Post by: Tabbicus on July 13, 2007, 02:22:50 am
I disagree with the composition of the staff. In my opinion, the Furtopia staff should be comprised of members (1) who have been at the forums for awhile and (2) the community approves of. When I did a staff-member search, several names came up of people who rarely post here!
Secondly, every other forum I've been to gave its members the freedom to criticize the staff. Why is this not allowed here? How can anything improve without feedback? Any time I attempt to give feedback, I am met with negativity.
OK, I'm done ranting.
Post by: Mazz on July 13, 2007, 10:26:22 am
In my opinion, before you go out and criticize anyone for the job they do why not think about who keeps these servers up, why you don't see trolls here, who do you think goes through all these registrations to keep trolls out?
Why do you think this forum is still up and running? Our staff work together, some post less on the forums but it doesn't mean they work any less than the rest of us.
--
We don't allow criticizing staff because our staff are all volunteers and how would you like to be criticized for doing a volunteer position that no one pays you for. We have the firm belief that if a member has an issue they may bring it up. We however don't see criticizing as bring up an issue as much as it is trying to make other members feel bad when they are doing wonderful jobs for this forum.
Last I checked our watchers were staff members. You help us do you not?
What's the whole purpose of telling us that you don't like how we chose staff? Do you want us to fire someone or hire others?
We chose who we see will help us in the long run. Staff membership isn't a popularity contest it's a choice we make to chose who in our opinion will help keep this forum you spend your time on up and running.
Post by: Serra Belvoule on July 13, 2007, 11:44:12 am
| Quote (Tabbicus @ July 13 2007, 12:22 am) |
| Secondly, every other forum I've been to gave its members the freedom to criticize the staff. Why is this not allowed here? How can anything improve without feedback? Any time I attempt to give feedback, I am met with negativity. |
There's a suggestion box thread, if I remember correctly.
The thing with criticism is that it can get really out of hand very quickly. Even though there are members who can keep a cool, neutral head, there's always gonna be someone who'll be not so helpful, you know?
I think mods do the best they can.
Post by: Mazz on July 13, 2007, 12:08:22 pm
| Quote (Serra Belvoule @ July 13 2007, 11:44 am) | ||
There's a suggestion box thread, if I remember correctly. The thing with criticism is that it can get really out of hand very quickly. Even though there are members who can keep a cool, neutral head, there's always gonna be someone who'll be not so helpful, you know? I think mods do the best they can. |
Very true words Serra. How you yourself put it Tabbicus you were respectful and didn't just attack.
The majority of criticism we get is basically, "you guys suck" or something else along those lines. Because of this we have denied members to be allowed to criticize staff on open forum. It usually will lead to flame wars from members who want to cause trouble or others who are upset about something and decide to use staff as their scapegoat.
Post by: Tabbicus on July 13, 2007, 12:10:03 pm
Post by: Baconstrip on July 13, 2007, 04:44:10 pm
Granted, a lot of times criticism is certainly unwarranted ... but occasionally it does need to be taken to heart. I do agree though, open forum criticism is usually not very beneficial, but I do think that people should not be afraid to privately let someone know that they take issue with something (not petty crap of course.. but real issue..) . Sometimes people NEED others to bring this up to them so they can become better at what they do.
Post by: Mazz on July 13, 2007, 08:19:52 pm
If they have a problem with rules they can have it looked into as well. If it's well written and explains the reason we can develop good conversation on it.
Post by: Lucifurre on July 13, 2007, 09:07:33 pm
| Quote |
| Even though there are members who can keep a cool, neutral head, there's always gonna be someone who'll be not so helpful, you know? |
I'm comfortable so far with the way things are administered here on Furtopia so far. Though I've been approached by a mod who made zero response to serious concerns I expressed in a PM, I think in general Furtopia strikes a pretty favorable balance between intrusiveness of moderation and openness.
That said, I tend to favor open criticism. And I don't say that ignorant of its limitations.
... the point being. If the problem is people not "keeping a cool, neutral head," and being not-so-helpful, aren't there demerits and scaling punishments (temp ban, permabans) that are the acknowledged proper tools for dealing with people who can't be civil?
Post by: Mazz on July 14, 2007, 01:10:45 am
Post by: Serra Belvoule on July 15, 2007, 11:15:24 pm
| Quote (Lucifurre @ July 13 2007, 7:07 pm) |
| ... the point being. If the problem is people not "keeping a cool, neutral head," and being not-so-helpful, aren't there demerits and scaling punishments (temp ban, permabans) that are the acknowledged proper tools for dealing with people who can't be civil? |
hmm... ON a community with so many furs around? I think it'd lead to a huge amount of tempbans. Specially it's the only answer for demerits.
Maybe having a shared inbox for staff to read PMs with concerns for furs? And adding like a minimal character usage so they won't sends PMs like "I hate you all" and stuff.
Post by: Lucifurre on July 16, 2007, 12:47:54 am
Anyhow, I was just trying to say: uncivil, hot-headed criticism's going to be dealt with, yes? Whether it's hot-headed criticism (aka attacks) of a regluar member or of staff. Yes? (I don't really know what your 'ways of dealing with' people are. I just mentioned temp and permabans as sort of industry standard, so to speak, of forum disciplinary actions.)
I guess I'm unclear on whether there's policy for ban on *civil* criticism of mods. If there is, I think there was some merit in the OP bringing it up. If there's not, I don't undersand why there should be any special rules that mention criticism of mods.
Post by: Vintage on July 16, 2007, 02:23:21 am
I really think that an open forum on these kinds of things is the best option, because people can actually see what's going on, they can offer their input (and if they're not civil, they'll see their post warned/deleted, etc), and others see that (even if it's not) someone's input is taken into consideration, so the staff at least might be listening, and this contributes to the community as a whole.
Segueing into that, I have a suggestion about warns and bans:
Warns: I think we should switch to a warn system and that posts should be deleted as little as possible to better the flow of conversation. It serves as an example in the case of someone breaking the rules (their post is visibly warned), and even if it was really bad, you can still edit the post to become acceptable under the terms of use. Deleting a post makes sure that the example of rules-breaking disappears forever, and with any kind of communication, that's the worst alternative.
Bans: I really, really don't think it should be done unless (a) someone has done something grievously wrong, (b) has accumulated enough warns, or © they ask for it (and even then, there's the Closed group.) I noticed someone got banned, and that some of the last posts s/he made was that s/he didn't really feel that close to the community and was leaving. In that case, why not leave the option open? The option should ALWAYS be open. If there's something I'm missing or information to which I am not privy, feel free to correct me on this matter.
Thanks.
Edit: This caught my eye--
| Quote |
| We don't allow criticizing staff because our staff are all volunteers and how would you like to be criticized for doing a volunteer position that no one pays you for. We have the firm belief that if a member has an issue they may bring it up. We however don't see criticizing as bring up an issue as much as it is trying to make other members feel bad when they are doing wonderful jobs for this forum. Last I checked our watchers were staff members. You help us do you not? |
In my opinion, that is the BEST circumstance under which to criticize, because you're NOT being paid to do the job. I could tolerate (and have tolerated) criticism with no problems for several volunteer organizations in my lifetime; being a volunteer is not an automatic criticism shield. You seem to confuse criticism with outright flaming, which are two completely different things. Criticism shouldn't make you feel bad, it should make you think.
Part of being a moderator or being a staff member is having a thick skin when it comes to criticism; it's the know-how to take the constructive criticisms you get (however brutal), cull them to which ones are most important, and make the community better as a whole.
Post by: Kada-Ru on July 19, 2007, 05:50:44 pm
As for what happens when a complaints/suggestions comes to a staff member it is posted to the staff, viewed, discussed and if needed voted on. Depending on the subject of course.
There is also, as Serra pointed out, a 'suggestion box' section on the forums where members can post a suggestion for all to view. Not just staff but members as well and members are also welcome to post their thoughts about the topic. But keep in mind, that isn't there for members/staff to bring up any drama. Just a place to put suggestions.
There was a suggestion some time ago about allowing members to talk to staff in the IRC about things they were concerned about. Though the staff were there, hardly any members showed up so I'm not sure it is still being used. (I've been away for some time.)
So, everyone's ideas/concerns/suggestions DO get looked at and discussed. Whether it goes a members way or not is another matter. Some times the staff has to vote on suggestions that best fit Furtopia and it's members as a whole and may not go the way the submitter expected. This doesn't mean it wasn't discussed or ignored. It just means the staff felt it wasn't what they felt was in the best interest of Furtopia as a whole.
I hope this clears some things up for you, Vintage.
