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not-so-furry discussion => general non-furry discussion => Topic started by: Old Rabbit on March 03, 2018, 01:02:07 pm

Title: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Old Rabbit on March 03, 2018, 01:02:07 pm
Over the past quarter century many jobs have been lost to robots. Up to the
last few years they were mainly used to handle heavy dangerous work.

Some may want to compare them to vehicles like Trucks, and other heavy
machinery, but when one is used to fry and assemble hamburgers is it a
labor saving device or does it take a job someone might need?

When does it change from a labor saving device to a job taking device? I
am sure most business owners would call them labor saving and or cost
saving devices.

From the beginning of the industrial age about 150 years ago many people
found jobs in factories, and other manufacturing areas. As time past machines
were invented to take over dangerous work or to speed up manufacturing.
This has made products we take for granted affordable.  At what point do we
draw the line to save needed jobs for people. Or do we pay people not to work
so a robot can do their job?

This one of many decisions I am sure those in the near future will have
to make. Some may feel their job can't be done by a robot, but as with
computing power increasing exponentially  so is robotics. Big business
will use them to cut jobs and costs unless there are social law to protect
people. These laws will infringe on current rights, so working them out
will be difficult. They will have to choose between good economics and
social responsibilities.

I fear as usual people will wait until it becomes a crisis before anything
is done.

In science fiction Robots do all work and let the people do creative indevors.
Trouble is there will be a large gap between now and the time where machines
can care and provide for our wants and needs. Knowing how some humans
are, robots will be used to commit crimes.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: cause the rat on March 03, 2018, 02:38:28 pm
Nope. I'm still more accurate by hand than a computer controlled machine. There is still way to much that can go wrong. First you have the guy that has to program the machine. Then you have the constant breakdowns of trying to put technology into an environment that his hostile to electronics. I've worked around robotics before. They work great when they work. And best in an environment that can be controlled.

There are still leaps in technology we will have to overcome to get robots to have as much processing as our brains. First we would have to overcome our digital, or 1, 0 processing. This has a barrier it can't cross. You would end up with processors to process processors processing processors...... way to much that can go wrong. Secondly we would have to create an AI that is self aware and aware of it's environment. An AI with problem solving for even simple actions. Not until we get past the 01000001 = a.

We all use labor saving devices. I have a garage full of power tools. And a kitchen with lots of power tools as well. I can start with the stove, than a refridgerater and a mixer, coffee pot......  :) I remember reading articles about how horses are better than tractors. People have always fought technology. That's were Steampunk and Cyberpunk came from. Truth is we wouldn't have computers and cellphones without robotics. There are some things a person can't do. In the end we all will have to measure the good with the bad.
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Jade Sinapu on March 03, 2018, 09:15:03 pm
This topic is important to me, so I may run a bit long here.

Every week it seems, that someone is asking me to do the impossible, make  or do something that has ever been done before. 
And I mean never been done before, period.  It may sound cool, but it is taxing, and is tedious. 
I might one day be open to some AI helping me with my job (if it even could). 
Engineering and many other jobs are a learning experience every day and is error prone to say the least. 
We would all like some assistance at times.  But do we want AI just yet?

In the past I have written many tens of thousands of lines of code, probably more. 
To control power supplies that are used in server farms, automotive electronics, applications for computers, PLC (programmable logic controllers) code for water and wastewater processing plants, and also wrote code for rangefinders and other sensors.
I had to ensure that NOTHING bad could happen when the code executes.
And often the code had to be streamlined to run as efficiently as possible so the CPU could be cheaper.  Often times code compilers were not up to the task (in the embedded CPU world) and I had to resort to assembly language and count instruction cycles.  AI may do this too, but so far, I win.

Why do I bring that up?

I have seen code written by applications (a form of AI) and it stinks 80% of the time.  Its barely usable at times. 
A human SO FAR is better at that job.  BUT AI is getting better too!  And AI could write AI code!  And it probably is now!

AI is a program written in such a way to exceed its self. It can almost take on a life of its own, and do things that were not envisioned by the original programmer. 
An AI program in its perfect form would actually be indistinguishable from a human.  I think that this is called the Turing Test.

The Turing Test is basically three different rooms.  One with a human, one with AI, and another with a human observer/tester. 
The observer gets responses from both the Human and the AI and has to determine which is "alive" given the answers to the questions they asked them both.
How do you know that I am not AI typing this to you?  You don't.  You've never seen me.  Never talked to me.  Just  saying.

So back to Old Rabbit's original question.

The way I see it , if we do nothing but accept AI in all its forms as it comes into the scene...

Some jobs will not get taken over ever.  These will be the very creative ones geared towards AI applications.
Many jobs will be very resistant to AI overtake.  These will require creativity and dexterity and niche applications
Majority of jobs will be under pressure to work with AI.  These may be so called manual labor.
The low hanging fruit is already being taken over by AI and we all are accepting it without much questioning. 
It’s called conditioning (my opinion).

Many people use devices to assist them.  Self-parallel parking.  Talk to text.  Collision avoidance.  etc...
These things are so welcome, that they set us up for accepting more of the same.  People do not question things like that. 
Some of us do.  I do, but I am rebellious and think for myself.

I personally forced myself to learn to parallel park.  I am PROUD of that, because it was hard for me to do.  I invested time and effort to do it.
I am awake and aware when driving to avoid collisions.  I am Proud of that too, and like the idea that I am proactive in protecting others.  Happy I CHOSE to be a good driver instead of trusting only a program.
But I like talk-to-text, if there is no external noise to confuse the phone and my fat tongue doesn't get in the way.  But I also can text fast too!

I believe that if we humans want to ensure that all of us have some basic ability to live life as the individual sees fit, then for many people, a occupation will go a long way towards allowing one to feel self-worth, accomplishment, and provide valuable original thought to the whole of society.
It’s a big confidence boost to see the results of ones work, to make with your hands.  To be creative, original, and to help others directly.

If we all just live to be alive, well that would be okay, but some of us, many of us (ME) would rebel and insist that we do more than just sit idly by as AI does our work.
I personally would attempt to work side by side in new and creative ways to try to compete against AI. I would want to show AI that Humans are good to keep around.  Just in case AI wants us gone.

It’s also the principle for me, we created AI to be our servant, don't let it run our lives.
As long as we keep it in check, and let people be what they want to be in life, we should be good.  I say , AI as assistance for dangerous and humanly impossible tasks.  And also use AI for those who have degraded capabilities.

What rubbed my fur backwards...
Both my parents started in factories.  My mom in a sweltering glove factory in rural Arkansas.  My dad in a beer can production line.  The factory work was predictable, solid, and satisfying for both of them.  The pay was low, but it was sufficient for them to survive.  It was those jobs that gave them the ability to raise a family and have me.  It was their hard work which allowed me to get a higher education. 
I will not turn their hard work around and knowingly force others like them out of jobs by using AI specifically as a cost savings tool.  It would be hypocritical and wrong of me.  I see in every "factory worker" my parents, good people who care and try very hard.  I do not take it lightly!  I have been asked in my various jobs to basically put people out of jobs.  I refuse quietly.

I highly recommend every engineering student to take an engineering ethics class and to remember their roots and what it means to be human and derive satisfaction from living.

Do you want to live it, or just be a spectator?
Some people may just wither away not having a purpose in life if AI takes it away. 
I am one of those people.

I say, take Cause's advice, take the good with the bad. 
AI has its uses, and is invaluable!  You too are invaluable! 
Use AI wisely. And if you are in the position of making AI, think long and hard! 
Remember there is someone else like you out there who needs a job as much or more than you do!
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Old Rabbit on March 04, 2018, 01:24:54 pm
Yes currently AI is pretty much limited to predictable paths. Work
is being done to copy the biological brains way to work out problems
and handle data manipulation. As is we are approaching the limits of
integrated circuit miniaturization and speeds, though programing will
likely improve with world wide access to computers.

The problem I see is the basic design of computer systems doesn't apply
it's self well to AI. Kind of a brute force approach, where the bio-
brain uses massive interconnections and on the fly reconnects to work
out it's activities. Once engineers work out these problems, then with
the speed of a non bio brain, what takes years for man may only take
seconds for a android brain to create or work out. Then we will need
to decide who has a right to a job. The machine or man.

If such a brain was available you can be sure big business would
use it to design programs and machines instead of a room full of
engineers. It wouldn't be the first time big business did something
risky or dumb.

I often wonder if a self aware electronic brain was developed, would
it be able to realize it's potential? Or would it just say "Duh"? It's
easy to program current AI's to  do things, but  a brain might be
unable to learn or understand what is expected of it. After all many
bio brains can't learn beyond an elementary level. There is more
to learning than just having a good memory. Animals have good
memorys, but have trouble understanding abstract concepts if
at all.

This breakthrough may be many years in the future, or it may not.
it's being worked on, so time will tell. 

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Old Rabbit on March 18, 2018, 01:05:44 pm
There are estimates that over 800,000,000 people world
wide will loose jobs to AI robotics by 2030. Not just food
service or vending machines, but paralegals, secretaries
and otherstoo. At what point will a minimum income for
people be set up?

I am sure many would oppose an minimum income by
saying it would give people an excuse to not work. It
would be cheaper to provide a minimum income than paying
people to hand out welfare. Also providing an income would
drive and additional Trillion dollars in  yearly sales, and
create 10's of thousands of jobs.

Sure some would sit back and try to live on a minimum income,
but it would be e living that most would not wish to endure. The
bad thing would be for politicians to set it up as a punishment or
way to get votes, by removing so called gold diggers, or because
someone made a buck or two.

Peopl are alreay talking about a minimum income, but it will be a
long time coming I am sure.
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Jade Sinapu on March 18, 2018, 02:58:31 pm
If we all lived in a world where robots and AI made many jobs unnecessary, then if at the same time we do not watch our population growth, we may have many people who never have jobs from birth to grave.  It would be a new way of living for all of us. it may cause violence out of fear how to survive.  We should give it thought now.
Our priorities may shift, without the burdens of "work" would we be more inclined to worry about the environment, peace, and other lofty goals?
Is it the struggle to survive that causes us to get frustrated, angry, and forget our ideals at times?
Or without a job to perform, would many of us get restless and upset,and "do something about it" and revolt?
I don't know.

I have thought about some of the scientists of old, like Newton.  Not only did he question the nature of many things ,we must remember he had the time, money, resources to do so.  He was not poor and destitute.  He was born in a wealthy family.  All that meant is he had free time to ponder such things as nature of gravity and light.  He had access to education.  He was free to think about what he wanted when he wanted.  He was not under pressure to produce massive results for a profit. He was able to let his  creativity flow.  How many a smart person has been derailed from their true dreams because they didn't have the chance to pursue it because they had to make $ to survive?

If the world could come together, and if we had lots of AI that was our faithful companion which respected us, and us them (golden rule), then maybe we all could relax more, and an agreed upon universal system could exist to make it possible for all of us to have a basic income.  Saying that if we all didn't have to work super hard to be able to just survive, then we may not be so inclined to be hot under the collar when people talk about using "others money" for "someone else".  If money was not the driving factor in life, it would be less important to us, and make it more likely to give it to charity or a universal system?

Not anything extravagant, just a shot at having adequate food, water, air, shelter, protection, representation, education.  It would be nice to know, that no matter how bad things got, that you could drop back to the basic level, until you could get back up on all paws and start running again.  Regardless of age, race, anything at all.  And if you started out in the universal income system you could find a way to work and get more if you wanted it. 

It would almost make the country like a big family, with very nice parents. 
Just think, you try hard, you do well, pay into the system.  Then one day, you injure your back and can't work for 2 years.  At that time, you live on the guaranteed base income system.  All you would have to worry about is getting well, and getting back to work.  Without the other burdens, you have no excuse not to get back to work.  With an environment like that to grow up in, you might be happy to put into the system! 

As it is now, you get injured, lose work time, lose money, insurance covers only so much, go into debt, get bad credit.  Hard to get a job with bad credit, hard to get housing.  Time out of work on a resume looks bad to some employers.  The stress slows down the healing process.  You re-injure the back because you couldn't afford time off to let it heal.

You injure your back, employer understands, normal system of short term disability kicks in, then maybe long term disability.  Then after that, the basic income system.  You live off of that until you get well.  Then go back to work.  Employers understand why the resume has a break in it an are willing to hire you again.  You never went into extreme debt, never had to stress out about food, rent, water bill, etc..  Never had to turn to a life of crime to support yourself and family.  And your children see this all unfold and understand that no matter how bad it gets, the country and its great citizens will be there to lend a helping paw.  And this lack of stress will maybe mold their minds into a peaceful one, one willing to lend a paw too.  we become more family like.  How many families are ruined because of money stress?  How many kids/adults act out in violence because of stress and fear of what the world will hold for them in uncertain times?

And of course for the permanently disabled for which there will always be a percentage of our population, why not take care of them?  It could be any of us at any time?  It would say a a lot about us as a group if we could do something like that.  I know we have some programs to do this, but it could be better.

Yes, there will always be some who refuse to work, contribute, be more, when they very well could be doing so.  But also, without the pressure to HAVE to work, maybe they could feel free to choose whatever they wanted to do to make any amount of money, little or big. This may allow them to be more creative and free, more productive and original. 

And it could help the underpaid.
Teachers get paid too little in my opinion.  If we all got a base income that was sufficient, then those who love to work,but who are underpaid, could survive better doing what they are passionate about.

So if AI starts replacing people, can we engineer a system NOW that can help to shape our society into one where we transition those who are displaced into new jobs?  And as AI starts making it more and more likely that we don't need to work to survive, can we start designing into our society the guaranteed income system?  Then we all breathe easier?

I know most of my problems are caused by stress, and that stress for the most part comes from the ever looming question of how will I survive?
Just knowing that there is a safety net for all of us, regardless of age, race, sexual orientation political affiliation, anything at all, would go a long way towards making me happier and dare I say more peaceful?

I know I may have been overly optimistic, but I wanted to dream for a little.
So if we can deal with the transition to more AI, perhaps the future is a better one?
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Old Rabbit on March 19, 2018, 12:10:46 pm
Universal care is not a path to utopia, but it would go a long way to solve
societies ills.

I do believe Robotic AI will move society to one of universal care, but I fear
it will be slow to come. Mainly due to greed and the desire for power over others.

One path to a good society where people are willing to look after each other is
education. The uneducated left to their own reasoning often leads to following
those who wish to mislead others for their own benefit. Education alone won't
prevent this but it would limit it to a great degree.

So there should always be a requirement to be educated for the benefit of society and
the individual. Even with a good education there will always be those with  mental
problems, but without the stress of survival it shouldn't create the same problems as it
does today.

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Jade Sinapu on March 19, 2018, 12:45:04 pm
Education does empower us to think for ourselves more and be more likely to know when we are getting fooled.  It does remove some of the power others have over us.  I agree with you Old Rabbit.  Kind of like watching a commercial about a product and recognizing the trick used on camera to promote it. Like vacuum cleaners...

AI has it's uses, may reduce some of our burden, but I hope we all can still live as we want with very few left behind.
 A utopia will never exist, and in fact it sounds like it may be rather boring if it did. My opinion of course.
Where power is concerned, it seems that someone invariably decides to use it for less than good means to control others.  AI being a powerful thing would lend it's self to being used against us if allowed.  If we are educated about AI then we may know what to do if the day comes when someone uses it against us
. And being educated we could use it for good things to help others.

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Old Rabbit on March 21, 2018, 11:53:03 am
Robots won't bring about a Utopia. Hopefully they will help us
all have a better life in the end. We will still have to deal with
people who will try to use AI and robots to take advantage of

The trouble with the concept of good and evil is it varies with
each one of us. So it would be impossible to program AI for
good over evil. About all we could do would be to have some
algorithm that follows a list of rules that the majority agrees

This varying idea of good and evil prevents any possibility of
a Utopia. And yes I agree even if a Utopia were possible it
would be vary boring for most if not all people. Our mind
needs a challenge to prevent boredom. Even our animal
friends need activity or they become bored.

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Jade Sinapu on March 21, 2018, 12:42:09 pm
Well put my friend!
Does cybernetics fall into AI, or since the organic being is connected to the machine, it's just an enhanced version of ourselves?
That is something many could benefit from, like those who have severed spinal cords, give them function back. Maybe that form of AI keeps jobs!
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Firelight on March 21, 2018, 09:46:19 pm
I work at a cat boarding place. You can't cuddle kitties with a robot  :D
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Jade Sinapu on March 21, 2018, 10:07:27 pm
Nope, animals are harder to fool!  We let ourselves believe a robot is human if it looks like one.  But cats,dogs,etc can smell hear taste the difference. Plus we are soft, warm and sometimes fuzzy like them.  :) Robots traditionally are not.
So, another job that is AI/robot resistant
Hurray for cats!
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Old Rabbit on March 22, 2018, 11:37:13 am
Sometimes people use ticking clocks to give baby animals
a feeling of security. Some baby chimps will cling to
plush toys for security. They probably add a natural
smell to the toy to help the youngster accept it.

I imagine most animals would find interactive toys
interesting to play with. Especially if it challenges their
natural hunting instincts .

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Jade Sinapu on March 22, 2018, 01:21:05 pm
I didn't know about the clock idea.  I can kinda see that working. 
My sister has used plush stuffed animals at a vet hospital to keep animals company.  She also comes in everyday to interact with them.

Having an AI/robot to keep a pet happy is a neat idea!
But I would always prefer to be there in person.
I do use a good R/C car to keep my dog active, and have thought of putting an animal theme on it.  But as it is she already "kills" it without it looking like prey.  And it's getting expensive to fix...
An artificial intelligence to keep my house safe and orderly as well as keep the dog happy is cool.  But again, I would rather live with someone , so far no luck there... :-[ :(
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Varg the wanderer on March 22, 2018, 05:46:16 pm
I do use a good R/C car to keep my dog active, and have thought of putting an animal theme on it.  But as it is she already "kills" it without it looking like prey.  And it's getting expensive to fix...
An artificial intelligence to keep my house safe and orderly as well as keep the dog happy is cool.

Your "natural intelligence" does keep your house safe... ah, orderly. That's the hangup. I was going to say, usually a proactive, carnivorous security system works pretty well. Especially the black and tan ones, they tend to keep going even after they've been shot...

I wonder if you couldn't cover the car with something heavy and durable, like a firehose hard stuffed with shredded rags or something. Your girl sounds like mine: Her idea of entertainment is chasing it down and "killing" something simply because it moves... unless it's human shaped. Or bigger than her. Or a cat, but only if the cat stops and she figures out it's a cat. :p

I'm leery of AIs simply because of all the privacy invasion that is already going on. They seem like a huge opportunity to simply intrude more.
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Jade Sinapu on March 22, 2018, 06:04:11 pm
The natural AI home security I have does work.  And she doesn't tear up the house too much.
She is old but people don't know that.

Some times she counts coo as she hits the R/C car with the ball she has in her mouth.

AI systems "listen"all the time.  Speech to text is a good example, or tv remotes that you can talk to or Alexa etc...
They are not processing data internally on the fly as we do,  they are streaming it to a server with processing software. Your voice is being profiled and processed elsewhere.  I think that is how that works.
If so, they are storing voice snippets somewhere if only in memory.

Sometimes the best thing  in life is to forget,  AI never will forget anything.

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Kobuk on April 12, 2018, 03:29:39 pm

*holds up a big sign and starts protesting*

Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Rocket T. Coyote on April 21, 2018, 09:03:37 am
I work in the water department. Robots rust, corrode, short circuit under such conditions. My job is safe.
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Rocket T. Coyote on May 16, 2018, 10:32:53 pm
If your ambition is serving frozen yogurt to the public, there's a robot that does that. Ads running on local radio offer franchises in such a vending machine to be set up in high-traffic areas like shopping malls, college campii, airport lounges, etc.
Title: Re: Robots, will one take your job?
Post by: Old Rabbit on May 17, 2018, 01:10:13 pm
The future may be one where we will be cyborgs like the BORG from
star trek.  We will only exist to service a machine. Or man may be
replaced by electronic lifeforms. Androids, virtually immortal beings
spreading from here to populate the Universe.

It's possible there are already such beings searching for raw materials
to feed their replication. No point in worring. It's a big universe so such
expansion would take millions if not billions of our years.