ID chips for humans?

[Old Rabbit]

I am sure many would find chiping humans an invasion of their
privacy. Or just on personal principles.

But having medical info on a un responsive person who is dieing, might
save their lives. Id tags and bracelets can be lost in an accident. It would
also allow notification of next of kin. Asking a loved one to id a body can
be tramatic. Then it might not even be their loved one.

Like everything else there are pros and cons. I imagine it will happen
in the future though.. Chiped right after we are born.. I hope they find a
way to protect us from id theft first.

[Kobuk]

Hell NO.  IMO, the risks far outweigh the benefits. It's fine for science fiction like in the movie ALIENS, but in real life, No.

The only time I might say Yes is for chipping military soldiers. That way, we could more easily identify MIA, KIA, and "unknown" soldiers. It might also help with distinguishing "friend from foe" on the battlefield if the chips gave off a secure signal.

[Varg the wanderer]

"Oh look, a signal. It's encrypted, but I know it's not ours." *Tone to fire sounds*

RFID requires fairly close proximity to be useful anyway, so IFF would be pretty useless. As for identification, imagine you are hiding from the enemy and they break out an RFID scanner looking for signals...

Also, what about when you get out? Is the military going to perform surgery to remove all those chips, or will you just be permanently marked? More importantly, after dealing with government health care for those years, are you going to WANT them to do surgery to remove them?

No thank you. The military is dehumanizing enough.

[Rocco]

No chips for people PERIOD.
Imagine if the Nazis, Soviets, Chinese, Cubans, or North Koreans had/have chips. Depending on how they do it, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that they could track you with satellites or other ways. And just plain executing anyone without the chip for being an enemy of the state. Horrifying example of government capabilities: the NSA has the ability to connect to computers without the Internet. We've seen how the government abuses power.
As Benjamin Franklin said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Then there is British Lord Action (shortened version of his long name) "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
And President Lincoln "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we have destroyed ourselves."
And President Jackson "But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing."

No chips for ANYONE EVER. I don't care if it is a convicted terrorist, no PERIOD.

I obviously agree with Varg on the no for those in the military. And there is always DNA testing if it comes to it.

[Kobuk]

And what if we already have chips in our bodies? Who knows what could have happened to us once we were born? Or what if we're already tagged from what we eat or drink? There could've been tiny microscopic nanite bugs hidden in our food or drinks? 

[Loc]

... Do you seriously believe that is a possibility?

[Rocco]

And what if we already have chips in our bodies? Who knows what could have happened to us once we were born? Or what if we're already tagged from what we eat or drink? There could've been tiny microscopic nanite bugs hidden in our food or drinks? 

Chipped at birth? We would all know because a conspiracy that involves every single person wouldn't stay secret for long.
Let's say we do ingest chips. They would pass through our system every few days, thus the gov would need to spend massive amounts of time, money, and personnel to keep everyone tagged.

Loc, you talking to me or Kobuk?

[Loc]

I was talking to Kobuk. Sorry for any confusion.

[Rocco]

No problem

[Kobuk]

Loc: I was making a joke.

[greenfox]

I do think this could be valuable in certain situations (medical id, etc), but I think the key factor is whether or not it's voluntary.  It would be a huge violation of privacy and personal space to implant a microchip inside of a person without consent, and I'm sure it would be shot down immediately.  But, if a getting an ID chip was a voluntary choice that made daily activities more convenient, I think people would line up for it.  I actually know a person who (successfully) implanted a microchip in their own thumb that can unlock their phone, just because they thought it was cool.

[Old Rabbit]

I kind of thought it would be a privacy issue.. It would be nice if there was a way to gain the
advantages without the bad.. At this time there just isn't a way to protect one from chip snooping.
Not realisticly anyway. Society is always changing, and considering some of the crazy ideas
humans have, we could end up being a number for anyones scanner. I heard the other day
they are planning to use face recognition  instead of signatures or with credit cards.
Just look and blink. They say it's very secure. I imagine someone will find a way to
hack it.    Perhaps it should be  Look and stick your tounge out. That would fit most
peoples feeling I bet. 

As is it's getting hard to keep our identity secret even without being Chipped so to speak.
We can be sure the following companies would like it.
Insurance
money lenders
Banks
Police
government
and likely many more.

[Rocco]

And as we have seen from history, governments can't be trusted. Every single country has went through at least one bad period. Some have been downright evil. And governments love to increase power. Banks would offer services that use the chips like credit cards. Some people would start to store all their money on the chip. A hacker breaks in and steals your life savings. Or government goes to a paperless currency (which is already being discussed). If the government doesn't like what you say/do, your chip could have an "accident" where money is deducted or your chip is locked. They could keep you from buying and selling.

Not sure how many of you really like Star Wars, but I'll use an example. Slaves and prisoners have a tiny bomb implanted in their heart so if they try to escape, they die. What says the chips couldn't contain mercury that can be released remotely?

Even during WWII, many Germans believed anything or almost anything their government told them. If they ever did question a policy, they could be arrested or killed, so they just kept their head down while millions of innocents died. They also believed what the government told them that led up to the events. No matter how good or bad we think the current government is, we must always question everything.
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." Thomas Paine
"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent... The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

[cause the rat]

I can't help but laugh at all the conspiracy crap people will believe. It boils down to uneducated. Or people actually think they are more interesting than they are. 


 

[Rocco]

I'm sure the Jews thought they were safe too... tight up until the violence started.

And I have a 3.710 GPA in my Accounting program and literally just got back from receiving an award.

We must remain forever vigilant. Would you rather look back and say "Oh, guess it wasn't a problem after all" or say "They were right after all"?

[cause the rat]

Pure paranoia. Go for it.
The government has your SS number.
your driver's license
phone number, home and cel.
knows where you work, go to school and how much you spend or make there.
knows ever square inch outside your home.
knows where every room in your house is.
knows what car you own or ride in (if your still living at home)
has your complete education record.
work record
and any other record you might be listed on.
knows weather or not you vote.

And the government has taken advantage of all those things to make you obey. We all cower everyday over the fear of our iron fist government. Knowing that we can attract their attention just by flushing a toilet. What a joke.  I'm curious as to what your basing your fear on? What are they going to do?

[Rocco]

Thanks to the NSA they also have access to my phone records and computer history.

Actually, they have those records so they can know who potential trouble makers are.

I fear the government could do exactly what happened in Germany, the Soviet Union, North Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, Cambodia, Communist China, Ottoman Empire, Iraq, Imperial Japan, Zimbabwe, Uganda, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Pakistan, and pre Soviet Russia to name some.

Am I saying the government IS going to do that in my life time? No, but someday, all governments go bad. A house is only as strong as its foundation, and men are the foundation of government.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy--to be followed by a dictatorship." Alexander Tyler.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." President Kennedy.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." President Jefferson.

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." Edmund Burke.

[cause the rat]

So your fear base is crap.

Your first point is absolutely wrong. That author has no clue to how a 'treasury' is set up.  Your hand out mentality is based fully on current propaganda.

Your second statement?? Just how in the dark are you? You just nullified your first statement.

Your third statement. I'm not sure the context.

Your forth statement. So, in a country where there is free education. Where world history is even taught in religious schools. Who doesn't know history?

Here's a quote for ya,
"We have nothing to fear, but fear itself."

Come up with a better argument. Of just face the facts. Propaganda creates mistrust and fear. Or don't you know history?

[Old Rabbit]

I agree about having the people educated. Knowlege is power, conspiracy is usually based
on a lack of knowlege, guesswork and fear.

I am shocked each time I see how little many people know of history., much less our government.

As said above the government knows much of what and who we are. So chips would mostly
be a danger to our credit, insurability, and liabiity.

[Kobuk]

How's about we all calm down a bit, ok?

I don't see the government getting all totalitarian and dictatorial and marching through the streets rounding people up, etc., etc., etc.  When's the last time you were at a McDonalds and had to show your ID to buy a cheeseburger? 

If governments are becoming too powerful and taking away rights, etc., then it is because the people let it happen. We often don't get out and vote enough on what we do and don't want in our lives. We often don't "question" what our elected leaders are doing, and instead just listen to their words. We often believe too much when they say "We are doing this for the good of the country and/or your safety, etc., etc."


Simply put, people "don't think". Old Rabbit is right. Conspiracies are born because people lack knowledge.

[Khronae]

No. No and no. Did I mention, no?
A) The pervasive surveillance issue, that has already been looked at

And one that nobody here has mentioned:
B) They'll get pwned.

That's right. There's no way that this will get implemented in a way which is secure. And imagine the amount of potential utility one could get out of that, in terms of identity theft, for example - having a person's entire identity at your fingertips with a simple scanning device, in a similar vein to the magstripe and PIN skimmers of today, but far easier to execute (You wouldn't need to install it onto an ATM machine, for example - it'd just interact with the chip over whatever it used, probably RFID or NFC or the like ) and with a far higher information leak in the event of success. Just think of the idea of someone roaming through a crowd with such a device, sweeping up the identities of tens and hundreds of people for future abuse. There's probably oh so much more, that I just can't think of right now this second

Is that really something you want?


On a side note:

the NSA has the ability to connect to computers without the Internet.

That's not in any of the docs I've seen, certainly not the ANT catalogue or anything. Closest they'd come, according to what I've read is keyloggers and the like, with an RF exfiltration channel. Care to provide a reference?

[Rocco]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nsa-can-spy-on-offline-computers-wirelessly-expert-jacob-applebaum-says/

[Kobuk]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nsa-can-spy-on-offline-computers-wirelessly-expert-jacob-applebaum-says/

Another slide showcased a futuristic-sounding device described as a "portable continuous wave generator," a remote controlled device which - when paired with tiny electronic implants - can bounce invisible waves of energy off keyboards and monitors to see what is being typed even if the target device isn't connected to the Internet.

I've usually been fond of saying that Science fiction has a tendency of becoming science FACT.  But the above is just a bit too far fetched. 

Getting back to the issue at hand.........

Why not ID chips at least for medical reasons, and helping to identify unknown soldiers?

[cause the rat]

Thanks for the link Rocco, but I know about this ten or more years ago. Old news. What you don't want to know is they wont use this. That's right. They wont use this. I know, bummer. One less thing to be afraid of.

Totally agree about identity theft issues with implanted chips. Or even the possibility of guilty parties used them to find and kill informants. Second or third party security issues. Hackers. Just how much data should each chip hold. I really don't want to walk into Walmart.  Have some automated TV call my name out. Then tell me about deals based on my last purchase.

[Rocco]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nsa-can-spy-on-offline-computers-wirelessly-expert-jacob-applebaum-says/

Another slide showcased a futuristic-sounding device described as a "portable continuous wave generator," a remote controlled device which - when paired with tiny electronic implants - can bounce invisible waves of energy off keyboards and monitors to see what is being typed even if the target device isn't connected to the Internet.

I've usually been fond of saying that Science fiction has a tendency of becoming science FACT.  But the above is just a bit too far fetched. 

How about lasers that allow you to listen through windows? You yourself said that you believe science fiction has a tendency to become science fact. If we went back 20 years, and told people about stealth aircraft, drones, laser weapons (they are being developed/deployed), railguns (well into development), or micro chipping people, what do you think they would say?

Cause, how do you know they won't/don't use it? Have you heard of police departments around the nation and their abuse of Stingray? Or how about the NSA spying on everything they can. And don't claim national security for the NSA. According to a 2013 article by the Huffington Post, there have been about 54 threats stopped (and threats aren't defined). It goes on to say only 13 had some nexus to the US. And according to a 2013 article by NBC, there have been 0 attacks stopped.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/nsa-attacks-thwarted_n_4148811.html
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/nsa-program-stopped-no-terror-attacks-says-white-house-panel-f2D11783588

Cause, let's take a step back for a minute. If you wanted to control people, wouldn't you want to know what they are thinking (NSA spying helps with that and can identify threats to your regime), disarm them so they can't resist you effectively (Gun control. Various politicians have said they would take them all. Various dictators do that before they start being pure evil.), and make them economically dependent on you? If you could go cashless, with chips for example, you could switch someone's chip off and they would have no way to access money.
Is it possible that I could be wrong? Of course it is, either one of us could look back someday and say "I was right". You take a risk either way. I could look back someday and say "Oops. That would have made life easier, and it wasn't a problem after all." Or you could someday look back and say "Gee, he was right. It was evil in disguise." Which would you prefer to say?