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Offline whitedingo

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« on: February 24, 2005, 03:06:36 am »
Ive been pondering this do you think your furryness is possibly from past lives.For me maybe l was a dog in a previos life thats why l have these feelings of course you must believe in reincarnation ':dead:'
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Offline Party Pony

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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2005, 11:17:42 am »
ONE CENT:
Maybe you were supposed to be a dog in THIS life...
and the spirit merely got into the wrong body.

TWO CENTS:
I don't discount reincarnation...
but don't feel it is necessary to have had 'past life' experiences.
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Offline Burr

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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2005, 12:05:36 pm »
I don't believe in past experiences. Reincarnation maybe, but not so much into that either. Anyway I just feel I chose hedgehog as my species just because I like it and feel it represents me in certain ways, not because of any spiritual connection per se.
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Offline Savaaha

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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2005, 01:28:54 pm »
This was one of the 1st questions I asked when I joined furtopia. I not only believe I have been a horse I do believe the reoccuring dream I have had all my life is of that time. I wont go into the dream but its one that always wakes me in a cold sweat. It is written down in my webpages.

Offline whitedingo

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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2005, 01:55:06 pm »
Quote (Party Pony @ Feb. 24 2005, 11:17 am)
ONE CENT:
Maybe you were supposed to be a dog in THIS life...
and the spirit merely got into the wrong body.

l like your answer party l'm not shore about reincarnation ether but most reliogons have it in one form or another ie christians




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Offline Burr

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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2005, 02:40:58 pm »
Christians believe in reincarnation? That's news to me.  ':shock:'
"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." - Archilocus

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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2005, 02:57:39 pm »
from "some answered Questions"

Quote
81. REINCARNATION
Question.--What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?
Answer.--The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality--not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism.
Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one.
The second sort of believers in reincarnation affirm the existence of the other world, and they consider reincarnation the means of becoming perfect--that is, they think that man, by going from and coming again to this world, will gradually acquire perfections, until he reaches the inmost perfection. In other words, that men are composed of matter and force: matter in the beginning--that is to say, in the first cycle--is imperfect, but on coming repeatedly to this world it progresses and acquires refinement and delicacy, until it becomes like a polished mirror; and force, which is no other than spirit, is realized in it with all the perfections.
This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments. Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations.
But you have asked for arguments of the impossibility of reincarnation. This is what we must now explain. The first argument for its impossibility is that the outward is the expression of the inward; the earth is the mirror of the Kingdom; the material world corresponds to the spiritual world. Now observe that in the sensible world appearances are not repeated, for no being in any respect is identical with, nor the same as, another being. The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things. If all the granaries of the world were full of grain, you would not find two grains absolutely alike, the same and identical without any distinction. It is certain that there will be differences and distinctions between them. As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible. Therefore, reincarnation, which is the repeated appearance of the same spirit with its former essence and condition in this same world of appearance, is impossible and unrealizable. As the repetition of the same appearance is impossible and interdicted for each of the material beings, so for spiritual beings also, a return to the same condition, whether in the arc of descent or in the arc of ascent, is interdicted and impossible, for the material corresponds to the spiritual.
Nevertheless, the return of material beings with regard to species is evident; so the trees which during former years brought forth leaves, blossoms and fruits in the coming years will bring forth exactly the same leaves, blossoms and fruits. This is called the repetition of species. If anyone makes an objection saying that the leaf, the blossom and the fruit have been decomposed, and have descended from the vegetable world to the mineral world, and again have come back from the mineral world to the vegetable world, and, therefore, there has been a repetition-- the answer is that the blossom, the leaf and the fruit of last year were decomposed, and these combined elements were disintegrated and were dispersed in space, and that the particles of the leaf and fruit of last year, after decomposition, have not again become combined, and have not returned. On the contrary, by the composition of new elements, the species has returned. It is the same with the human body, which after decomposition becomes disintegrated, and the elements which composed it are dispersed. If, in like manner, this body should again return from the mineral or vegetable world, it would not have exactly the same composition of elements as the former man. Those elements have been decomposed and dispersed; they are dissipated in this vast space. Afterward, other particles of elements have been combined, and a second body has been formed; it may be that one of the particles of the former individual has entered into the composition of the succeeding individual, but these particles have not been conserved and kept, exactly and completely, without addition or diminution, so that they may be combined again, and from that composition and mingling another individual may come into existence. So it cannot be proved that this body with all its particles has returned; that the former man has become the latter; and that, consequently, there has been repetition; that the spirit also, like the body, has returned; and that after death its essence has come back to this world.
If we say that this reincarnation is for acquiring perfections so that matter may become refined and delicate, and that the light of the spirit may be manifest in it with the greatest perfection, this also is mere imagination. For, even supposing we believe in this argument, still change of nature is impossible through renewal and return. The essence of imperfection, by returning, does not become the reality of perfection; complete darkness, by returning, does not become the source of light; the essence of weakness is not transformed into power and might by returning, and an earthly nature does not become a heavenly reality. The tree of Zaqqum,[The infernal tree mentioned in the Qur'an.] no matter how frequently it may come back, will not bring forth sweet fruit, and the good tree, no matter how often it may return, will not bear a bitter fruit. Therefore, it is evident that returning and coming back to the material world does not become the cause of perfection. This theory has no proofs nor evidences; it is simply an idea. No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.
The Theosophists believe that man on the arc of ascent[i.e., of the Circle of Existence.] will return many times until he reaches the Supreme Center; in that condition matter becomes a clear mirror, the light of the spirit will shine upon it with its full power, and essential perfection will be acquired. Now, this is an established and deep theological proposition, that the material worlds are terminated at the end of the arc of descent, and that the condition of man is at the end of the arc of descent, and at the beginning of the arc of ascent, which is opposite to the Supreme Center. Also, from the beginning to the end of the arc of ascent, there are numerous spiritual degrees. The arc of descent is called beginning,[Lit., bringing forth.] and that of ascent is called progress.[Lit., producing something new.] The arc of descent ends in materialities, and the arc of ascent ends in spiritualities. The point of the compass in describing a circle makes no retrograde motion, for this would be contrary to the natural movement and the divine order; otherwise, the symmetry of the circle would be spoiled.
Moreover, this material world has not such value or such excellence that man, after having escaped from this cage, will desire a second time to fall into this snare. No, through the Eternal Bounty the worth and true ability of man becomes apparent and visible by traversing the degrees of existence, and not by returning. When the shell is once opened, it will be apparent and evident whether it contains a pearl or worthless matter. When once the plant has grown it will bring forth either thorns or flowers; there is no need for it to grow up again. Besides, advancing and moving in the worlds in a direct order according to the natural law is the cause of existence, and a movement contrary to the system and law of nature is the cause of nonexistence. The return of the soul after death is contrary to the natural movement, and opposed to the divine system.
Therefore, by returning, it is absolutely impossible to obtain existence; it is as if man, after being freed from the womb, should return to it a second time. Consider what a puerile imagination this is which is implied by the belief in reincarnation and transmigration. Believers in it consider the body as a vessel in which the spirit is contained, as water is contained in a cup; this water has been taken from one cup and poured into another. This is child's play. They do not realize that the spirit is an incorporeal being, and does not enter and come forth, but is only connected with the body as the sun is with the mirror. If it were thus, and the spirit by returning to this material world could pass through the degrees and attain to essential perfection, it would be better if God prolonged the life of the spirit in the material world until it had acquired perfections and graces; it then would not be necessary for it to taste of the cup of death, or to acquire a second life.
The idea that existence is restricted to this perishable world, and the denial of the existence of divine worlds, originally proceeded from the imaginations of certain believers in reincarnation; but the divine worlds are infinite. If the divine worlds culminated in this material world, creation would be futile: nay, existence would be pure child's play. The result of these endless beings, which is the noble existence of man, would come and go for a few days in this perishable dwelling, and after receiving punishments and rewards, at last all would become perfect. The divine creation and the infinite existing beings would be perfected and completed, and then the Divinity of the Lord, and the names and qualities of God, on behalf of these spiritual beings, would, as regards their effect, result in laziness and inaction! "Glory to thy Lord, the Lord Who is sanctified from all their descriptions."[Cf. Qur'an 37:180.]
Such were the limited minds of the former philosophers, like Ptolemy and the others who believed and imagined that the world, life and existence were restricted to this terrestrial globe, and that this boundless space was confined within the nine spheres of heaven, and that all were empty and void. Consider how greatly their thoughts were limited and how weak their minds. Those who believe in reincarnation think that the spiritual worlds are restricted to the worlds of human imagination. Moreover, some of them, like the Druzes and the Nusayris, think that existence is restricted to this physical world. What an ignorant supposition! For in this universe of God, which appears in the most complete perfection, beauty and grandeur, the luminous stars of the material universe are innumerable! Then we must reflect how limitless and infinite are the spiritual worlds, which are the essential foundation. "Take heed ye who are endued with discernment."[ Qur'an 59:2.]
But let us return to our subject. In the Divine Scriptures and Holy Books "return" is spoken of, but the ignorant have not understood the meaning, and those who believed in reincarnation have made conjectures on the subject. For what the divine Prophets meant by "return" is not the return of the essence, but that of the qualities; it is not the return of the Manifestation, but that of the perfections. In the Gospel it says that John, the son of Zacharias, is Elias. These words do not mean the return of the rational soul and personality of Elias in the body of John, but rather that the perfections and qualities of Elias were manifested and appeared in John.
A lamp shone in this room last night, and when tonight another lamp shines, we say the light of last night is again shining. Water flows from a fountain; then it ceases; and when it begins to flow a second time, we say this water is the same water flowing again; or we say this light is identical with the former light. It is the same with the spring of last year, when blossoms, flowers and sweet-scented herbs bloomed, and delicious fruits were brought forth; next year we say that those delicious fruits have come back, and those blossoms, flowers and blooms have returned and come again. This does not mean that exactly the same particles composing the flowers of last year have, after decomposition, been again combined and have then come back and returned. On the contrary, the meaning is that the delicacy, freshness, delicious perfume and wonderful color of the flowers of last year are visible and apparent in exactly the same manner in the flowers of this year. Briefly, this expression refers only to the resemblance and likeness which exist between the former and latter flowers. The "return" which is mentioned in the Divine Scriptures is this: it is fully explained by the Supreme Pen[ Baha'u'llah.] in the Kitab-i-Iqan. Refer to it, so that you may be informed of the truth of the divine mysteries.
Upon you be greetings and praise.


Offline Knark Kitsune

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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2005, 05:20:58 pm »
I don't believe that I've been an animal in my past life or that I was supposed to be one in this, but I really can't exclude the possibility either because there's no way to know, really.

Offline Aerisyka

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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2005, 06:20:39 pm »
I believe in reincarnation, and have had recurring dreams of what I feel could have been my past lives. These dreams are not only recurring, but when I have them it feels like déjà vu. Even at times when I’m not asleep, if I think about them I get the same inexplicable feeling of having been there. I believe that I was once a border collie, and also possibly a cat. There’s also a recurring memory I have of being on the grounds of a castle, in the early morning when the sun is just rising over the rolling hills that cover the landscape. This is probably my most vivid, I’ve had this vision since childhood. One of my more recent ones was of this girl who was supposedly my best friend in a past life (again, going off a feeling) and is now, or so my idiot friends like to think, my “bedroom spirit” i.e. a spirit who haunts my room. Whether any of this is true or not, I don’t know. But like I said, I totally believe in past lives/reincarnation, and have always had a strong interest in the metaphysical. Oh, and for the record, I’ve had a transspecies complex my whole life.   '<img'>
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Offline Black Foot

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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2005, 06:33:16 pm »
I feel like I was a Dragon and part of me is also tellin me tht I felt like a wolf as well but I feel like I was a Dragon in the life b4 more then a wolf but since my Dragon is a shapeshifter I guess I can feel like I was both.
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2005, 07:16:24 pm »
Well let me put it this way: I am a shapeshifter. Always have been, past lives and all.

Offline Burr

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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2005, 08:05:20 pm »
Well my question is the same as other skeptics of past life theory and stuff. How come nobody dreams they were a cockroach or anything else rather undesirable in a past life?
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Offline Black Foot

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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2005, 09:04:50 pm »
Quote (Burr @ Feb. 24 2005, 8:05 pm)
Well my question is the same as other skeptics of past life theory and stuff. How come nobody dreams they were a cockroach or anything else rather undesirable in a past life?

to answer that question Burr no 1 thinks small everyone likes to think Big or huge.
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Offline Aerisyka

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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2005, 09:09:05 pm »
Either that, or because insects generally don't have a very long lifespan you would really have no credible memories of being one.
We have a fascination with the darkness, although we're standing in light.
We have the strongest sense of kindness, but we still can't treat our own selves right.

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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2005, 09:33:00 pm »
yea, maybe, i haven't entirely ruled it out yet. But right now I'm just gunna deal with bieng a human, It's hard enough as it is. =P

the one thing i have ruled out is that someone screwed up and put my soul in the wrong body, I'm sorry if you think that happened to you, but um, I think that whatever divine force puts us in human bodies, dosen't sit there gaing "haha lets put this dog/monkey/elephants soul in this human body just to piss them off!" =D

Offline siiwolf

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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2005, 10:39:36 pm »
Quote (romper @ Feb. 24 2005, 9:33 pm)
the one thing i have ruled out is that someone screwed up and put my soul in the wrong body, I'm sorry if you think that happened to you, but um, I think that whatever divine force puts us in human bodies, dosen't sit there gaing "haha lets put this dog/monkey/elephants soul in this human body just to piss them off!" =D

Unless you were bad in a past life, Romper, then they just might '<img'>  I personally believe in the possibility.

Also, very few cultures viewed coming back as an animal was a negative thing. For Hindus, at least in some regions, coming back as a monkey or rat is very holy, same with a lot of Native American cultures. As for christianity, it's a bit awkward. Supposedly christians aren't supposed to believe in reincarnation in the idea of a new physical life, human or otherwise, you simply die and enter heaven forever (or hell) and that's that. But that doesn't really explain anything. It's also interesting to note that if this idea was correct then when Jesus reappared in flesh to his desciples they should have recognized him immediately, but they did not until Jesus was able to prove it.

It's always fun to watch people post their own version of "proof" for or against reincarnation because none of it really holds merit. The only way you'll ever find out is when you die, and if you are born again and forget everything in a past life, even that won't be of much good. Aethiests cannot prove or disprove reincarnation as they are unqualified to address something that is based on beliefs they themselves reject by default. The same holds true for a culture that automatically believes in reincarnation, their proof will hold the same bias, so no matter who you ask you pretty much are left to come to terms with the idea yourself. That's probably not the answer you want, but (I believe) it's going to be the most accurate one you'll get.

There have been many cases where the idea of reincarnation at work is very solid, and also cases where it's been proven to be a hoax. I'm not going to go into more detail with them because with a little research, numerous instances of both can be found.

Offline Jenahfriya

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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2005, 11:21:14 pm »
Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't. I don't really know for sure, but I'm open to the possibility.

I've dreamed I was a spider before... not really sure if it was a past life thing or not. It might just be me being weird again.  '<img'>
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2005, 11:46:58 pm »
Well I for one will tell you that I'm not enlightened enough to remember my past lives. But from the little work I have done on the subject, I will tell you this: In my past life I was a fox or some small mammal (most likely a fox) who was killed by a car near where I currently live. My sole goal of this life was to find the incarnate verson of the driver who ran me over, who will most likely be in the body of some sort of small mammal, and run him over, so our collective Karma could be balanced out.
Well, no, not really, but that would be cool, wouldn't it?

And as to reincarnation in general, I believe in it for a couple of reasons.
First off, science can't explain a lot of things. It can't explain conciousness, for instance. It can't tell you exactly how we clench our hand into a fist, you know. I'd not be able to think that if it can't get that, it really couldn't explain the true nature of death.
Secondly, where were we before we were born? We really can't explain what happens to conciousness after we die, so I'd think that we don't know what happens to it before our life. But in these regards, if you come across anyone who claims to know these things, reagrd them as a fraud, as no one, science or religion, can explain it. You just have to experence it to know.

Offline Burr

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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2005, 08:47:30 am »
Quote (Triad Fox @ Feb. 24 2005, 11:46 pm)
It can't tell you exactly how we clench our hand into a fist, you know.

Actually it can. We can open up your head and stimulate a part of your motor cortex and make you clench your fist. It's all been mapped out already.  '<img'>




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Offline Party Pony

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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2005, 09:29:04 am »
Quote
Secondly, where were we before we were born? We really can't explain what happens to conciousness after we die, so I'd think that we don't know what happens to it before our life.


Then there is the theory that there is only so much conciousness and intelligence in the universe.  As our population increases, the amount of each decreases per person.  That is why folks today show less of both.
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Offline Spike

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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2005, 10:40:11 am »
Nope! Catholic, and i don't believe in reincarnation
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Offline Twilight

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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2005, 01:30:13 pm »
Quote (Party Pony @ Feb. 24 2005, 11:17 am)
ONE CENT:
Maybe you were supposed to be a dog in THIS life...
and the spirit merely got into the wrong body.

i think this is as close as i can get to my explanation ':p'

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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2005, 02:46:52 pm »
Quote (siiwolf @ Feb. 24 2005, 10:39 pm)
It's always fun to watch people post their own version of "proof" for or against reincarnation because none of it really holds merit.

......
I may very well have proof. Assuming of course they managed to fish me out of the river and preserve my body before it rotted away. If they find it...that would be kind of creepy. But if you want proof that would be the best way. Confused? Read this: http://www.livejournal.com/users/cursedeternity/803.html

Quote (romper @ Feb. 24 2005, 9:33 pm)
the one thing i have ruled out is that someone screwed up and put my soul in the wrong body, I'm sorry if you think that happened to you, but um, I think that whatever divine force puts us in human bodies, dosen't sit there gaing "haha lets put this dog/monkey/elephants soul in this human body just to piss them off!" =D

You don't know the gods like I do. They have a very cruel sense of humor. Doesn't matter if you've done something wrong or not. They're like me: completely insane.

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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2005, 04:58:01 pm »
Quote
Unless you were bad in a past life, Romper, then they just might   I personally believe in the possibility


in that case it wouldn't have been an accident.
what i was trying to say is whatvere force is at work, they aren't making mistakes.

P.S. bieng human is a privlage, enjoy it  '<img'>

Offline Sskessa

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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2005, 08:50:21 pm »
No, I don't believe in after life, or in "fate" (that I'm "in the wrong body"). I think when we die, we just die, and there's a simple beauty in that the way it is.
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