCD comic illustrates this best: "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right."

(For those who don't know, relativistic physics came about when it was shown, against most people's current beliefs, that light did not travel via an invisible, potentially flowing medium.  Einstein then used this fact to prove relativity, which then led to conclusions that implied slight but important changes to almost every aspect of basic Newtonian physics, which was the then current standard.  Relativistic physics is more accurate than Newtonian physics for near-light relative speeds; Newtonian physics ended up being an approximation of relativistic physics for low (in comparison to light) speeds.  If the "luminous aether" (or light medum) had never been debunked, Einstein could have never proven relativistic physics.)


There is a particular point upon which I disagree, though.  The transition of one's paradigm of the world from one state to another may not be worth the possibility of transitioning to a more correct state in some cases.  Many people base things such as their moral code, their sense of identity, their place in society, and their emotional stability on their knowledge of the world.  If, for instance, a devout Christian were to be successfully convinced that there is no such thing as a Christian God (I do not wish to imply that either position is "correct" on this matter; I just use this as an example of a drastic paradigm change.), there would be several consequences.  As many of this person's beliefs on morality were based on things pertaining to God (the Ten Commandments, other Bible text, etc.), this person must now find new reasons to maintain the rules of their morality or be prone to their morals eroding.  A new basis for morality could be achieved through conversion to a different religion.  It could also be done with an alternative system such as personal values or the law, but there is a chance that it might not happen at all.  Even worse, there is a chance that this individual's moral system might be rebuilt by a self interested or malignant entity (such as a cult or gang), as having an unstable moral system increases susceptibility to this possibility.

Additionally, depending on the original devoutness of this individual and his or her peers, the newfound belief that God does not exist may mean a choice between the risk of peer ostracization or deceiving peers about personal beliefs.  This individual's new life will undoubtedly be different, but it won't necessarily be better.  It may not have been appropriate to change this individual's beliefs in the first place, given this uncertainty.

This isn't meant to be an argument against instigating or undergoing paradigm change.  Rather, it's meant to show that there is a cost to changing paradigms proportionate to the degree they are influential to an individual's psychology.

I'm sorry if my second argument makes anybody uncomfortable or upset.  It certainly has made me particularly uncomfortable in the past, particularly considering its nearly direct dissonance with the first argument.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 03:33:47 am »
There is a particular point upon which I disagree, though.  The transition of one's paradigm of the world from one state to another may not be worth the possibility of transitioning to a more correct state in some cases.  Many people base things such as their moral code, their sense of identity, their place in society, and their emotional stability on their knowledge of the world.  If, for instance, a devout Christian were to be successfully convinced that there is no such thing as a Christian God (I do not wish to imply that either position is "correct" on this matter; I just use this as an example of a drastic paradigm change.), there would be several consequences.  As many of this person's beliefs on morality were based on things pertaining to God (the Ten Commandments, other Bible text, etc.), this person must now find new reasons to maintain the rules of their morality or be prone to their morals eroding.  A new basis for morality could be achieved through conversion to a different religion.  It could also be done with an alternative system such as personal values or the law, but there is a chance that it might not happen at all.  Even worse, there is a chance that this individual's moral system might be rebuilt by a self interested or malignant entity (such as a cult or gang), as having an unstable moral system increases susceptibility to this possibility.
I disagree....  well kind of.  The concern you are talking about here is why all people should learn critical thinking. If you have good critical thinking skills, the transition is easier (not to say it's easy, but easier), and more importantly, it guards against accepting a different false belief.

Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 09:55:30 am »
The wise is not he who makes no mistake, but the one that does and learns from it.
There's a big difference, however, in being proven wrong, and just plain trolling and harassing.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 01:37:14 pm »
There's a big difference, however, in being proven wrong, and just plain trolling and harassing.
Could you elaborate? I don't see any connection. I don't see how anyone could possibly confuse the two, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Offline Avan

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 09:50:37 am »
I am as confused as Vararam is here.

Trolling/Harassing is entirely unrelated to proving someone wrong. You can't mistake them.
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Offline Shim

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 11:08:52 am »
I understand what Serra is saying.

I was talking on PSN with Rift, and a couple of his friends. We were talking about the final fantasy games, and somebody said something about the leveling system of 10.

10 did not have a standard leveling system, with experience. It had a sphere grid, which you put various stats onto a set path, which you can break off of, and go in different directions later...


I told him this, and he said "Dude, I've played the game like 3 times." I told him "Okay, so you should know I'm right."

He kept telling me that he was right, and that he had maxed everybody's levels. I told him to check. Just load up the game, and check.

The wise is not he who makes no mistake, but the one that does and learns from it.
There's a big difference, however, in being proven wrong, and just plain trolling and harassing.

He did, and continued to try to convince me that he was looking at their levels on the main menu. Eventually, I bluntly said to him "You're lying. Just admit that you're wrong." Eventually, he gave up, and admitted I was right, along with blatantly lying.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 11:16:54 am by Shim »

Offline Kay Alett

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 12:08:04 pm »
I don't mind being proven wrong as long it's proven. Just yelling "You're wrong" is not enough. :D
It's not a bad thing to be proven wrong of course, it shows you what you have done wrong and if you're able to accept that fact and learn from it and move on then you've also shown that you're a mature person.

I've been wrong lots of times and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Yeah it's a little annoying at times but if I knew everything where would the fun in life be? :)

The wise is not he who makes no mistake, but the one that does and learns from it.
There's a big difference, however, in being proven wrong, and just plain trolling and harassing.

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Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 12:18:05 pm »
@Shim:
But that's not being proven wrong. "Proven" is past tense. What you are talking about is someone trying to convince you that you are wrong. That's not what this topic is about. It's about how to react when you actually are proven wrong. Past tense.

I admit that there is a big difference between someone simply asserting that they are right and someone providing actual evidence and/or logic to back up their claim. However, Serra specifically used the word "proven", which makes it a completely different comparison, and one which, to me, doesn't make any sense. Hence why I asked for clarification.

Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 12:25:21 pm »
... but if I knew everything where would the fun in life be? :)
Are you implying that fun requires not knowing stuff?  I disagree.  While, yes, a lot of enjoyment can be derived from learning new things, it's possible to enjoy things when that isn't the case. For example, listening to music you are already familiar with. You are not necessarily learning anything new, but that doesn't mean it isn't enjoyable.

Edit: The above was a (failed) attempt to show through using a strictly literal interpretation that the phrasing of that statement didn't seem quite right. It was not meant to convey that I actually thought that's what was meant (because I didn't), and it was not meant to be taken completely seriously. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 12:55:08 am by Vararam »

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 12:38:47 pm »
That, uh... sounds very little like what he was implying. All he's saying is that an occasional lack of knowledge enables you to be surprised by life sometimes, and that can be fun.

Offline Kay Alett

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 12:48:36 pm »
... but if I knew everything where would the fun in life be? :)
Are you implying that fun requires not knowing stuff?  I disagree.  While, yes, a lot of enjoyment can be derived from learning new things, it's possible to enjoy things when that isn't the case. For example, listening to music you are already familiar with. You are not necessarily learning anything new, but that doesn't mean it isn't enjoyable.

That, uh... sounds very little like what he was implying. All he's saying is that an occasional lack of knowledge enables you to be surprised by life sometimes, and that can be fun.
That was my precise meaning Arbutus. Yes retreading familiar ground, like listening to music you already know, is fun but I find most of my excitement in the exploration of something different and unfamilliar. Often times I'll go wandering around woodsy areas with the intent of getting lost just to find my way back again. And sometimes I listen to familiar music while I do such things to experience what I already know in a new and different, unfamiliar way.

Being "proven wrong" is just another aspect of the same beast to me. It the fun of learning new things, your own perceptions being challenged and perhaps even altered.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 04:31:48 pm »
Yes retreading familiar ground, like listening to music you already know, is fun ...
Then there is the answer to your question.  I figured you didn't mean to imply that it isn't possible to have fun if you knew everything, but that is effectively what you said whether you meant it that way or not. Hence why I had to object. The words you choose are important, especially in a debate forum.

Offline Shim

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 07:13:11 pm »
Are you implying that fun requires not knowing stuff?  I disagree.  While, yes, a lot of enjoyment can be derived from learning new things, it's possible to enjoy things when that isn't the case. For example, listening to music you are already familiar with. You are not necessarily learning anything new, but that doesn't mean it isn't enjoyable.

I don't suppose you agree very much with Fiyero's philosophy, in "WICKED" very much


Dancing through life
skimming the surface
gliding where turf is smooth
life's more painless
for the brainless
why think too hard?
when it's so soothing
dancing through life
no need to tough it
when you can sluff it off as i do
nothing matters
but knowing nothing matters
it's just life
so keep dancing through...

Anyway...

@Shim:
But that's not being proven wrong. "Proven" is past tense. What you are talking about is someone trying to convince you that you are wrong. That's not what this topic is about. It's about how to react when you actually are proven wrong. Past tense.

I admit that there is a big difference between someone simply asserting that they are right and someone providing actual evidence and/or logic to back up their claim. However, Serra specifically used the word "proven", which makes it a completely different comparison, and one which, to me, doesn't make any sense. Hence why I asked for clarification.

He was 'proven' wrong. Even when he did load up the game, and looked at the main menu, to see that there indeed, was not a level on any of the characters, he continued to try to convince me that I was wrong, and that he was looking straight at his "Level 100 Auron".
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 07:29:20 pm by Shim »

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2010, 07:13:25 pm »
I figured you didn't mean to imply that it isn't possible to have fun if you knew everything, but that is effectively what you said whether you meant it that way or not. Hence why I had to object. The words you choose are important, especially in a debate forum.

Solely because this is how you happened to interpret his words, you are attempting to present it as the only interpretation that any logical person with sense would come to (you being, of course, a being of supreme logic and sense). It is not. I've noticed that you tend to do this frequently in debate threads, but unfortunately, it's not a terribly productive way to debate.

The especially odd thing is that even after Kalo proved that you'd wrongly interpreted his words in a way that didn't match his intended meaning, you continue not to acknowledge that this interpretation was wrong. I will point out the irony here and leave my contribution to this thread at that.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 07:18:48 pm by Arbutus »

Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 08:01:32 pm »
There's a big difference, however, in being proven wrong, and just plain trolling and harassing.
Could you elaborate? I don't see any connection. I don't see how anyone could possibly confuse the two, so I'm not sure what you mean.
Eugh, didn't want to, but fine. X3
Being proven wrong is a way of growing. Learning from experiences and mistakes, and using them to build a better criteria, right? It's a basic concept. If you fall down a hole, next time you walk around the hole, right? X3
The part I wanted to hint at was rather the ways of being proven wrong. There's people who will prove something wrong with valid argumentation, elaborate answers and the such, and then there's people who say "Batman is riding Superman, this renders your argument invalid" There's even the "You're wrong just because I want you to be wrong" and people who will just disagree to cause problems.
I know it's a bit leaning out of topic, but that's why I didn't elaborate much on it.
But yeah, being proven wrong, it sucks to take the blow but it's something we all need to learn.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 10:24:12 pm »
Solely because this is how you happened to interpret his words, you are attempting to present it as the only interpretation that any logical person with sense would come to (you being, of course, a being of supreme logic and sense). It is not.
And yet the interpretation you gave was about "an occasional lack of knowledge", and what he said in no way implies "occasional".  You shrugged off my interpretation as though it can't possibly be right. But you do this simply because you don't find it likely that someone would actually be saying that fun requires not knowing stuff. Not because it does not say that.

Well guess what, I didn't find it likely that that's what he meant either. My objection is that it doesn't say what he likely meant for it to mean. And given that he said the interpretation you presented was correct, I was right. :)

Quote
The especially odd thing is that even after Kalo proved that you'd wrongly interpreted his words in a way that didn't match his intended meaning...
He proved no such thing. He only clarified what he -actually- meant, which is fine. In fact, I figured that's what he probably meant.  Speaking of fun and enjoyment, I derive FUN from logic, and logical argumentation is no exception.  Really I was just trying to say that it could easily be misinterpreted if someone took that literally.  I guess it came off as more serious than I really am about it.

@Kaloyan Alett:  If you meant to say that -most- fun things involve learning in some fashion, then I agree. :)

-------

@Serra: So am I correct that you meant to compare "proving someone wrong" and "trolling/harassing"?
If so, I can see that, and I agree. But there is a big difference between "being proven wrong" and "proving someone wrong". And this was the source of my confusion.


Offline Avan

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 10:37:27 pm »
There is a difference between disagreeing with the syntax & disagreeing with the message Arbutus.  ;)
You can disagree with the syntax yet agree with the intended message.
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Offline Arbutus

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 10:55:47 pm »
There is a difference between disagreeing with the syntax & disagreeing with the message Arbutus.  ;)
You can disagree with the syntax yet agree with the intended message.

If one is making random nitpicks about syntax and word choice that don't engage with the intended message, one should examine whether one's post is even on topic.

Not saying it precisely happened in this thread (mostly because the intended message was not at first received). Just a thought.

Speaking of which.

Offline Kaloth

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Re: Proven wrong. Is it so bad?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 11:10:44 pm »
Something my psychology professor said today really fits in with my opinion on this. He said "In science, we aren't proving anything. We set up our tests in a way that might disprove our hypothesis. If we fail to disprove it enough it begins to be accepted."

Note: Slightly paraphrased.