Author Topic: A little debate on --how-- to debate.  (Read 3143 times)

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Offline Alexandre

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A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« on: August 17, 2010, 01:10:52 am »
We've seen some controversial topics recently, and I really think they can be fun to discuss.  However, as I've seen, the more controversial a topic, the more likely it is that flames start spreading.  I don't think this anyone intends for this to happen -- we just eventually end up at a point where things have gone a little too far.

So let's discuss some things that could help with debates.  I'll post my opinions about what could help keep the most controversial debate orderly and positive; feel free to disagree or add your own ideas after this.  I'll admit that I have a very idealized view of debating, and I highly doubt it's perfect.  However, it might help others.

1.  The point of debate

We've all seen politicians going at each other's throats on television.  They often call these things "debates", but from my point of view, they're simply organized slap-fests.  Philosophers, however, think about things differently.  From the way I see it, debates are meant to bring two people with differing opinions to a middle ground.  In other words, a debate cannot be effective if each person is uber-determined to keep their own opinion -- rather, all parties must be able to see why the opposition would see things the way they see them.

Think of it this way -- a debate is to gain information, not to teach something to someone else.

2.  Attitudes within debates

If a debate is meant to gain information rather than teaching someone else, sharing new information becomes more of an exercise to organize your arguments, making sense of your thoughts and feelings.  Often times, we do have opinions about things, but it's hard to completely make sense of everything we feel and think.  By writing them down, we actually learn a lot more about our own opinions.  More than once, I've written something than completely realized I didn't believe it at all.

What if people attack you?  Unfortunately, they probably do not understand the purpose of debate.  Try reading their post without a voice (or with a robot voice) -- perhaps the post is actually calmer than the first time you read it.  While emotions are important in discussions, discussing emotional outbursts only causes problems.  It's okay to talk about emotions, but only information should be debated.

What if I strongly disagree with what someone else believes?  It's okay to disagree.  However, there's a reason the other person thinks the way they do.  Before arguing against it, try to understand why they think that way.  Type it out and present it -- this will show that you are trying to understand it.  After trying to understand, you have every right to show evidence against that stance.  By doing that, you will have learned why someone else believes differently and found a way to word your own thoughts.

3.  Things to avoid in debates

We've already talked about emotions, but there are other things that can be dangerous in debates.  Generally, these things cause people to get upset and the whole debate derailed.  Most have to deal with logical fallacies.

Assuming.  Assumptions are really, really dangerous.  Take for example:

Statement -- I don't support gay marriage.
Assumption -- That person is religious.

By making that assumption, the second person automatically forgets any other arguments and turns the whole thing into a religious debate.  The first person might not be religious at all.

If you don't understand why someone posts what they post or why someone would believe what they believe, it's generally best to ask questions.  Instead of arguing about religion as was seen above, the person could have asked, "Why don't you support it?"  This would have helped the second person know what the actual reasons were, helping them both reach more of a middle ground.  Remember, understanding the other person is much more important than convincing them of what you think.

Attacking a person's character.  Talking about the person behind the argument is never useful -- it means that you aren't listening to what they say, and it makes them much less likely to listen to you.  Generally, we don't mean to do that, but occasionally something can slip out.  One way to avoid that is to read your post as if you were the other person and seeing if they would be offended -- if so, your post may need to be changed.

The word "hypocrite" is very dangerous.  Just because a person smokes doesn't mean they can't believe that smoking is bad.  Calling that person a "hypocrite" will keep them from sharing information that could be very helpful to reaching a conclusion.

Harsh reprimands.  Doing this will attack a person's character, not the argument.  If there is a hole in what they are saying, it's either appropriate to ask questions about it or carefully bring it up.  It's okay to argue against something as long as you have sufficient evidence to back it up.  If you don't, you should mention that you don't (it's much better to be honest about somewhat-weak arguments than pretend there's info backing you up).


I believe that following these things will cause debates to be much more productive.  It's possible that you will end up debating with someone who doesn't follow these ideas; even so, you'll be able to have a much more productive debate.

Anyway, go for it, guys.  What makes a productive debate?
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Offline Avan

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2010, 01:35:39 am »
1) I would disagree. You have the right setup but are drawing the wrong conclusions from it. Debates are not about a middle ground; they can result in that, but not necessarily. A debate is where the information presented by others is being processed & logic applied to it to determine if it makes sense or not. And then to say why it does or does not, at which point said process is repeated by others. and etc. till a conclusion is reached.

Thus the idea is that the debate will result in the most logical response.

However, simply outright ignoring what else is said and continually pushing something that has already been shown to be incorrect or otherwise logically flawed in its backing is just blindly arguing. That is not debating, as you had said.

2) Not entirely sure what you are getting here. More of telling people not to overreact I would think.

What I was thinking on the subject: (rather unrelated to your train of thought however)
Emotion has no place in logic. It is, by its very nature, not logical when left unbridled. Even when controlled, it can at best be used only as a motivating factor, but never as a reason in and of itself. For it controlled independently of your mind (when I say mind, I refer to what thoughts are willfully controlled); an automated functioning of the brain.

3) Yes, assumptions can be highly misleading and lead to false conclusions.
Yes, attacking someone's character is not valid reasoning. (unless said person is the subject of debate, in which case it may be the conclusion that is being debated, but it is still less likely to be legitimately used in reasoning.)
It is easy to misconstrue bluntness for harshness. A blunt response may seem harsh to some people, when in fact it is the most effective way to debate when all parties are aware of it, because it means that less time is wasted in getting to the point. Harshness as an attack of character would be covering part 3b redundantly. (Attacking the person's character)
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Offline Alexandre

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2010, 01:46:08 am »
Quote
1) I would disagree. You have the right setup but are drawing the wrong conclusions from it. Debates are not about a middle ground; they can result in that, but not necessarily. A debate is where the information presented by others is being processed & logic applied to it to determine if it makes sense or not. And then to say why it does or does not, at which point said process is repeated by others. and etc. till a conclusion is reached.

I think I understand what you're saying here, Avan.  However, I think a middle-ground is created in every debate.  Sometimes, it's very close to the original view -- in the end, person 1 can still not believe what person 2 says.  However, both do reach a sort of middle ground by at least learning why the other thinks the way they think.

I know, I know... most people won't call that a middle-ground, but I do.  Perhaps I could phrase it better in what I posted above.

The only debate that won't lead to more understanding is an argument like "the sun is blue."  But, then again, that's not really a debate.
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Offline Avan

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 02:08:30 am »
Well, there is a point when you reach things that simply cannot be debated, as they are not backed up by valid logic. IE, when the only 'justification' for something is a logical fallacy, such as circular reasoning. Inherently, trying to press the issue after being told that the logic is invalid as it clearly would be, would be nothing more than arguing.
One would not have to go to such blatant extremes as outright lying. (though it is an example)
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Offline Mooshi

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 02:27:15 am »
The only logical solution is A) If you read a topic that makes you think "This is wrong!" and sends you into a mini rage before you clicked, kindly reconsider instead of wasting your time becoming mad. and B) If you do decide to click anyway..make sure to bring rootbeer floats for everyone! :O

Offline Alexandre

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 02:32:11 am »
lol, Mooshi.  Very true.  And I love rootbeer floats. :)

Anyway, I gotta point out that my way of thinking is very much an idealized view of debating.  I think Mooshi has a very logical solution -- think twice before clicking.  This has saved me quite a few times from embarrassment in a discussion.
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Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2010, 02:57:41 am »
I slightly disagree with part 1 in much the same way Avan does.  In my eyes, debate is a way for multiple parties to use each other's perspectives to better their own paradigm on a situation.  It may not necessarily be a middle ground; for instance, all involved parties may realize that their original paradigms were insufficient, at which alternative paradigms would come into consideration.  There may not necessarily be agreement in an ideal argument, either.  After all, different individuals have different base values, and if these are uses as base premises for argument, it would make sense that different individuals would come to different conclusions, even assuming flawless logic from all parties.

Also, I'd like to add something to your section 2.  I feel that debating parties should not assume that the validities of opposing arguments are dependent on each other.  It's possible for opposing parties in a debate to both be right, and it's also possible for such parties to both be wrong.  Sometimes (but as of yet, not here), I feel that people forget this, and either transpose the support of their own argument and the debunking of opposing arguments or refuse to consider the possibility that both parties involved in a debate might be right.

Aside from this, I pretty much agree with the entire original post.
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Offline Yip

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 05:18:20 am »
I've been thinking of making a thread like this. So I'll just post here what I was planning to use:
Quote
“You should not choose a side and then prove that it is right, but rather prove which side is right and then make that your side.”  -Nathan Haynes1

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A lot of people have the wrong idea when it comes to debate. For this reason, I have often said that I dislike debate but enjoy intelligent discussion.  The problem with debate is that many people take a position of “win at all costs”.  This position is intellectually dishonest, and in my opinion childish.

The point of a debate should not be to win, but to achieve a better understanding, to reach as many true beliefs as possible and as few false ones, and to help others do the same.  Therefore, in an effort to promote honest debate, I have come up with these guidelines2.

------------------------------------------------------------------
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Remain civil and respectful to others even if you disagree.
(this should be a given, but I figured I’d mention it anyways.)

Always avoid using logical fallacies.
(lists and descriptions of logical fallacies can be found at numerous websites.)

Remain amenable to persuasion.
That is, always be willing to consider that you may be wrong. (Note: this only means that you remain open to the possibility that you could be wrong, not that you automatically accept anything that comes along.)

Be willing to admit when you are wrong, or at the very least stop insisting that you are right.

Recognize that when someone else admits that they are wrong on a point, that does not automatically invalidate the rest of their argument. (For example, if someone lists 10 reasons why Blorkism3 helps society, and someone points out how reason #4 is invalid, this does not invalidate the other 9 reasons.)

Be willing to accept and admit when you don’t know something. Likewise, do not pretend to know what you do not.
 
Recognize that it does not invalidate someone’s argument if they admit that they do not know something. We should all be willing to accept and admit that we don’t know what we don’t know. (Note: there may be exceptions in cases where a person’s argument rests on them having knowledge of a particular thing.)

Do not employ intellectually dishonest debating tactics.
(Note: most of these are also logical fallacies. But this also includes ones that are not. For example, repeating the same thing over and over hoping that the other people will get tried and go away. It's not a logical fallacy, but it's still an intellectually dishonest debating tactic.)

Likewise, do not rant. Which is to say that every argument and every piece of evidence you present should have good reason for being there, particularly on lengthy posts, and particularly if you are listing multiple things. (Note: this is not mean that you can't include some friendly casual remarks and the like.)

You do not need to respond to every point brought up, nor to every part of someone’s post. This sort of thing tends to make posts grow overly long and complicated.


Notes:
1 yes, I’m quoting myself here
2 if anyone has ideas to improve this list, please let me know.
3 made up word that I made up. Any actual meaning is purely coincidental.

Offline Kobuk

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 07:26:06 am »
Alexandre beat me to almost everything I wanted to say. :(

Offline Kobuk

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 08:18:45 am »
P.S. - Uh.....Alex. Everything you said is not the right way to have a debate. THIS is the right way to debate/argue.  :D  :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Sorry, folks. I just couldn't resist.  :-[  :D Now, Will this thread be the 5 minute debate or the full half hour?

Offline killrhawk

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2010, 12:38:26 am »
I agree with Alex about pretty much everything. A debate is used to change the oppositions opinion of someone, while trying to understand their side. The perfect debate ends with both parties having understood the other and coming back with more knowledge then before. I would consider that to be middle ground. What I don't agree with is this statement

Think of it this way -- a debate is to gain information, not to teach something to someone else.

You are trying to teach the opposition something while debating, your trying to teach them all about your side. You just need to make sure your absorbing what they're saying too.
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Offline Alexandre

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2010, 10:25:16 am »
Think of it this way -- a debate is to gain information, not to teach something to someone else.

You are trying to teach the opposition something while debating, your trying to teach them all about your side. You just need to make sure your absorbing what they're saying too.
Now that you say that, I think you're right.  What I posted in that phrase was sort of an unrealistic idea.  Perhaps this would work better:

Quote
Think of it this way -- a debate isn't meant for someone to lecture someone else, but rather a way for all parties to gain mutual understanding of a subject.
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Offline Avan

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2010, 10:26:30 am »
And then to adjust what they believe accordingly, as needed.
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Offline Yip

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Re: A little debate on --how-- to debate.
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2010, 05:03:11 pm »
It's important that we do not make a policy of protecting ideas from critical analysis because by doing so what we are really doing is creating an environment where stupidity can flourish. I'm all for supporting tolerance towards each other and getting along, but this can be better achieved though intelligence than through stupidity.

Arguments against someone's beliefs are NOT arguments against the person.

However, it is very easy to slip from one to the other. For example, if someone presents a belief that is really freaking stupid, it's very easy to think the person that presented it is stupid. But that's not necessarily the case. And even when it is, pointing it out (for example, calling the person stupid) does not help create an environment of understanding.