keep warnings private?

[Ante]

I dunno. I haven't been around much lately, and I'm noticing a lot of warning marks. Now, the first thing I think of when I see one of those is "I wonder what they did". Nobody would tell me, or any other member, most likely, but we'd wonder, and it could affect our judgement of people. What I'm asking is, why do anybody besides the staff and the person who did something wrong need to know that they did something wrong? It'll only affect people's judgement, and they might not act as nicely toward them as they normally would. It might be good to keep those more private to avoid unfair judgement by other members.

[Benjamin]

Mystery is such a wonderful thing, isn't it?
 
Ultimately, it's up to you how you choose to behave with such people, just as those people made choices in behavior that led them to receive such "marks" on their record here.
 
Benjamin

[Savaaha]

Seeing the marks lets the other members know the person has broken rules, when they see more than one they know that person has gone too far in thier rule breaking and may be on the road to being banned. If/when the person is banned then they know the person didnt just get banned in one swift moment they were given chances to correct thier behavior and didnt.

Only a few things warrent banning in one hit and usually that honor is given to trolls/spammers and the like.

[Varg the wanderer]

Play with a sword your bound to get scars...

[Mazz]

Quote (Varg the wanderer @ Aug. 27 2006, 2:58 am)

Play with a sword your bound to get scars...

Varg said it well. As did my fellow staff.

If you play on the rules and break the rules you get marked. If those marks are kept invisible the bans look like they were just given out at the slip of the finger.

You don't need to be worried about getting a mark if you follow our rules.. and honestly, it is NOT hard to fallow our rules.

[Serra Belvoule]

It's part of an old way of teaching. By example.
I mean, how else you'd know you really get "punished" for breaking the rules?

[Prince Karo]

I agree that the marks are a good idea... though if the person has gone a really long time without any more rule violations, (a year, for example) I feel that the marks should be removed to give them a clean start...

[Mazz]

Quote (Prince Karo @ Aug. 28 2006, 8:30 pm)

I agree that the marks are a good idea... though if the person has gone a really long time without any more rule violations, (a year, for example) I feel that the marks should be removed to give them a clean start...

that use to be the rule.. though some members made such bad choices that we made them permanent, they however CAN ask for a review of the mark after 1 FULL YEAR and if the staff votes yes the mark can be removed, the same goes for bans in some cases. However trolls don't get that option.

[Kobuk]

Excuse me a sec, but I'd like to add my .02 cents. *drops 2 cents in the jar*

Quote

that use to be the rule.. though some members made such bad choices that we made them permanent, they however CAN ask for a review of the mark after 1 FULL YEAR and if the staff votes yes the mark can be removed, the same goes for bans in some cases. However trolls don't get that option.

I'm a little confused. IIRC from many months ago, I'm pretty sure WS wrote a post where he mentioned the following:

First offense: One x and/or a verbal or PM warning.
Second offense: Offender recieves a second x and is banned for about a week or month.
Third offense: Offender recieves a third x and is permanently banned.

Unfortuneately, I can't seem to locate the thread/post that WS may have mentioned this stuff in.

Quote

However trolls don't get that option.

Actually, trolls do have ONE option. The only option they get is a quick trip to the Furtopian dungeons to meet our pet monster named Harvey.

[Savaaha]

Each case is handled depending on the offense and the offenders additude. Disrespecting a staff member can lead to further marks and/or a faster or longer ban.

[Kattywampus]

It's the big, red, freakin' A, that's what it is.
(if you don't know what in the heck I'm talking about, read The Scarlet Letter)

I would like to say that "Seeing the marks lets the other members know the person has broken rules, when they see more than one they know that person has gone too far in thier rule breaking and may be on the road to being banned. If/when the person is banned then they know the person didnt just get banned in one swift moment they were given chances to correct thier behavior and didnt." is a load.  You know why?  Because a lot of times, people didn't realize they were breaking rules and got a big X slapped on 'em.  So to sit up here and say that it's okay to make them look like they did something wrong is kinda jacked up.  
Stop deleting the threads where people get in trouble, and you won't have as many people with X's walking around looking like criminals.

So Serra, when you say "t's part of an old way of teaching. By example.
I mean, how else you'd know you really get "punished" for breaking the rules?"  You might be able to learn by the ban that comes with the X.  But meanwhile, no one else on the forum knows what you did, so the guy that let out a few too many hells and damns is lumped with the guy that cussed out a mod over his posting porn in the general forum.

You'll never know whether or not I'm making anything up, telling the truth, or what--because everything gets *deleted*.

Anyway, Ante is right.  I 100% agree with what he wrote here.

[Savaaha]

For starters,Katty they dont get a warning mark UNTIL AFTER they have recieved a verbal warning(sometimes even up to 3 verbals). Unless the offense is serious and the offender is a long time member and should know the rules.

We do not just slap a mark on them. We do give them chances before the mark is applied.

[Kattywampus]

Quote (Savaaha @ Sep. 07 2006, 8:19 am)

For starters,Katty they dont get a warning mark UNTIL AFTER they have recieved a verbal warning(sometimes even up to 3 verbals). Unless the offense is serious and the offender is a long time member and should know the rules. We do not just slap a mark on them. We do give them chances before the mark is applied.

"Not I," said the cat.

Besides, it really LOOKS like y'all are slapping scarlet letters on people, 'cause no one knows what in the heck is going on, regardless of whether or not that is the case.

Anyway, I've said what I need to say.  I'd say more, but my X count might go up.

[Savaaha]

Quote

Unless the offense is serious and the offender is a long time member and should know the rules.

[WhiteShepherd]

I know it's a sore spot Katty but people that got marks were told the reason why personaly including yourself.  It's there to remind members that they seriously crossed the line.  Yes sometimes good members do things they don't mean too and we're stuck trying to figure out why.  We have in the past and continue to remove marks when a member has shown they arn't going to repeat the problem/offence.

The reason to remove offences off the board is my choice.  First off there are a couple reasons.  If the offender is a troll the reward of any troll is attention.  They treat their posts like badges of honor often posting links on other forums to "show off" what they did.  Reducing attention given at least IMO is the best way to deal with attention grabbing trolls and members who are gaming with others emotions through social engineering.  Second is it's important to maintain the rules on the forums. Ie to keep our forums the way our rules dictate.  For example, a user SHOULD read the rules to know that we do not allow swearing in the Family part of our forums.  They should NOT be required to read swearing left out in the open parts of the family section to know it is not allowed.  The "I don't want to read the rules." will still land a person a warning on almost ANY site on the net.


In the Scarlet Letter the "A" was pinned to people to make a corrupt goverment feel more rightous against a scape goat who did not as conviently cover their sins.

Kattywampus quote

Quote

Besides, it really LOOKS like y'all are slapping scarlet letters on people, 'cause no one knows what in the heck is going on, regardless of whether or not that is the case. Anyway, I've said what I need to say.  I'd say more, but my X count might go up.

"I'd say more but my X count may go up."  And your not painting more negative speculation like fact?  

On the board as long as you treat all parties concerns with personal respect and follow mod requests your welcome to talk on issues. Not a easy thing to do when a situation hurts your feelings.  A mod can take a discussion private too when requested/needed.  If something makes you mad and you come out swinging a baseball bat of anger aiming for the knees then you better hold off (here) till you can treat whoever you argue with respect.  I don't know of any other forums that require this type of respect in discussion.  But I feel it's important (again my opinion) as it allows groups of furs/people with strong differing opinion to talk in peace without power gaming/social engineering.

As far as the marks your right they are visable. They are there to remind a member of their past offence in the hopes they will see they need to be more careful.  Before we started giving out marks we just gave out verbal warnings.  When they ignorred to many they would tipicaly get a temp ban.  The member would be suprised becouse they didn't think past recent offences counted. The mark is to show the member that they need to stop breaking the rules as explained and it does seem to work for most members.  

A verbal warning is often given first unless the staff/mods feel the action was deliberate (the member knew the rules and chose to break them anyway).

As far as visible marks there may be a better way to do this.  Perhaps making marks visible only to the member in question?  I can see a few pros and cons to this.  But that is another discussion.  

I think the real reason to speak out on this topic is that it hurts to be judged.  Having members judge someone based on a mark just leads to more speculation.  

I'd like to say to the members I would ask that you please do not pubicly speculate on the "character" of members who have marks or have been banned.  As mods/staff we have the unlucky job of needing to make judgement calls on the best way to maintain the rules.  A conflict with us or the way this board is run does not mean a member is not a good person/fur or that they automaticly have problems in other social structures.  It just means that we as a moderating board had to act to the best of our understanding and felt an action was nessessary for the Forums/Furtopia itself.

We modorate becouse it's needed.  It's NOT a easy job at all.  So please try not judge someone or us becouse there is a dispute.  It's not fair to either side.  

Example: Kattywampus is one of Furtopia's oldest members (before we even had forums).  I concider her a friend and a VERY good person.  She even helped last year with the "Arts for Kids" project as a fur suiter (to give you an idea of her personaility).  Dispite personal friendship, I have not always agreed with all her decisions on dealing with problems on the board, and we have personaly talked about that and the "why" she got her mark.  Some times people with very big hearts can run a bit hot on temper.  It sucks when you are caught between trying to do your best in your job and the actions of a friend.  I stand by the reasons for the mods/staff voting for the mark.  Regardless I also stand by Kattywampus "is" a good furson as well.

The best thing to do is just try not to judge.  Most of us are just trying to do the best with what we know at the time.

Finally if anyone here ever has a concern with our actions you are welcome to PM me/us and we will be glad to talk with you on your concern.

  WhiteShepherd

[Kattywampus]

Quote (WhiteShepherd @ Sep. 08 2006, 1:01 am)

I think the real reason to speak out on this topic is that it hurts to be judged.  Having members judge someone based on a mark just leads to more speculation.   I'd like to say to the members I would ask that you please do not pubicly speculate on the "character" of members who have marks or have been banned.  As mods/staff we have the unlucky job of needing to make judgement calls on the best way to maintain the rules.  A conflict with us or the way this board is run does not mean a member is not a good person/fur or that they automaticly have problems in other social structures.  It just means that we as a moderating board had to act to the best of our understanding and felt an action was nessessary for the Forums/Furtopia itself. We modorate becouse it's needed.  It's NOT a easy job at all.  So please try not judge someone or us becouse there is a dispute.  It's not fair to either side.   The best thing to do is just try not to judge.  Most of us are just trying to do the best with what we know at the time.

Thanks a lot for saying that.
Especially since it SURE seems like some folks WANT you to speculate about X'd people. . .

In any event, yeah I DO have a temper.  But I'm one to stand up for what I believe in.  Sorry that it gets taken the wrong way, or personally.

[Yip]

Quote (WhiteShepherd @ Sep. 08 2006, 1:01 am)

As far as visible marks there may be a better way to do this.  Perhaps making marks visible only to the member in question?  I can see a few pros and cons to this.  But that is another discussion.

I thought that was exactly what this thread was about. Or did you mean your post in particular?

I too can see pros and cons to that idea.
For example: If you can't see others marks you'd be less likely to try to judge them based on that. But on the other hand, if someone you know is a trouble marker gets a visible mark it lets you know that they are not getting away with acting like they do.

It seems to me that the two issues, marks and deleted threads, are very closely related. And as far as deleted threads, I do sometimes think the staff gets carried away with it sometimes. I mean sometimes it makes sense. But other times, especially when things are deleted without trace, it gives me the feeling that there's some kind of cover up going on. Like the "friendly atmosphere" is really only a mask. (though that could also partially be since most of the few friends I've made here seem to leave.)

Personally, I like seeing the marks as it helps me to know whats going on. Though I do think they should only be given in extreme circumstances, which I think is pretty much how it is. Similarly, except in case of pure troll activity, I don't like threads being completely deleted without trace. I think that too should be left only for extreme cases (like the aforementioned troll activity.)

--------------------------

Just tossing an idea out there: Maybe there should be both. Which one given would be based on the situation. Like higher or repeated violations would get a visible one, but lesser ones would get a non-visable. Kind of like a step between a warning and a visible mark.

I don't know, just an idea.

[Tigress]

If you relly think of it in a way it's like descrimination. Other furs might not comunicate just because a mark is there and think's that furry is bad just because a rule was broken. [I'm not saying rule breaking isn't bad or anything] But what if a furry has learned from what they've done, have said their sorrys, though others wish not speak to them and miss out on a wonderful friend or conversation? Yish there are tons of fish in the sea to make friends. But you might still be missing out to makeing bff's....

[Kada-Ru]

Actually, I haven't been seeing any complaints from members that have marks that aren't being talked to because of their mark. Members get marks to show they have to follow the rules. If they follow them, there is no problem. If they don't, they get their warnings first by PM then by a vote of the board, a warning will be given. But it is required to have a vote for the warning mark to be placed. IN ALL CASES. So, there is plenting of warnings to the member about their behavior prior to a warning mark.

They are visible to show others that if they wish to not follow rules, this could happen to them as well. Most members have no problems with the rules. Only a very select few do.

We used to take the warning marks off after a specified amount of time but that didn't seem to be working as the member would behave during that allotted time then once the mark was removed, they would revert right back to their bad behavior. A vote was taken to keep the mark permanently or if they requested a removal to the board after 1 year.

This is done because of the ones that love to walk the line of the rules. Katty is not one of these. Most are the trouble makers.

Each situation is handled as an individual situation. That is the only way to be fair.

I hope this clears things up better. The marks will be remaining. The amount of time will be remaining. The marks will remain visible. Perhaps in the future if we don't need to do things this way they can be changed by a vote of the board. I don't see that happening any time soon though. Sorry folks.

[Firehazard]

Quote (Tigress @ Sep. 08 2006, 8:24 pm)

If you relly think of it in a way it's like descrimination. Other furs might not comunicate just because a mark is there and think's that furry is bad just because a rule was broken.

In my opinion, anyone who would refuse to associate with me because of a warning mark, were I to ever get one, would not be the kind of person I'd want to be friends with anyway.  Lord knows I've never thought less of people because they had warning marks.  Personally I find them sexy. '>

[Vaide]

Quote (Savaaha @ Sep. 07 2006, 8:19 am)

For starters,Katty they dont get a warning mark UNTIL AFTER they have recieved a verbal warning(sometimes even up to 3 verbals). Unless the offense is serious and the offender is a long time member and should know the rules. We do not just slap a mark on them. We do give them chances before the mark is applied.

I didn't...

I personally messed up once (For insinuating a cuss word. Not saying it, just putting the first letter and some dashes.) and got an X right off the bat for it.

EDIT: Not that I'm complaining or trying to get my X removed, I totally understand now that it was too far, but I just honestly thought that dashing out a word didn't count as cursing. Comics put symbols and pictures in place of cursewords so I figured that was equal to the same thing.

[Mazz]

Quote (Vaide @ Sep. 09 2006, 12:18 am)

Quote (Savaaha @ Sep. 07 2006, 8:19 am) For starters,Katty they dont get a warning mark UNTIL AFTER they have recieved a verbal warning(sometimes even up to 3 verbals). Unless the offense is serious and the offender is a long time member and should know the rules. We do not just slap a mark on them. We do give them chances before the mark is applied. I didn't... I personally messed up once (For insinuating a cuss word. Not saying it, just putting the first letter and some dashes.) and got an X right off the bat for it. EDIT: Not that I'm complaining or trying to get my X removed, I totally understand now that it was too far, but I just honestly thought that dashing out a word didn't count as cursing. Comics put symbols and pictures in place of cursewords so I figured that was equal to the same thing.

we voted on your mark.

I'm locking this because this discussion should have already been over by now. If you have a problem with why you got a mark please PM White Shepherd instead of complaining in open forums.

Thankyou