ID chips for humans?

[Kobuk]

The government has your SS number.
your driver's license
phone number, home and cel.
knows where you work, go to school and how much you spend or make there.
knows ever square inch outside your home.
knows where every room in your house is.
knows what car you own or ride in (if your still living at home)
has your complete education record.
work record
and any other record you might be listed on.
knows weather or not you vote.

No matter what a person does or where they go in life, somebody, somewhere, will know what you did. And all of this has been happening for decades and centuries. Even marriages in the medeival/rennaissance period were recorded for example. There's always going to be some record of you somewhere which is used/looked at......or abused......by someone. In this day and age of 21st century technology, there's no getting around it or avoiding it.

ID chips are no different. Is it a record of you? Yes.
Will it be used/looked at by somebody? Yes.
Will it be abused by somebody? Probably.

ID chips IMO are no different than the proverbial credit card, bank statement, or personal email. As long as there is a record of you somewhere, there will always exist the possibility of abuse, whether it be from individuals, groups, companies, corporations, or the government.

I have my concerns and doubts about ID chips as much as the next person. But I think we're getting a bit too far ahead of ourselves and putting the cart before the horse so to speak when it comes to paranoia and conspiracies. ID chips haven't happened yet......except for pets. Why worry about something that hasn't been developed or happened yet to humans? Kinda pointless, IMO.    ID chips are no different than the things I quoted above. Will there come a time when humans are chipped? Maybe. But that time isn't now. So why worry?

[Rocco]

Having records is necessary to an extent. But being able to deny access to money or track you actively outweighs the benefits of using the chips.

Looking ahead is good. Looking ahead is a must when it is right around the corner.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98077&page=1

[Kobuk]

Having records is necessary to an extent. But being able to deny access to money or track you actively outweighs the benefits of using the chips.

Looking ahead is good. Looking ahead is a must when it is right around the corner.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98077&page=1

"Any technology of this kind is easily abusive of personal privacy,"

Same thing with credit cards, smartphones, computers, etc.  What's the difference?

ID chipping of humans is still a long, long way from happening.......if it ever does. It's only in the experimental stage right now. It may take many more years or decades to get through medical, scientific, economical, political, and ethical hurdles. And even if those hurdles are met, there's no guarentee that human ID chipping will still happen.

[Rocco]

Credit card: strictly for monetary use, but is not a forced replacement of cash if turned off, you can still use cash. Smartphone: stupid device. I don't have one and don't plan to get one. Computer: is needed in our time, but can be minimally used.
And with any of those, you can easily just throw it away. Removal of a chip would be much more difficult.

So what if it is a while away? Hitler gassing Jews didn't happen overnight. It took time to acclimate the people to the coming horrors. Not enough people spoke out while their country was salvageable.

Am I saying this government WILL do that? No. But I am saying that America will someday go the road of every other nation in history, collapse and/or an authoritarian government.

Unless if you think there is something special about America that would prevent us from doing what every other nation has done.

[Khronae]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nsa-can-spy-on-offline-computers-wirelessly-expert-jacob-applebaum-says/

What you referred to was a trick called Van Eck phreaking, by the sounds of it. Hardly news, given that that particular technique was publicly released in 1985.

One of the slides described how the NSA can plant malicious software onto Apple Inc.'s iPhone

Given, say, that remote JB exploits are in the hands of the likes of Zerodium, this is hardly implausible, and equally hardly revolutionary.

Another slide showcased a futuristic-sounding device described as a "portable continuous wave generator," a remote controlled device which - when paired with tiny electronic implants - can bounce invisible waves of energy off keyboards and monitors to see what is being typed even if the target device isn't connected to the Internet.

So the RF PWM exfil channels that I referred to before - hardware keyloggers which get data out over RF. Big whoop.

To be honest, most of what you see from the NSA is hardly ground-breaking conceptually - though I'm sure the implementation is quite a bit more interesting

Ahhh, I misread; VEP doesn't seem to be involved, just the RF exfiltration with hardware implants - like keyloggers, USB interceptors, and all that good stuff

[cause the rat]

..........
Cause, how do you know they won't/don't use it? Have you heard of police departments around the nation and their abuse of Stingray? Or how about the NSA spying on everything they can. And don't claim national security for the NSA. According to a 2013 article by the Huffington Post, there have been about 54 threats stopped (and threats aren't defined). It goes on to say only 13 had some nexus to the US. And according to a 2013 article by NBC, there have been 0 attacks stopped.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/nsa-attacks-thwarted_n_4148811.html
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/nsa-program-stopped-no-terror-attacks-says-white-house-panel-f2D11783588

Cause, let's take a step back for a minute. If you wanted to control people, wouldn't you want to know what they are thinking (NSA spying helps with that and can identify threats to your regime), disarm them so they can't resist you effectively (Gun control. Various politicians have said they would take them all. Various dictators do that before they start being pure evil.), and make them economically dependent on you? If you could go cashless, with chips for example, you could switch someone's chip off and they would have no way to access money.
Is it possible that I could be wrong? Of course it is, either one of us could look back someday and say "I was right". You take a risk either way. I could look back someday and say "Oops. That would have made life easier, and it wasn't a problem after all." Or you could someday look back and say "Gee, he was right. It was evil in disguise." Which would you prefer to say?

First off the Huffington Post is a propaganda paper. Always has been. Secondly is the truth behind the NRA's fight against gun control. The NRA made a lifetime promise to it's members to replace stolen firearms. If your gun is stolen they will replace it. They made this promise knowing most if it's members didn't have to register their guns. No registration, no proof of ownership. If registration of all guns becomes mandatory the NRA as an organization is looking to loose millions. So they started the propaganda machine.

The possibility of you being wrong is more based on the possibility you'r a victim of propaganda. Or, as you put it, 'history'.  And before you get history wrong again. Hitler made his intentions against the Jews very clear from the start. It's how far he took it that caught even the German people by surprise. 

[T-Yoshi45]

I'm generally against anything big government and chipping humans is no exception cause like certain gun laws it just seems like the thin end of the wedge. Absolutely what is there to stop the particularly unscrupulous from using it to just track down people who simply outspoken against them and silence them?

But on the note of history and Hitler, and while yes his campaign was outright antisemitic, if you look back he technically played it by the rulebook in the beginning as a mere political party, campaigning, winning over the people, and earning seats in the reichstag leading up to him becoming the tyrant he was and one thing he did accomplish before that was full gun registry of Germany. While it might not have been the big factor in his ascent to power, having an unarmed public and disarming your opponents sure makes it easier to walk all over them.

[Rocco]

But on the note of history and Hitler, and while yes his campaign was outright antisemitic, if you look back he technically played it by the rulebook in the beginning as a mere political party, campaigning, winning over the people, and earning seats in the reichstag leading up to him becoming the tyrant he was and one thing he did accomplish before that was full gun registry of Germany. While it might not have been the big factor in his ascent to power, having an unarmed public and disarming your opponents sure makes it easier to walk all over them.

One of the highest priorities for tyrants is disarming the people. Just ask the Germans, Soviets, etc.

Now, anyone correct if I'm wrong.
The 1st Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
They are trying to go after the 1st here: http://www.newsweek.com/should-climate-change-deniers-be-prosecuted-378652
The 2nd Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Assault on 2nd here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/01/08/the-new-target-for-gun-bans-all-semiautomatic-weapons/
Intent to ban them all here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/03/26/gun-control-misses-mark-sen-feinstein-shoots-off-mouth-hits-foot/#54463dcd30f9     Upon seeing her Clinton gun ban enacted in 1994, she (Diane Feinstein) said: “If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . ‘Mr. and Mrs. America, turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it.”
3rd:
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Currently untouched.
4th:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Ever head of civil asset forfeiture?  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/10/report-in-lean-times-police-start-taking-a-lot-more-stuff-from-people/
And we all know about the NSA.
5th
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
I haven't heard anything yet.
6th
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Violated in law, but not actual practice yet. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/22/ndaa-indefinite-detention_n_5373005.html
7th
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Still upheld.
8th
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Some say solitary confinement or execution is cruel or unusual. I disagree (at the current time). Still upheld.
9th
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Upheld.
10th
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The Federal government should NOT be telling states what to or not to do for the most part. If state A wants legal drugs, but state B doesn't fine. If state A wants same sex marriage, and state B doesn't fine. This is the one trampled the most.


I'll stick to just the first 10 Amendments because I need to get to class. 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 10th are either under attack or trampled. Now you tell me, why should I trust the government?

[Kobuk]

Last time I checked, I thought this thread was about ID chips? How the hell did it get so far off topic about Hitler, Soviets, etc., etc.? 

[Rocco]

One thing leads to another. If the government hadn't been making these bad moves that can help set up a rise for a dictator, I might be open to the idea of chips. However, this government has proved they can't be trusted, and someday all countries fall and/or go authoritarian. It could happen tomorrow, or centuries from now, but it will happen. I want to make it as hard as possible for evil to rise. I would rather be too cautious than not cautious enough.

[Kobuk]

Rocco, I think you're getting way too far worried about nothing. As I said, you're putting the cart before the horse so to speak. 

[Rocco]

Go back and take a look. The 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 10th amendments are under attack in various ways.

Do you deny that in authoritarian countries, there is no right to free speech, no right to keep and bear arms, and unreasonable search & seizures are normal?

If the Constitution was still upheld, I wouldn't have to be worried.

[Varg the wanderer]

5th amendment---> See Patriot Act I and II

[T-Yoshi45]

Ok Rocco...did I type the same post you read? I said literally nothing saying to trust the government. I said i was clearly against ID chipping people and was against blind trust of the government. For Kobuk. If anything i put up the info about Hitler as an example, some context if you will. A mere example from history.

P.S. not trying to make anyone look stupid, just trying to clear the air a bit.

[Kobuk]

Considering the fact that we're all anthro furries, how do we know the vet didn't put chips in us? If pets are tagged, what about anthro furries? 








(Yes, I'm making a joke here.)

[T-Yoshi45]

Well the lightening of the mood is much appreciated Kobuk, thank ya much

[Rocco]

Well the lightening of the mood is much appreciated Kobuk, thank ya much

I can agree to that.

We can go back and forth for days, but I doubt any of us will change our mind. Shall we all agree to disagree and call it over?

[Kobuk]

Fine. But my other questions still weren't answered. Wouldn't ID chips still be fine for medical emergencies and/or identifying unknown military soldiers?

[Rocco]

No. Just as governments and people do with other stuff, it would slowly expand. Hitler didn't just pop up and start killing Jews immediately.

As Varg said earlier, the enemy could use scanners to locate our forces. If we need to identify a body, we can use DNA, dental records, or dog tags (which I hear are sewed into some boots).

[Kobuk]

1. DNA testing is too slow. Dog tags in boots? And what if a soldier steps on a land mine. Then what?

2. Imagine you are being rushed to the hospital. You're having trouble breathing and trying to talk. What other way are the medical staff going to do to get your medical records in order to treat you and give you the best possible care? They need as much info. about you as fast as possible so they can give the best and quickest treatment to save your life. Having an ID chip with your medical info. readily available would be a lifesaver.

[Varg the wanderer]

1. DNA testing is too slow. Dog tags in boots? And what if a soldier steps on a land mine. Then what?

One tag around your neck, one on the lace of your boot near the toe. Your blood type is written in permanent marker on your helmet, boots, inside your pants, etc. I never wore my tags out of training though, they were considered an engine ingestion hazard on the flight line. And if you get sucked down an intake, they won't be worried about your blood type or id-ing you. They'll know who you are and be too busy looking for a shovel and plastic bags to clean you off the tarmac with. Your name is on everything from your blouse, helmet, pants, skivvi shirt, to your underwear. If you're dead, DNA testing is fast enough. Nobody runs DNA except to ID bodies.

2. Imagine you are being rushed to the hospital. You're having trouble breathing and trying to talk. What other way are the medical staff going to do to get your medical records in order to treat you and give you the best possible care? They need as much info. about you as fast as possible so they can give the best and quickest treatment to save your life. Having an ID chip with your medical info. readily available would be a lifesaver.

They actually have something like this. It's a bracelet or necklace you wear that has an alert symbol on it and a description of what they need to know. Some are RFID, too, so they can just scan them and get your whole history. A great thing for those who need it. The difference? You can take the bracelet or necklace off if you want too.

[Kobuk]

The difference? You can take the bracelet or necklace off if you want too.

And if the person has something happen to them and isn't wearing the bracelet, then what? Or if the bracelet gets lost?




Kinda ironic that we complain about chipping people, but we don't lift a finger and complain about chipping our pets.

[Rocco]

2. Imagine you are being rushed to the hospital. You're having trouble breathing and trying to talk. What other way are the medical staff going to do to get your medical records in order to treat you and give you the best possible care? They need as much info. about you as fast as possible so they can give the best and quickest treatment to save your life. Having an ID chip with your medical info. readily available would be a lifesaver.

They have basic procedures they perform as they assess someone. And, being medical professionals, they have a talent for guessing illness/injury. Perfect? No. And almost everyone caries some sort of ID, so that starts the identification process. And let's say that chips become standard issue. What about when the chip or reader is down? They'll be used to the easy way and you have an even worse chance of surviving.

[Varg the wanderer]

The difference? You can take the bracelet or necklace off if you want too.

And if the person has something happen to them and isn't wearing the bracelet, then what? Or if the bracelet gets lost?




Kinda ironic that we complain about chipping people, but we don't lift a finger and complain about chipping our pets.

That would be their choice then. Most people I know wear it anytime they arn't in bed :p

I own my dog. I am not a "pet parent"; a term used by people too weak or cowardly to face life's truths. I am a pet owner. I can do whatever I deem necessary to take care of her. If that means chipping her whether she wants it or not, then so be it. Plain and simple: she doesn't have a say.

But then again, she can't articulate to others who I am. She can't say "I'm lost. I need my master (or "they guy who feeds me and rubs my belly and doesn't let me chase squirrels in traffic"), his name is X and we live at 123 Cherry Lane, Bakerville, JK 98765. Can you please call him at (123) 867-5309 and ask him to come get my stinky tail out of dodge?" She has a collar with all that information on it, but she also loves to run around in the brush, and he head isn't much bigger than her neck (she's fairly aerodynamic) so she can slip out of her collar if it gets snagged unless I'm strict on the "two finger" rule. But I like that she can slip out. Collarless is better than choked to death. Yet now we're back at being unable to articulate.

So I had her chipped. She enjoys the comfort of a collar that isn't overly snug, and I enjoy the comfort of knowing if she does get lost someone can understand from her what she can't tell them.

Freedom? She doesn't care. She has none. She enjoys what liberties I give her when I give them, and tolerates when I with hold.

[Old Rabbit]

Perhaps these credit cards with chips might well be carried in a shielded
case. After all who knows what all they have on them.