Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.

[Old Rabbit]

It appears the Obama administration has pushed the issue, and now
several states are saying NO!!  At least the governers are.

Apparently there has been questions from schools and other public
entities on what to do or how to proceed. So the president made it
clear.

This obviously will cause quite a lot of consternation among those who are
against the idea. I hope it doesn't do more harm than good.

If I had a daugter in school I would tell her to do her business in
the stall. Including undressing or dressing. And if someone with a
male body exposed them selves purposely, report it and tell me as
well. Just as you would if it happened anywhere else.

Locker rooms propose a different problem since there may not be any
private space for those who want or need it. Even among those of the
same physical gender might want a private space for personal reasons.

Over the years I have been in new construction, and all womens public
bathrooms have stalls. As long as they are in good condition there should
be no problem. If they aren't they should be repaired immediately
.
There are very few transgeder people anyway. They havea bad enough time
without politicians adding laws against them.

[Kobuk]

As I said before in the Transgender thread, this is an attempt at the President/Federal Gov't going too far. As is written in the Constitution, the powers not granted to the Federal Gov't should be relegated to the State. The States should determine their own transgender bathroom policies. Not the Federal Gov't.  In fact, I don't see this whole transgender bathroom issue being a major issue right now when there's bigger and better issues that need taking care of in the U.S. (and/or world) during a Presidential election year. I care more about issues like unemployment, Social Security, Dealing with ISIS, and a whole bunch of other issues that have a much higher priority than what bathroom a person wants to use. 

[Ancusmitis]

Here's a blog post on the issue by a gender nonconforming person called "Glorify."  If you're actually interested in this, then you may want to look at their personal experience on the matter.  This is not the whole post, but here's a salient excerpt:

I use the bathroom as quickly as possible. I don’t know what the supporters of bathroom bills think trans and gender non-conforming people are doing in there, but I can assure you it’s not exciting. In fact, I can testify that most of the time we get out as soon as humanly possible. Then I wash my hands, carefully avoiding the mirror-reflected gazes of the woman next to me. I say nothing, unless something is said to me. And then I leave.

I am lucky in that the worst that has ever happened to me in a women’s room is that I’ve been embarrassed. Friends of mine have not been so lucky. One was pulled out by force by a man who believed she was going to harm his wife. He had thought she was a man. Other friends have come out to find a someone standing with a police officer who then demands to see their ID. And I’ve certainly thought about how to best defend myself if someone gets violent. Everyone I know who is gender non-conforming has had those thoughts.

That’s why I try to avoid public bathrooms as much as possible. Believe me, if there is any way to get around it, I will. I suspect this is true of most trans, genderqueer, and gender non-conforming folks. For all the fears around us wanting to use the bathroom, the reality is that we’re far more afraid to use it than you know. I’ve learned not to drink water before I have to fly in order to avoid airport restrooms. I change my clothes before I get to my gym. I’ve walked back to my house rather than use a restaurant bathroom.

For the whole post you can click here: https://emilycheath.com/2016/04/27/on-restrooms-gender-and-fear/

But yes, please, let's forget about the personal safety of transgender folks, because the personal safety of those weirdos just isn't our concern.  How this could possibly have anything to do with states' rights is beyond me.  The federal government has been consistently empowered to deal with discrimination against marginalized communities.  The same argument was made about black people with regard to the civil rights act, and it didn't hold any water then, so why would it magically become an important legal principal now?

[Yip]

So tell me Kobuk, how is the following much different from what you are saying?

As I said before in the Segregation thread, this is an attempt at the President/Federal Gov't going too far. As is written in the Constitution, the powers not granted to the Federal Gov't should be relegated to the State. The States should determine their own bathroom policies for coloreds. Not the Federal Gov't.  In fact, I don't see this whole bathroom issue of segregating whites from coloreds as being a major issue right now when there's bigger and better issues that need taking care of in the U.S. (and/or world) during a Presidential election year. I care more about ... and a whole bunch of other issues that have a much higher priority than what bathroom a person has to use. 

I highly doubt Obama would have issued any such thing if it wasn't for states pushing for discriminatory bathroom policies.

[cause the rat]

It''s a federal law not to discriminate. States do not have the right to over ride that law.  Personally I think it would be harder on a female bodied individual going into a mens room.  Women are not turned on by seeing exposed genitalia. Men are.

[Rocco]

This is already starting a minor cultural revolt. I know of a large number of people who say they plan to homeschool at the start of the next school year. With this, I expect the feds to make a big push against homeschooling to try to force the social agenda. Check out what pre WWII Germany did to its and the Czechoslovakian education systems. Not that bad yet, but we're moving that way.

Obama didn't say third facilities for everyone to use, he is saying anyone, anywhere, no compromise. Imagine if a Republican President were to issue something along those lines, like anyone with a concealed or open carry license can carry anywhere, even if the property owner(s) want it a gun free zone.

10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The feds need to bug off big time. We need to return to the Constitution. If California wants trans in any facilities, while Alabama makes being trans or queer illegal (but not punished too severely, 8th Amendment violations are where the feds should step in.), let them! Don't like the law? Move to another state. Just about everyone will be happier because they will be surrounded by like minded people, and conflicts will go down. Fire and water can't mix.

[Natura Wolf]

Seriously, what is up in America, your the only country that has major debates, arguments, battles, etc, about bathrooms.

There are people under the LGB who are still abused, especially with this freedom of relgion - http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/mississippi-aclu/481869/
There are people unemployed without work or reason to feel alive - http://en.mercopress.com/2016/05/16/urban-unemployment-in-latin-america-to-increase-7-this-year-says-eclac
There are the homeless, that are still without a home, a feel of identity or access to half the things that the people who claim to have nothing have
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dwayne-paro/veterans-homelessin-ameri_b_9748278.html
http://newamericamedia.org/2016/04/old-and-homeless-aging-hard-and-fast-in-spokanes-street-life.php
http://www.vice.com/read/why-so-many-asylum-seekers-end-up-homeless

I'm sorry this isn't as important, for anyone who wish to say otherwise go to every abused blackman, unemployed person underpressure of losing everything, every homeless person on the street, every asylum seeker escaping from Syria, and tell them that their issues are nothing compared to your rights to take a dump in a bathroom of your choosing....*facepalms*

[T-Yoshi45]

Thank you Natura, you are a breath of fresh air on this issue As an american i feel like issues in general are prioritized horribly. Not to mention all the stuff revolving around this bathroom thing smells quite a bit of social engineering between the state funded travel bans, celebs canceling tours and what not...all over a toilet. Homeless veterans, unemployment and the national debt? Who cares, we're arguing about public restrooms! *Shakes head in disapproval*

[Kobuk]

Women are not turned on by seeing exposed genitalia. Men are.

Wow. Talk about stereotyping right there. 

This is already starting a minor cultural revolt.

And I have to wonder what's next in the future.  What next? Crossdresser's Rights? Seems to me Americans, or a certain percentage of them in the last year or two, seem to care more about sexual issues and rights than anything else around them. Gay rights, Gay marriage, Transgender bathroom rights. What's next? Is that all Americans care about? I would certainly hope not. I read about and hear about these issues from time to time and I get concerned about them just as much as the next person. But I really don't think transgender bathrooms are a high priority right now. I don't give a crap (No pun intended.) what bathroom people use. 

America must look like the laughingstock of the world right now. People in other countries must be scratching their heads and doing double takes thinking "What the hell is wrong with America?"
Natura Wolf is right. There's bigger and more important issues that deserve attention and take a higher priority than where a person goes to the bathroom:
Homelessness
Unemployment
Immigration
Syria
.......and so much more. But it seems like some Americans only care about their own self centered selfish needs on where to go to the bathroom, and all other issues they don't give a crap about. 

[Rocco]

To answer your what's next, polygamy and bestiality. Polygamy is already popping up here and there, but the bestiality is further in the future. Not sure when, but marriage with children will appear eventually too. The people in power are simply using divide and conquer.

Natura, fully agree. Lets take care of the existential threats before we start wishing we could kill each other. Example: North Korea could take out the US with one nuclear weapon if they use it as an EMP or with a cyber attack. Solution? Rebuild and separate our grid, shore up our cyber defenses, store back ups of equipment, and put in an offline, back up grid. But no one wants to talk about that for some reason.

[Kobuk]

To answer your what's next, polygamy and bestiality. Polygamy is already popping up here and there, but the bestiality is further in the future. Not sure when, but marriage with children will appear eventually too. The people in power are simply using divide and conquer.

Be a cold day in hell before bestiality is ever approved. And I'll make damn sure it never happens.  Anyway, this is an issue best left to the adult forum. Not here.

Natura, fully agree. Lets take care of the existential threats before we start wishing we could kill each other. Example: North Korea could take out the US with one nuclear weapon if they use it as an EMP or with a cyber attack. Solution? Rebuild and separate our grid, shore up our cyber defenses, store back ups of equipment, and put in an offline, back up grid. But no one wants to talk about that for some reason.

Not to derail this thread any further, but........do you know how laughable that is?  North Korea beat the U.S.? I don't think so.

[Rocco]

If you told someone a few decades ago that homosexuality would be brought into the spotlight and given protections, they would have agreed with you, a cold day in hell. I mentioned "it" only because it was relevant to the discussion, I do not plan to mention it again unless if necessary.

I said take out, not beat. No one can beat us, we'd nuke their country until it glows. There was a joint exercise between the US and Israel simulating cyber warfare. In the end of the simulation, America was about to invade Israel because it appeared that Israel was launching large cyber attacks against transportation, even though it was simulated Iran doing it. According to retired US Army General Wesley Clark, who participated in the simulation, "The United States realized how difficult if not impossible it is to ascertain the source of attack" We quite probably wouldn't know who attacked us.
On the EMP, we would go back to the 1800s technologically. Anything with a computer chip would be dead... forever. It is theorized that cars could die too.
Both of those destroy our electrical grid. It would take years, even decades to rebuild. Until then, you would have disease, mass death, starvation, fighting, the end of America. Tens or even over a hundred million dead.

Could North Korea defeat us? No, no one can. But they can sure destroy us.

[Kobuk]

I am going to "lay my cards on the table" so to speak and give my full opinions on transgender bathroom access plus a few other issues. My opinions are what they are. If you don't like them, then too bad. I don't feel I have to explain why I feel the way I do nor defend my actions to anybody.

Transgender Access:
a) TBA in schools for grades 1-9: No
b) TBA in schools for grades 10-12: Undecided. Leave it up to the school district/States to decide the issue.
c) TBA in colleges/universities: Undecided. Leave it up to individual campuses and/or States to decide.
d) TBA at public places like restaurants, ball parks, retail stores, etc.: Leave it up to individual businesses and/or States to decide.
e) Transgender locker/dressing rooms in schools for grades 1-12: No
f) Transgender locker/dressing rooms at colleges/universities: Same as Letter C.
g) Transgender locker/dressing rooms at retail stores or other public places: Same as Letter D.

There were at least 1-2 other items I wanted to mention, but I can't remember them. I'll add them in later.

[Kobuk]

P.S. - The only way transgendered or "all access" bathrooms could work that I can see is by making them the following. But granted, not every school, retail store, or other place may be able to do this based on sizing and construction issues.

a) No urinals.
b) No stalls with wall sections that don't reach to the ceiling and/or floor. Have the stall "completely enclosed" so to speak.
c) Have "panic buttons" in each stall and near the sink area.
d) Have the restrooms monitored with security cameras. The cameras wouldn't be watching the stalls since they're completely enclosed, but rather watching the open areas near/around the sinks or other spots.

[GrayWolf448]

easy solution to the transgender bathroom issue...
-no gender oriented bathrooms
-make no holes/gaps in the doors/walls (it's only a few more square feet of plywood...)
-add better locks
-add a mirror in each one
-public sinks (dont really need privacy when washing your hands)

P.S. - The only way transgendered or "all access" bathrooms could work that I can see is by making them the following. But granted, not every school, retail store, or other place may be able to do this based on sizing and construction issues.
a) No urinals.
b) No stalls with wall sections that don't reach to the ceiling and/or floor. Have the stall "completely enclosed" so to speak.
c) Have "panic buttons" in each stall and near the sink area.
d) Have the restrooms monitored with security cameras. The cameras wouldn't be watching the stalls since they're completely enclosed, but rather watching the open areas near/around the sinks or other spots.

could have more public/city bathrooms then (many people go into stores/restaurants just to use the bathroom, so this would take traffic away from them, and the city will likely be able to find room for new structures some where (iv seen many empty areas of land that no one builds on since it's city property)

also why even have locker rooms (in schools it's usually for their Physical education thing, but why not teach them about staying healthy instead of forcing them to do it and hate it)
locker rooms should be left there for sports teams (and usually they dont really care about seeing each other)

To answer your what's next, polygamy and bestiality. Polygamy is already popping up here and there, but the bestiality is further in the future. Not sure when, but marriage with children will appear eventually too. The people in power are simply using divide and conquer.
Be a cold day in hell before bestiality is ever approved. And I'll make damn sure it never happens.  Anyway, this is an issue best left to the adult forum. Not here.

polygamy isnt really a bad thing... so what if someone has multiple partners, not harming anyone... yes it may seem kinda strange and i'd like to stay away from that (since things can easily get confusing/stressful if 2 of the other partners dislike each other)

as for bestiality in almost all cases it's a bad thing and animals are abused but i do know there are people who actually consider their animal as a partner/family/as another person, and treat them as well as they would treat someone else. as long as the animal isn't taken advantage of, harmed, forced, raised/trained for that type of behavior ect. i dont really have an issue with it. marriage with an animal doesn't really make any sense though (until reading an animal's mind comes out keep the marriage thing away) though with the way people are, allowing people to be with their animal legally will cause more harm than good due to most people just taking advantage of animals (sadly at the expense of the good people)

now as for marrying a child now that is an actual issue. children's minds aren't at their fully maturity till they are around 20 i think (though i'd say they are advanced enough for consent/marriage around the age of 14-17 (depending on the individual)) doing anything with someone under that age would be taking advantage of someone who may not even be able to understand what is going on, and should not be allowed.

though as for the reason why argue about this stuff it that it should be an easy solution.. (though most people just dont like the idea of spending a little extra money to alter bathrooms)

[Shim]

Wow, it's been a while since I've posted here. Hi there. I have a transgender fiance. Maybe I could give some input.

First off, OR, there's a difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological. "Inner gender" isn't how it works.

2. The only people who are going to rape women and children were going to do that regardless of a sign on the bathroom. If anybody can direct me to a single time in history a transgendered person has ever been accused of harassment/rape/kidnapping in a bathroom, please link it to me. No? That's strange. It's almost as if it's never happened before.

3. No transgendered person who hasn't transitioned is going to change in front of other people of the gender that they identify with for obvious reasons. There are already stalls in most locker rooms and trans people are generally perfectly happy to use them for the sake of not making other people uncomfortable.

5. You've already shared a bathroom with a transgendered person. You didn't know and you lived.

What next? Crossdresser's Rights?

Kobuk, I seem to recall you making a thread a couple of years ago about being interested in cross-dressing but only if you could wear a zentai under the clothing for anonymity. How did that go?

[Ancusmitis]

Honestly, these discussions about transgender people, and omg crossdresser rights, as if crossdressing and transgender is something that cisgender and gender conforming people need to defend themselves against.  Full of vicious stereotypes against gender minorities.  Talking about transwomen exposing themselves in a bathroom?  What?  If they "expose" themselves they're outing themselves as trans and putting themselves in danger.  If you think that that's even slightly likely to happen then you have no idea what you are talking about.  Add better locks?  What are you so afraid of? 

Talking about the pushback against the right wing attacks against transpeople as a messed up priority.  It's the conservatives who have raised this issue.  It's the republican national convention that has declared war on transgender people.  Transpeople are just trying to live their lives, but their attempts to defend themselves are the bad priority, not the attacks against them.  Ridiculous.  Frankly, I'm tired of being on this forum.  I feel like it's not a welcoming place, and I can't waste my time on people who are more interested in spewing hate speech that finding out what's really going on.  I'm out. 

So much for the fandom being open and welcoming! 

[Kobuk]

Kobuk, I seem to recall you making a thread a couple of years ago about being interested in cross-dressing but only if you could wear a zentai under the clothing for anonymity. How did that go?

My interest is for Halloween and/or conventions like anime for example.

Animegao. Sometimes known as kigurumi. But the odds of doing this are almost impossible. The masks are hard to get and damn expensive. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animegao_kigurumi
http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu27yhBOdP1qic8pr.jpg

[Shim]

My interest is for Halloween and/or conventions like anime for example.

Animegao. Sometimes known as kigurumi. But the odds of doing this are almost impossible. The masks are hard to get and damn expensive. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animegao_kigurumi
http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu27yhBOdP1qic8pr.jpg

Right, and you have the privilege to make that decision. You get to take off the costume afterwards.

[GrayWolf448]

Add better locks?  What are you so afraid of? 

if you are referring to my post i meant better locks for the sake of not having to repair stalls all the time because some idiot kicked in the door for the lols (iv seen many broken stalls because some people just like breaking things)

iv got no worries about trans people, just i'd like to have stronger locks to feel more protected from anyone

[Yip]

easy solution to the transgender bathroom issue...
-no gender oriented bathrooms
-make no holes/gaps in the doors/walls (it's only a few more square feet of plywood...)
-add better locks
-add a mirror in each one
-public sinks (dont really need privacy when washing your hands)

And they'd only really need to do that sort of thing with new constructions. That's the way building codes generally work anyway.  And over time, the non-gender oriented bathrooms will get more and more common. I suspect that if and when we go this route, eventually people will wonder why we ever segregated the bathrooms to begin with.


For those saying "there are other more important issues", the thing is, this should have very easy solutions.  The ones that are turning it into a big deal are the ones that are actively trying to make things harder for trans and non-gender binary individuals.  Really, it's dumb to actively move to keep someone down and then complain when they fight to get up.

[Yip]

There are people under the LGB who are still abused, especially with this freedom of relgion

It's no different for trans people. They face just as much, and sometimes more, abuse and discrimination then LGB individuals.   I don't think think I've ever heard of someone being against LGB people while being completely okay with trans people.

[Old Rabbit]

We in the US seem to have a phobia over bathroom use.  It may be due
to religion or because the country had a wilderness beginning.

Men might go weeks without seeing a woman, and since some were
roughnecks it may have been necessary to seperate the genders to
give some protection for women trying to do their business, and
since women often wish to adjust their makeup they installed
mirrors and vanities.


Today though perhaps public toliets should be an open area instead of a closed room.
With well built stalls that have solid floor to ceiling walls. So people could feel safe/comfortable
using them. No matter what their gender happened to be. The sinks and mirrors
could be in the open area. The sinks could be in a long counter with seperations
to give each sink user a bit of privacy.

This would be economical and gender friendly for all.

[Natura Wolf]

There are people under the LGB who are still abused, especially with this freedom of relgion

It's no different for trans people. They face just as much, and sometimes more, abuse and discrimination then LGB individuals.   I don't think think I've ever heard of someone being against LGB people while being completely okay with trans people.

Your missing the point, The point is we are still addressing the issue of things like freedom of religious views, bigotry, heck even feminism and equality between men and women is still an issue.  How can you solve Transgender issues when the bigger issues of feminism, discrimination and unequality is still very strong in the world.  I don't think going to any woman and saying that gender is an illusion is going to make them feel better when there are women being paid less because they are women.  The point is, there are bigger issues, and until they are address you can't address this one.

2. The only people who are going to rape women and children were going to do that regardless of a sign on the bathroom. If anybody can direct me to a single time in history a transgendered person has ever been accused of harassment/rape/kidnapping in a bathroom, please link it to me. No? That's strange. It's almost as if it's never happened before.
5. You've already shared a bathroom with a transgendered person. You didn't know and you lived.

2. Eddie Izzard already made this joke - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_kvXeMv-2k <--Gotta love Izzard, also he does mention some weird transvestite, point is their are weird transvestites, hes an executive transvestite XD

5. I'm sure I have, and I'm sure it's not an issue, infact it's almost like these conversations don't need to happen because as you have said, you are not going to notice....*facepalms*

[Natura Wolf]

For those saying "there are other more important issues", the thing is, this should have very easy solutions.  The ones that are turning it into a big deal are the ones that are actively trying to make things harder for trans and non-gender binary individuals.  Really, it's dumb to actively move to keep someone down and then complain when they fight to get up.

I argue that you are equally just as bad as the people making a big deal, because I would argue you are the opposite extreme to the other argument.  As far as I see it, Shim is right, you probably don't even notice what toilet a transgender person is using.  In the eyes of the law non-gender doesn't exist, feminism exists, discrimination exists, bigitry, inequality, but non-gender does not.  Gender is as much real as the french language, which as you may know, has a process of naming something as male or female, even objects.  What this feels more like is trollers one one side that don't know better and then an over sensitive group on the other which know this but still respond to them.