Poll

Has this site gone too far?

Yes. Stop the leaks now!
7 (31.8%)
No. Let the site continue what it's doing.
12 (54.5%)
Undecided.
3 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Wikileaks  (Read 9765 times)

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Offline Kobuk

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Wikileaks
« on: December 04, 2010, 09:33:22 pm »
For the last few weeks, More and more attention has been given to a site called Wikileaks as it continues to open up sensitive information about the Afghanistan war, The Iraq war, US diplomatic cables, and other highly sensitive information about people, places, and things from other countries around the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks
Wikileaks founder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange

But has this site gone too far?

IMO, it's putting our country, it's citizens, and our armed forces in serious jeopardy, and could ruin relations with a lot of countries, both friend and foe.

How does everyone else feel about what this site is doing? What are your thoughts?

Offline furtopia02

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2010, 09:42:54 pm »
Yes, I'd say its gone too far because their sources they get this stuff from swore they would never leak that information. The penalty, if caught, is harsh high security prison time, or death for those persons leaking information from US intelligence. It's a high dishonour to your country to break that agreement and divulge sensitive information like that and I am rather disgusted over that. The American public does NOT have a right to know all information, and, as you said, that information leaked makes major security issues and can carry high consequences of damaging relations and truces with other countries.

For those of you who know a little more about me you will know where I am coming from with this.

Offline Shim

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2010, 10:12:15 pm »
Yes, I'd say its gone too far because their sources they get this stuff from swore they would never leak that information. The penalty, if caught, is harsh high security prison time, or death for those persons leaking information from US intelligence. It's a high dishonour to your country to break that agreement and divulge sensitive information like that and I am rather disgusted over that. The American public does NOT have a right to know all information, and, as you said, that information leaked makes major security issues and can carry high consequences of damaging relations and truces with other countries.

For those of you who know a little more about me you will know where I am coming from with this.

I totally get where you're coming from with this.

I voted no. I like to know what truths my country may or may not be telling me.

Offline Avan

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2010, 10:18:01 pm »
*Sigh*
This is all I can say.
This general idea: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment

Also, the fact that someone leaked the info in the beginning is a problem, which is what Brent was getting at. But I wouldn't shut down wikileaks over it.
Also, I applaud them for their efforts against scamology.

[So what I am saying is it was the leaks who went to far, not the site; they were just be way too careless in some situations]
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 10:29:55 pm by Avan »
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 10:31:25 pm »
I'm strictly against publishing civilian info that can be sold to anyone. However, I support Wikileaks and other sites that leak /real/ news instead of the sugar coated crap that passes as news. Governments are so quick to step all over us, but panic when the roles are reversed. We give them their power, we have a right to know what /really/ is going on. Yes, it's dangerous. But, the worlds governments should be a lot more responsible in what they say/do! If we're held accountable, so should they.

EDIT: Anyone else find it stupidly amusing that the same news stations that complain how Wikileaks is putting people at risk are also opening their gob to talk about the actual leaks on the air? How dumb can people honestly be...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 10:35:03 pm by Mooshi »

Offline Avan

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2010, 10:41:21 pm »
How dumb can people honestly be...
That should not surprise you by now mooshi >.>
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Offline Foxpup

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2010, 10:45:11 pm »
No. Wikileaks is not, and has never been, about leaking secret US government information. A lot (most?) of the leaks concern other governments and private corporations. But, as soon as you get the US government involved, everyone starts screaming for blood. The only part of the whole episode that I find really disturbing is that the leakers could actually acquire huge quantities of classified information without anyone noticing. That's a pretty massive intelligence failure if you ask me. And it's not really Wikileak's responsibility, since the leakers can just as easily find someone else to publish the information (*cough* the media *cough*).

The American public does NOT have a right to know all information,
Well, they did pay for it, mostly with their taxes, and in some cases with their lives. I think they do have a right to know.

and, as you said, that information leaked makes major security issues and can carry high consequences of damaging relations and truces with other countries.

For those of you who know a little more about me you will know where I am coming from with this.
Oh, it definitely has major national security implications, but probably not in the way you think. Have you read Julian Assange's essays on conspiracies? And I know exactly where you're coming from, but I think you're going in entirely the wrong direction.

Offline Kobuk

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2010, 10:48:14 pm »
Quote
I'm strictly against publishing civilian info that can be sold to anyone.

It's not just civilian info., Mooshi. But military info. as well. Info. which is so sensitive and classified that it could severely tip the balance of power to any of our foes if we ever got into future conflicts.

Offline Foxpup

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2010, 10:55:25 pm »
Quote
I'm strictly against publishing civilian info that can be sold to anyone.

It's not just civilian info., Mooshi. But military info. as well. Info. which is so sensitive and classified that it could severely tip the balance of power to any of our foes if we ever got into future conflicts.

But apparently not so sensitive and classified that it can't be transmitted unencrypted... There's a big security issue here, but it's not Wikileaks.

Offline Avan

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2010, 11:09:30 pm »
Quote
I'm strictly against publishing civilian info that can be sold to anyone.

It's not just civilian info., Mooshi. But military info. as well. Info. which is so sensitive and classified that it could severely tip the balance of power to any of our foes if we ever got into future conflicts.
He's referring to mylife.com >.>
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2010, 11:16:34 pm »
lol yes. But! It can be extended to here in the sense I think individual information should be up to the individual to decide if they want it out in the open or not. However, if you're a public figure or a large body (government), you're under a different standard as the very nature is more public.

Offline Drake Blackpaw

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2010, 11:45:03 pm »
I'm very much against wikileaks and the information CLASSIFIED information they published about the war effort and the State Department cables.  Documents are classified for a reason.  Many of them contain information that could put US military personnel in harms way and/or damage important government initiatives.

For instance, one of the things that mentioned on the news about the cable releases is that it mentioned information passed from a Chinese official about their government's current views on North Korea and the possibility of the two Korea's becoming unified.  Information that is vital in figuring out how best to deal with North Korea since China is it's only ally and China's help would really be needed to deal with North Korea.  Now that these cables have been leaked, it's highly likely that we aren't going candid information from any Chinese officials in a while.

Though I do have to say, the best quote to come from the wikileaks release is from the Turkish Ambassador speaking to Hilary Clinton, "Don't feel to bad, you should see what we write about you."  :D

Offline furtopia02

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2010, 11:51:37 pm »
Foxpup: I'll be very blunt with you. You will have no way of understanding my position fully and I will NOT explain it to you in any more detail than I have and am about to. American public has absolutely NO right to viewing classified information (for that matter most of the people serving in the military also have NO right to it either). None, ever, until it's declassified. The military would NOT function at all and would fail at its job without the ability to collect data and keep it a lot of it a secret.

I can't say anything else, so I'm done with adding anything.

Offline Avan

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2010, 11:54:43 pm »
I presume you are under some kind of NDA? >.>
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Offline Arbutus

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2010, 11:56:33 pm »
I am hoping to become a US diplomat myself, so I've obviously been following this pretty closely - especially the Russia-related leaks.

Here's the thing: I don't know what sorts of shocking scandals Wikileaks planned to reveal by publishing these cables, but it appears that they have forgotten to reveal them. If they had any serious evidence of US wrongdoing, they would have released it on the first day - it would be illogical to imagine they'd wait any longer. But by now, I strongly suspect that they have nothing of consequence. The only revelation that has actually surprised me so far is that the government of Yemen offered the US the opportunity to conduct anti-al-Qaeda missile strikes on its territory and then covered up for the US afterwards. And that appears to have been instigated by Yemen itself. Other than that, all we've gotten is a handful of catty comments about foreign leaders and a bunch of supposed "insights" that any schmo who reads The Economist can tell you: that Putin is the one who really holds power in Russia, that Britain is oddly paranoid over its relations with the US, that Sarkozy is impulsive and undiplomatic, that Berlusconi is an embarrassment to his country. Who would have thought??? :o So they accomplished nothing to their credit, as far as I'm concerned.

What Wikileaks has done is seriously harmed a lot of small-scale information-exchange relationships that the State Department has spent years building up. Each of these cables was written based on conversations with tons of government officials, civil society members, and academics, all of whom shared information with the understanding that no one but the US State Department would hear it, and now their words (thankfully with most of their names redacted) are spread across the Internet for everyone to see. Would you be willing to keep acting as a source after that? Losing these information channels will make it a lot harder in the short term for the US to formulate a fully informed foreign policy. Is there any logic in the US not having a fully informed foreign policy? Is there anything admirable about Wikileaks having created this situation?

Two more things: Number one, these diplomatic cables are not even official US policy. They are exactly what the name says: cables written by low-level diplomats about things they have observed in the country, that are then sent back to the State Department to be taken into consideration. So when you read these cables in which the United States of America is purported to have said awful things about Nicolas Sarkozy, how scandalous!, the only thing you have really found out is that some random US Foreign Service Officer in the Paris Embassy doesn't like the president of France too much. Nothing more. And number two, all declassified diplomatic cables are already published by the US government - usually after 25 years, long after their release could do any harm. The only thing Wikileaks has accomplished is to speed up the process to the point where it actually will cause some harm. Way to go!

SO BASICALLY, my opinion on Wikileaks is that they're too full of themselves and blinded by their own messiah complex to realize that they've accomplished nothing. And, given that they've accomplished nothing, I judge their actions based on the harm they've done.

Offline Arbutus

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2010, 11:58:26 pm »
But apparently not so sensitive and classified that it can't be transmitted unencrypted...

It's doubtful that Wikileaks actually "intercepted" these cables in the way you're thinking, because believe me, there's encryption. The leak has been pretty conclusively traced back to Bradley Manning, a low-level intelligence analyst who already had the clearance to view these documents. Failing to monitor him properly and revoke his clearance accordingly was the only failure here - a very consequential failure, but not one that has to do with encryption.

Offline Avan

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2010, 12:00:16 am »
GUISE THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING.
THEY STOOD UP TO HUBBARD. AND WON. (And they did so with a total slap to Hubbards' face by releasing MORE info when he tried to stop them)

That has got to mean /something/, even in light of all the more debatable stuff.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 12:02:33 am by Avan »
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2010, 12:04:38 am »
You wanna know something funny? ^^ I don't even frequent Wikileaks... The stuff about China and North Korea - other simular leaks... I knew about it because the news kept blabbing about it...

Offline Foxpup

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2010, 12:19:23 am »
Foxpup: I'll be very blunt with you. You will have no way of understanding my position fully and I will NOT explain it to you in any more detail than I have and am about to. American public has absolutely NO right to viewing classified information (for that matter most of the people serving in the military also have NO right to it either). None, ever, until it's declassified. The military would NOT function at all and would fail at its job without the ability to collect data and keep it a lot of it a secret.

I can't say anything else, so I'm done with adding anything.

So, I'm paying money to kill a bunch of strangers, my friends are getting killed, and I have no right to know what's really going on? You're right, I don't understand that. I still say I have a right to know. But more importantly, I have a right to know if the military is actually keeping it's secret information, well, secret. The military does have the ability to keep its secret information secret, but it does not appear to be doing a very good job of it. The very fact that these documents were leaked at all is much more worrisome than the content of the documents. Preventing people from accessing files not directly related to their jobs is Information Security 101. If this is what it takes for the US government to learn that, then so be it.

But apparently not so sensitive and classified that it can't be transmitted unencrypted...

It's doubtful that Wikileaks actually "intercepted" these cables in the way you're thinking, because believe me, there's encryption. The leak has been pretty conclusively traced back to Bradley Manning, a low-level intelligence analyst who already had the clearance to view these documents. Failing to monitor him properly and revoke his clearance accordingly was the only failure here - a very consequential failure, but not one that has to do with encryption.

Oh, I know Wikileaks didn't "intercept" anything, I just assumed the cables were transmitted or at least stored without encryption because I couldn't believe that the decryption keys would just be handed out to any low-level intelligence officer who asks for them. If you're going to do that, it may as well be encrypted with ROT13. I've got to stop assuming things.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 12:35:15 am by Foxpup »

Offline Alsek

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2010, 03:17:24 am »
I applaud them.

Offline Yip

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2010, 03:53:40 am »
The very fact that these documents were leaked at all is much more worrisome than the content of the documents.
I agree with this. If security is done properly, Wikileaks and things like it are really a non-issue.

Offline Fenny the Fox

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2010, 11:23:34 am »
I am going to say I support Wikileaks.

I feel that, regardless of the way it is now, the US Government should be more transparent. Citizens, who are paying with their money and lives, in the case of military/ex-military individuals, should know what the government they pay to keep in place is doing and saying.


At the very least, it could minimize the foolishness of the State Department and Diplomatic blunders that have been revealed (the wires regarding Russia, for instance). I think that, were the involved members of the government to be held accountable for proper action and using correct channels to display such information, it would be a good thing - that it might just strengthen our communication policies. And that it might lessen the degree of essentially what amounts to international diplomatic gossip rather than real useful information.

The overall message most of the "classified" documents released by Wikileaks has been that our officials and diplomats can't keep their mouths shut or do what they really should be doing. And the public knowledge of these situations and wires may well make the involved parties think and act more accordingly in the future.
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Offline Serra Belvoule

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2010, 03:18:45 pm »
I think that whereas the governments and general forms of power should be transparent on their actions and the why they are doing it, there's also the point of morbidity and panic attacking, people are censored from some things because it is in part good for their mental health.
Hearing every day on the news about killings here and there can make you very paranoid, and unable to trust people or leave home, for example. Not everyone, I know, is susceptible to this, but remember that the media -in particular the internet- is not good at filtering who receives the information it puts out.
And morbidity, I think, should be self explanatory. People feeding off situations like this and "getting their kicks" out of it is a thing I'd be concerned for...
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Offline Foxpup

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 08:46:19 am »
Breaking News: Julian Assange has just been arrested.

And there's still the matter of the insurance file. Of which I should say that the timestamp it had when it was originally placed on the Wikileaks server way back in July was 12:00am 1 January 2011 GMT. If I didn't know any better I'd say someone's up to something. Oh wait, I don't know better. *puts on tinfoil hat*
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 08:52:20 am by Foxpup »

Offline Mooshi

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Re: Wikileaks
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 09:28:58 am »
All I saw in that entire article were rape charges from Sweden, someone blabbering on like a nutjob about how Wikileaks WILL LYKE LIVE ON 4EVAH LOLOLOL and then Australian drama...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 09:31:10 am by Mooshi »