War with North Korea?

[Kobuk]

Tensions have certainly heated up in the last few days and weeks between the U.S. and North Korea. Mostly because of NK and it's nuclear weapons manufacturing as well as it's planned long range missile tests.
Normally, some people would just call this "sabre rattling" between the two countries. But in the last several days, the sabre rattling and tough talk has escalated to the point where America, South Korea, and North Korea are increasing their defense postures and military training exercises.
So what are your thoughts? Will there be war? Will NK threaten the U.S. and/or it's allies with nuclear weapons?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/26/asia/north-korea-chance-of-war/index.html

[cause the rat]

NK is a bigger threat to those around them than they are the US. KN is seriously lacking in modern warfare equipment and training. China, South K and Japan are more than enough to put them in check.  This doesn't account for trump being a mad man with a gun. He is the only week link in an otherwise intelligent chain.

[Loc]

If there is, it'll be Trump starting it. I just hope the UK doesn't get drawn into his crazy as crap plans.

[Old Rabbit]

I am undecided since I only know whats in the news, and since Trump
lies all the time we can't tell by what he says. We can hope China will
stop the NK fat man from causing ruin and devistation. to his self and
the region.

I think the best thing is to develope a good missile defense. One that
can stop virtually any use of them. Or at least to the point an attacker
would never know how effective an attack would be. Because nukes
are a growing fact of life in other countries. The weapon of choice for
any leader wanting to be a big shot.

One day some terrorist is going to get their dirty hands on a nuke, and
they don't need a missile. Just a ship to dock at a large coastal city.
At one time there was talk of puting radiation detectors in Cell Phones
so they could detect radioactive material... I never heard if it was ever
done. But seems like a good idea.

To speculate I think the NK leader would have to be suicidal to start
a war expecially one with nukes. It would mean the end of him even if
he hid in a fraidy hole somewhere. If nukes are on the table, then so are
neutron bombs that can iradicat life over large areas. Even those under
ground. So his 2 million man army wouldn't last long. They are more
efficent at killing than the old atomic blasting kind. Not counting fuel air
explosives that can use up breathable air long enough to kill or collapse
underground facilities.

I hope it doesn't come to war, no one wins, and if nukes are used radioactive
dust could circle the world.and Korea will be a mess with millions dead.. If
China joins then all bets are off. Even a war without nukes could kill millions.
in Korea.

[Rocket T. Coyote]

NK has been preparing for war for 70 years now. Much of their equipment is outmoded cold war surplus, but their 200 artillery pieces could level Seoul in a day or so. It has been said that some of the missiles in their big military parades are actually made of cardboard.

China appears to be taking strides in keeping NK in check. Several ships loaded with NK coal were sent back. China is buying US coal.

[Varg the wanderer]

While that pudgy, alcoholic dictator is crazy, I don't think his Generals are. It wouldn't surprise me if they are the ones sabotaging the missile tests. They know they would get paved for trying anything, and while NK keeps rattling sabers in the hopes for more money, I don't foresee anyone giving it to them this time.


But like I said: he's crazy. If he gets one off the ground with a warhead, look out.

[Kobuk]

North Korea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea

North Korean People's Army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People%27s_Army

North Korean Ground Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People%27s_Army_Ground_Force

North Korean Naval Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People%27s_Navy

North Korea Air Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People%27s_Army_Air_Force

North Korean Strategic Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People%27s_Army_Strategic_Force

North Korean Red Guards Militia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker-Peasant_Red_Guards

Korean Demilitarised Zone
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone


While it is true that most of NK's military equipment is old and vintage, they are slowly trying to modernise whenever and however they can by purchasing Chinese and Russian arms from time to time.
If we did go to war with NK, I don't think we'd have much to fear from their Air Force and their Navy. We could easily take those out. What would concern me is the following:
a) Huge amount of land forces, both equipment and personnel. Especially the personnel.
b) Huge amount of anti-aircraft surface-to-air missile systems.
c) Maybe we might beat NK militarily, but we may never be able to win the "hearts and minds" of the North Korean people. There persists a "cult of personality" in NK and the people worshipping their leaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_cult_of_personality
This cult of personality is so strong, that people would be willing to lay down their lives at a moment's notice for their leader. We could go in to NK and think we were liberating a people from a tyranical leader, but we'd be wrong. Kim has the populace so brainwashed that they'd do, say, and believe anything for him. You cannot win against that.

[Holt5]

c) Maybe we might beat NK militarily, but we may never be able to win the "hearts and minds" of the North Korean people. There persists a "cult of personality" in NK and the people worshipping their leaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_cult_of_personality
This cult of personality is so strong, that people would be willing to lay down their lives at a moment's notice for their leader. We could go in to NK and think we were liberating a people from a tyranical leader, but we'd be wrong. Kim has the populace so brainwashed that they'd do, say, and believe anything for him. You cannot win against that.

I think that's what Hiroshima and Nagasaki defeated in WWII. The Japanese were willing to fight and die for their emperor, but upon seeing the devastation of just those two bombs, even that mentality had to register a reality check. Their leader knew that if we were faced with either jumping onto their homeland or completely destroying it piece-by-piece from afar, we would have the latter option at any given time. We wouldn't have to put a single soldier on Japanese soil in order to win the war if it became that bitter - hence the surrender. NK would likely be the same story in my opinion.

If they as a nation want to bear the punishment they're asking for, a time may come where the most reasonable rebuttal will be to show them what that actually means.

[Old Rabbit]

China is afraid that huge numbers of N koreans fleeing into
China with a war. Not S koreans, but N Koreans. So it's likely
many would rather leave than die. Of course after the defeat
of the military it's likely some percentage of the people would
try to fight on.


The trouble with people like the NK leader is they judge others
by them selves.  He probably doesn't let any one who might a
bullet or knife close to him.

A army parade of perhaps a 100,000 men marches past and
not a bullet for any of them. 

[Kobuk]

c) Maybe we might beat NK militarily, but we may never be able to win the "hearts and minds" of the North Korean people. There persists a "cult of personality" in NK and the people worshipping their leaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_cult_of_personality
This cult of personality is so strong, that people would be willing to lay down their lives at a moment's notice for their leader. We could go in to NK and think we were liberating a people from a tyranical leader, but we'd be wrong. Kim has the populace so brainwashed that they'd do, say, and believe anything for him. You cannot win against that.

I think that's what Hiroshima and Nagasaki defeated in WWII. The Japanese were willing to fight and die for their emperor, but upon seeing the devastation of just those two bombs, even that mentality had to register a reality check. Their leader knew that if we were faced with either jumping onto their homeland or completely destroying it piece-by-piece from afar, we would have the latter option at any given time. We wouldn't have to put a single soldier on Japanese soil in order to win the war if it became that bitter - hence the surrender. NK would likely be the same story in my opinion.

If they as a nation want to bear the punishment they're asking for, a time may come where the most reasonable rebuttal will be to show them what that actually means.

I gather from the tone of your post that you are saying that if we want to beat any hardcore dictatorial leader, then we should use nuclear weapons (and/or other mass destructive means) to demoralise their people and leader?

[Holt5]

I gather from the tone of your post that you are saying that if we want to beat any hardcore dictatorial leader, then we should use nuclear weapons (and/or other mass destructive means) to demoralise their people and leader?

I'm certainly open to other options - but really, what other options would there be in such a situation? One of those is not landing our own people in an entirely hostile country without massive reinforcing supply lines and firepower. If the vast majority of the country is dead set against the U.S. a land invasion would essentially be accomplishing the same thing as a nuclear weapon anyway - only there would be more casualties added to the list from our own side. MAD might be an inhibitor if NK had allies, but that doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon.

I fear it is only that level of mass devastation that can make it through the psychology that a lot of such people are brainwashed with. But with that said, there's no guarantee that we enter a war that bitter. All I know is that if they were to get missiles hitting American ground I would want to ensure that they never do it again. If I don't need to put my own people's lives at risk in doing so, returning missiles would be an option.

[Old Rabbit]

The following is more about the history of the Korean problem
than if we get into war. Kind of felt a history lesson might be
helpful to the younger members.

We never should have been in Korea to begin with. We have the fear
of communism to thank for it. People who ran our government almost
70 years ago put us there. Now we have to protect a small nation in
the far east. Possibly to start a war that could kill millions. Left alone
the country of Korea would likely be as China and Vietnam is today.
With a growing economy.

If Russia had attended the UN security council when the vote to send
UN troops to Korea was made. It's likely we wouldn't have ever been
in Korea to begin with. It was Truman, and other government leaders
who were scared to death that communism was going take over the
world. To destroy capitalism, and private enterprise. We know who
would worry. The rich guys of course. They sent our young men to
Korea to protect their wallets. The same could be said about Vietnam.

Oh yes the Russians haven't missed a security council meeting since.

We like to think that those two police actions were to help the people
of those countries, but it likely caused more death and suffering than
anything else. We have president LBJ to thank for continuing the
Vietnam war. Yes a democrat. There is a conspiracy theory that
president Kennedy was killed to keep us in the Vietnam war. Both
parties have been responsible for sending our soldiers to war.

We really don't know how many N koreans would continue to fight.
At the end of ww2 we were faced with the invasion of Japan. It was
estimated we might loose a considerable number of soldiers in the
process.

Turns out the red army of Japan was at the bottom of the war. They
wanted to continue, but the emperor of Japan said no, and the people
laid down their arms.

The Russians worked to keep Japans wish to surrender quiet hoping to
put troops into northern Japan.  If they had we would have had a split
Japan like Korea. It's likely the second A bomb wouldn't have been
dropped if it wasn't for the Russian interference. They probably wanted
to see how destructive the bomb really was.

[Rocket T. Coyote]

Some clairvoyant predicted WW3 starts today. Given the cyber attacks, it is likely ongoing.