What are your thoughts on why the poor are poor

[CiceroKit]

I was reading one of the books Itico has for one of his political science classes. The book is More than Just Race by William J. Wilson. In it, the author cited some opinion surveys pertaining to poverty in America, the latest of which was a 2007 survey conducted by Pew Research. Whites, Blacks and Hispanics were asked a series of questions about why they believed the poor in this country are poor. The majority of people in each racial division each expressed that they believed people were poor because they lacked education, talent, or the drive to work hard. Whites tended to have the largest number of people who expressed this belief while Blacks had the lowest with 71% of Whites reporting that this is what they believed and 53% of Blacks reporting that this is what they believe.

Since 2003, I have experienced periods of joblessness. I have a BA in communication (graduating with honors in 2000, earning a full tuition scholarship for my last full year of school), and have completed coursework for an MA in communication (earning a scholarship for excellence in teaching in 2006). Most people who have worked alongside of me would say I am a hard worker, and many more people see me as multi-talented, demonstrating ability in visual arts, graphic design, writing, public relations, campaign work and teaching. So if all that is true and the perceptions of the average American is true, than why should I, and numerous people like me, be out of work and living near the federal poverty level?

You can probably guess where I stand on why people are poor. I don't think it is directly related to achievement or lack there of the way most people who responded to the Pew survey seemed to suggest. I am not of the mindset of many impoverished people who believe it is a matter of luck. I simply think that we live in a socioeconomic culture that creates an imbalance of wealth and rewards mediocrity rather than excellence. From 1996-2001, this was not so much the case. It was a brief period of economic prosperity in what has otherwise been a downward spiral since the 1950s. Wilson cites this in his book.

What do you think? Do you think public opinion on poverty might be different today given the bleak economic times? Do you believe that the best and the brightest will have an easier time getting out of an economic hole? Or do you believe that anyone may be subject to periods of poverty given circumstance?

[Shabbernigdo]

IMO its a combination of skill / intelegence / luck and drive

[Sigurd Volsung]

From what I remember from my sociology classes in college there are many reasons.

There is a great problem with lack of education, not in opportunity exactly but in desire and drive. Now this is going to sound racist but it is not meant to. In general Asians, especially recent immigrants or children whose parents are immigrants do well because of the emphasis placed on education in their society. Parents are more likely to spend time helping their children succeed in school. Blacks are kind of screwed up, all too often the parents don't have time to spend helping their children with their homework or even the drive to help. Hispanics have many of the same problems as blacks. In the case of both minorities there is a greater likely hood that education isn't seen as a priority only as something that gets in the way of the real world. With whites there is a greater chance that they'll have the resources to spend time helping their children with school work or be able to provide greater opportunities for further academic enhancement.

Another thing that will hamper an education is the likely hood that poor individuals will have several kids with several fathers none of which belong to the man who is helping raise them. Now I'm not saying that people should wait until they are married until they have kids, but all too often you'll find that women with children from multiple fathers often started having their children at such a young age that they weren't able to get very far in their own education.

Keep in mind that these are stereotypes that are far to often true. The problem with stereotypes is often there is some truth behind them.

Now just because a child's parents aren't well educated doesn't necessarily place them at a disadvantage, I read about a head surgeon at a major hospital (please don't ask which I no longer have the text book from which I read about this man) His mother was, for all practical purposes, illiterate. What she did was have her son write a book report a week and then would pretend to read them make marks in the margins with a read pen to make it look like she had actually read the paper. From what I remember the doctor didn't realize that his mother couldn't read until he was well into high school but by that time he had already been bitten by the love of education.

Race doesn't factor into education as much as drive put there by the environment surrounding the person. However education is far from being enough to make or break someones ability to make money.

Another factor is luck. I'm sorry I don't care who you are I'm going to tell you right now that luck can make or break you. Example my mother has had her job as a PR person for a major school district for twenty-six years. On numerous occasions she has tried for the same job in other districts, every time she has gone for one of these jobs she makes it to the final interview round each time they give the job to another person. While she has far more experience the person that gets the job has more education, what got my mother in her current job was the luck of knowing the right people. Fairly recently she was offered a job at a local university for the same position she didn't even know the position was open they came to her with the offer. The reason they sought her out was they had talked to people in the news media and several radio, and television stations and the major newspaper in the area all said the same thing, "Talk to Mary" she had the luck of people asking the right people the right question. Often times it comes down to luck and contacts, and many times the contacts are made because of a parents money which is why a rich person often had rich parents who had rich parents and so on and so forth.

The last factor I'll mention are sheer guts: I'll tell you right here and right now you have to be brave to make it in this world. I met a singer song writer who put it best when he said "When I preform at a concert I know that there is at least one person who can play guitar better than I can." and this guy is incredible on a guitar. What many people lack is the sheer ability to face rejection. I know a lot of writers in the furry world who are far, far better than many published authors, even best selling authors. Yet what do published authors have that my writing friends don't? The ability to face rejection letter after rejection letter. If I remember correctly Steven King was hit by almost fifty rejection letters before he got one of his books, the third one he wrote in fact, "Fire Starter" published, after that book was published his first two got picked up immediately, from there you know the rest of that story, or you've been living under a rock for the past thirty or forty years. You may be the best person in your field but that doesn't mean a thing if you don't have the guts to prove it to others.

The last reason that there are people who are poor is that the way this country works we need poor people to do the grunt work that others don't want. We can't all be working middle income jobs without some peon working for minimum wage, (which if you ask me is far, far too low. Keep in mind I'm a socialist), flipping burgers, it simply doesn't work that way in this country. The US needs poor people we just don't want to admit it.

[Acton]

I have to say at had  for 80% higher education is not a way out of poverty. expect for some professions I see college as a huge waste of resources both public and private. Higher education make more arrogant and dumb down people. I do not believe in the so call imbalance of wealth, wealth can be only created or consumed. Just some are better at doing it. The smart people, ie as in the old book The Millionaire Next Door, have discipline themselves to wealth creators than wealth consumers. To make things worst from Washington to our living room we condition ourselves to consume via debt more wealth  we can we earn. The American Dream went from the Protestant work ethic of reward for hard work to one of  consumption mixed in with entitlement This is the lesson  I failed to learn going form a 600 a week job to 260 unemployment.

[CiceroKit]

Sigurd, I agree that a lot has to do with who a person knows when it comes to getting a job. I would go beyond that, though, and say it depends on one's family name. I grew up in poverty. I was 11 when my dad finally got hired by one of the area paper mills. My family name is not associated with wealth. There is a stigma with that.

That is one of the reasons I don't really believe the rhetoric about rags to riches. I am aware that it sometimes happens (Larry King, Paul Mitchell), but I think that it is rare. I had been forced out of a job because the president of the board of directors wanted her daughter to have my job. It seems to me that most of the very wealthy people in the U.S. today were born into privilege.

I also agree with your stance on why we have working poor. It is cynical, no doubt, but largely true, but it also makes little economic sense since when we have more people in the middle classes, we have a better economy all the way around. Middle class people not only can afford to buy more goods, but also invest and help create wealth. The poor don't have that option.

Despite my story, I do believe that I will eventually come ahead. I have less debt than many people in this country, but I am relying on the economy getting better. I realize that I could simply go for another Masters or a Ph.D. and improve my chances of getting a full-time teaching appointment, but for many highly skilled yet jobless people, they may not have the same opportunity. Things will pick up for me as I will be teaching as adjunct faculty starting in October, but I still will be making less than at my previous job.

A couple of people who fit that highly skilled yet jobless description? I know of one woman who used to be Executive Director or the regional Girl Scout council who has been out of work for several years. She left her job at Girl Scouts for a higher position, and then was downsized. Same is true for a talented CPA that I know. This man got the city out of debt, but was still cut. The recent joblessness of highly skilled individuals may simply be part of this recession.

I think discrimination plays a huge part in this too. Issues of race aside, if one has any kind of disabling condition at all, no one wants to hire that person, even if their disability would not hinder work performance. The ADA, while good in theory, is unenforceable. It is difficult to prove that this discrimination happens, but if you live with a disability, you can witness it first hand. I bring this up because I believe it is one more group that our institutions consciously or subconsciously work to keep down.

Overall, though, I believe that mediocre workers are the most likely to get hired and hang onto jobs in this country. People don't want to hire people who are more skilled, more efficient or harder working than they themselves are. We champion competition so much that of course if someone who is better at your job than you comes on board, that is an immediate threat to your job. It seems silly, but I have seen it. That is what it truly means to be overqualified.

[Sigurd Volsung]

My wife was forced out of a job because of being schizophrenic it did not hamper her ability to do her job but a new store manager felt that "people like her" had no business with dealing with normal people. Other, lower, managers knew what his reasoning for cutting her hours were but because of legal repocussions of the corporate office my wife had no ability to fight back. She wasn't even fired so she was unable to collect unemployment benefits until she could find a new job. So all to often it is business practices that make it impossible for people to get ahead, especially when companies are allowed to bust unions and get away with it so the employees have no chance of getting together to fight for better pay and benefits (If you can't tell I'm a union fur myself)

[Serra Belvoule]

It's a bit of politics in an endless loop. If we could divide all the world's money equally, there would be enough for everyone to live a very nice life, BUT the people that make lots of money have to take it out from someone, and those are the middle and lower classes.
Thing is, high classes rarely start out as middle or low. Usually it takes money to make money, and most of the time new business bankrupt within the first year (if I recall correctly).
Imagine you're poor. How'd you stop being poor if you're barely getting by? And as bad as this sounds, seldom will lower classes be hired on anything that will allow them to increase their monetary lifestyle. It's a mix of education, prejudice and opportunity.
Sadly, it's a self-perpetuating loop, this social class thingy.

[Sigurd Volsung]

One of the few things a person can do to get a head of the game if they start out at the bottom to work their way up is to join the Army, see the world, and wish they were sailing (Send me a PM if you get the joke), and since not everyone can pass the physical and other tests to join that still leaves a lot of people out in the cold.

[Serra Belvoule]

One of the few things a person can do to get a head of the game if they start out at the bottom to work their way up is to join the Army, see the world, and wish they were sailing (Send me a PM if you get the joke), and since not everyone can pass the physical and other tests to join that still leaves a lot of people out in the cold.

Could you explain? I'm afraid the reference barely rings a bell but I can't put my finger on it...

[Sigurd Volsung]

The full quote goes "Join the Army they said. See the world they said. I'd rather be sailing." Common Allied Armies soldier from War Craft 2 by Blizzard

[Serra Belvoule]

Ah, that's why. I don't play warcraft but back in highschool most mah friends did