Author Topic: Something to ponder ... and maybe rethink/change.  (Read 3348 times)

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Offline River Ceed

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« on: May 12, 2005, 06:56:43 pm »
I'd like to bring something to the attention of the members here.

As defined in the American Heritage Dictionary:

Mundane :adj. 1. Of this world; worldly  2. Typical of or concerned with the ordinary.

Several times in these forums as well as in other places which furs frequent, I've seen furs refer to non-furs as 'mundanes'.  Sometimes it's used in a derogatory tone when complaining about humans in general and by others in a perfectly kind tone when referring to their non fur friends.

Here's my point:
Last I checked, anyone sitting at their pc and typing on a keyboard (furry or non furry) was popped out of a female or grown in a test tube in/of this world.  So everyone falls under the first definition.
And as for the second definition, in the society so typically referred to as mundane, there is a vast diversity of differences in lifestyle, preferrences, and personalities which make those in it (just like the furry community) anything but concerned with the ordinary.  Very few people, of any culture or subculture, strive to be 'ordinary' --and if they ARE doing so, it's because there is something about them which they feel makes them different from the ordinary.

So.... using the term mundane to describe a non fur is a generalization and a stereotype.  Those are two things which, from what I gather from the number of posts in the furry community crying out (and rightly so) about the unfairness of stereotypes and generalizations and how they do not enjoy being grouped like that,  furry members here do not appreciate.

So, using that information, I pose the question : Is it really fair or kindhearted to impose that kind of generalization upon another group who merely do not share some of the same tastes as yourselves?

Something else to consider is -- regardless of furry or non furry, there are enough aspects of furry society which mesh into other aspects of human society with no difference in preferrence at all.  Examples : BDSM enjoyment, homosexuality, heterosexuality, art trades and collecting of good art, writing talent, photography, conventions, love for nature and animals, vegitarianism, carnivorism, chatting, dressing up in outfits to get noticed,  sharing lives troubles and forming friendships.  All of these things can be found in both furry and non furry cultures in society.  So there's not too much 'ordinary' about it.  (So if all those diversities ARE what makes up 'ordinary', then why not refer to members of both furry and non furry culture?  Did you find yourself getting slightly offended at the thought of calling yourselves or your furry friends 'mundane'?  I'd hope not, but if you did... you need to ask yourself why and maybe you'll see my point better.)

With that in mind, I'd like to propose that the term 'mundane' cease being used to describe non-furs.  It's a bit tastless and rude in my opinion, especially when furries really aren't that different from anyone else.  Acceptance comes in two forms...being accepted by society in spite of the few details or differences a group has (which is a goal of the furry community from what I can see) and accepting aspects of society similar to one's own without putting them down.

Share your opinions to enlighten or encourage me, as you wish.  I just felt it should be said.

~River





Offline Party Pony

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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2005, 07:25:27 pm »
Fully agree with you.

"Mundane" is an 'ancient' term from furry's early days as a sci-fi spin-off.  
Sci-fi fans, since the 60s, have referred to non-sci-fi fans as 'mundanes'.  

Always bothers me when I hear furs talking about purposely acting 'extremely furry' in public to 'freak out the mundanes.'  Name calling is one of the most juvenile, cruel and common ways groups attempt to elevate themselves.  Guess furs doing it simply makes them "typical"... and mundane.
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Offline Burr

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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2005, 07:36:10 pm »
I never thought people used it all that seriously. Well I don't anyway. The only time I use the word mundane is to make fun of other furs who use it seriously. That and the word hyooman.  '<img'>

Anyway I agree with most of what you said, but a lot of times a word is just a word and just used to be silly or as a shortcut of what is really meant to be said without being derogatory. I definitely do not agree with the whole us vs. them mentality.
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Offline Sunookitsune

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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2005, 09:04:21 pm »
I use the word "mundane" on occasion. However, I've never meant it as anything other that a synonym for "non-fur". I really don't use it that much anyways though.

Offline Nikko

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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2005, 09:09:30 pm »
Quote
So.... using the term mundane to describe a non fur is a generalization and a stereotype.  Those are two things which, from what I gather from the number of posts in the furry community crying out (and rightly so) about the unfairness of stereotypes and generalizations and how they do not enjoy being grouped like that,  furry members here do not appreciate.


 I would have to dissagree. Words like Mundain used how we used them is a simple fast way to classify others. Yes technicaly the only difference if furryness however for furrys everything not furry is rather mundain and ordinary. Furry is a bit extream in our culture and so I am not surprised that the early furz found and used this word in the way that they did. yes it has different condentations but... dosn't alot of other words that you know.

 In the end this is probly one of the last things that I would crusade personaly. Yes your a mundain but I think you and I both know that you have plenty of furry palz to keep you company and that you don't really have to worry about that being much of a strike against you in the fandom.

 Have a Mei Thi and just relax, there is still alot for you to learn. I wouldn't take any realy offence to mundain . it's just a classification. Just like furry, otherkin, plushie or any other furry word.

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Offline Mika Feldy

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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2005, 10:42:45 pm »
I think Mundane is ok to use, after all, it's just a word.
In the furry world, it just means a non fur.
It's just a word, like yiff, scritch, ect.

Offline RavenWolf

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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2005, 10:43:25 pm »
mundane is also a word us 'pagans' use to define non-wiccans/druids/whatever. But the word "pagan," which I hate and never use to define myself, was created by the Christians to ridicule and persecute those of religious different from them.

Dose anyone else sees the irony in this? In reality, the word mundane can be used by any group to define everyone else not like them
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Offline Arbutus

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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2005, 11:32:42 pm »
I'm a bit confused... do furs in general use "mundane" more as a derogatory word, or just as a normal way to refer to everyone who's not furry? I've never used the word myself, but I was under the impression that it was mostly just a playful synonym for "non-fur."

Offline Far_Raptor

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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2005, 11:38:22 pm »
Quote
Did you find yourself getting slightly offended at the thought of calling yourselves or your furry friends 'mundane'?


Mundane. (do people really say that???)

I think that’s the most ridiculous word for describing anyone, furry or non-furry.  I can’t see how anyone on the recieving end of it (using it in this context) would find a ‘positive’ meaning in it; I know I certainly wouldn’t.  While I wouldn't be mortally offended by being called 'mundane,' I would think the person using it was a moron.

To me it shows a superiority complex.  I.e.: I live a vastly more interesting life than you.  

How rediculous.  I completely agree with River.  I don't see why anyone would want to use it.


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Offline P_Z

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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2005, 03:57:06 am »
I don't use that term. Some furs say "mundanes" because they think it's so thrilling, so outlandish to be a fur, therefore the rest of the world is mundane.

Offline Koneko

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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2005, 02:18:04 pm »
lol, I never used the word mundane as I thought it sounded too geeky.
But I guess really it suggests that non-furs are boring and dull.
This is definitly untrue as I know quite a few non-furs who are just as strange as I am. '<img'>
Personally, I think it is a bit derogatory and I can see how non-furs would be offended by it.
Oh well, we can always find another, less offensive, word for non-furs.  How about "baldies"? Wait, that's no good. How about "pant-wearers"?  '<img'>

Offline River Ceed

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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2005, 03:15:48 pm »
LOL well I enjoyed all of your posts thus far.  The one before this using 'pant wearers' as a possible substitute word had me laughing my butt off.  Why?  Because it strikes me as funny to want to use that word to describe non-furs when a great deal of furry artwork out there includes the subjects wearing pants and other articles of clothing.  Just personal observation of my own which made the comment humerous (as I am sure it was intended, but perhaps from a different standpoint).

As far as me personally being offended by the use of mundane to describe a non fur... I don't personally take it to heart that much.  My thoughts were pretty much aimed at improving how other non-furs would see the furry fandom if a word meaning ordinary or less then was used to term them.  Many people here seem concerned with how to present a positive image of furries to others who know little to nothing of the culture.  Beginning by making it a friend atmosphere, including what those who aren't in the furry world are called is part of that.

(After all, how many of you would want to visit or learn about a group of people who said "Sure.. you can be a member and come right in... freak.  Oh..don't mind the term 'freak', we mean it completely innocently.  It's what we call people who aren't like us."  That is how using 'mundane' to term a non-fur can come off to some people who have a grasp of the word's meaning, just as the term freak brings about a defensive nature in some people.  In addition, the tone it's used in can also mean all the difference.  In a rant where someone is complaining about humans and how they are soooo mundane and stupid, it's a little hard to miss the intended meaning.)

And yeah it's still used.  Actually here on Furtopia is where I saw it used in a few topics and wondered if it was just a few furries who really felt that way (using it derogatorily) or was it a more widley accepted term with perhaps a changed meaning.

I just wanted to see where you all stood in it's usage and acceptance.  Someone mentioned that if they heard it in reference to a person who wasn't a furry, they would think the speaker is an idiot.  Yep... I've had my fair share of thinking such to myself (about alot of things and people, not just some furries) and in this instance, wanted to see if anyone was on the same wavelength as I.  

Thanks for posting.  I look forward to any more replies.

~River

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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2005, 06:14:22 pm »
id be really offended if someone called me a mundane, its basicly calling a person a boring uninteresting person. its actualy quite offensive, at least to me. and calling someone something potentialy offensive because they are not part of a specific group is on par with calling people things because they ARE part of a specific group and as such can be likened to racism of sorts.

Offline River Ceed

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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2005, 08:06:43 pm »
Yep, Ackron, that's the perception I was explaining could be taken in furry communities using that term of mundane for non-fur.  The reason I don't take it to heart personally is basically because I am not one to whine or obsess over whether or not someone likes me or what they think. Especially when the questionable behavior is taking place online.  Very little online is ever taken to heart by me....a lesson I learn early on in my chatting and internet experience.  In person, it's not any different except the person would lose alot, if not all, respect I had for them prior, if any. And I also hold the opinion that what you do comes back to you in life eventually, so I figure if someone's rude, it will come to them full circle, but that I don't have to be the one to bring them that lesson.  After all, then it would mean I would have something unpleasant to look forward to. :-)

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Offline GunSlinger

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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2005, 09:48:49 pm »
I don't like to think that deep?  ':p'
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Offline Kassandra_Haymer

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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2005, 07:21:55 pm »
Nicely put.

I've only encoutered the term since coming here, and, while I think I may have picked it up as a slip of the tongue now and then, it has always struck me as a rather odd phasology.

I don't really think we need a phrase like it either. NoneFur conveys it all well enough and Anti-Fur, when applicable, should cover the more venemous persons outside our little community.

That said, generalisation seems to be a core part of human nature, otherwise why the term  Furry at all? There are so many different types of Furry after all. I wouldnt be surprised if most furs just accepted it as a general phrase with derogatory undertones and stuck to it. Thus, even if it where now to be banned from use, or just concensually dropped by all here, it probably wouldn't be long before someone found something else to use in a derogatory context. =/

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Offline blackfox

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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2005, 06:46:15 pm »
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Mundane

theres far worse insults out there - and the meaning *here* isnt as negative as its actual meaning.

i wouldnt worry about it.

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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2005, 08:34:03 pm »
I never used the word, but if I did I would use it to refer to the majority who don't give a flip about anything that doesn't involve them directly. That is to say, the kind of people who don't vote in elections because they feel that it doesn't matter who the president is.

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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2005, 11:48:27 am »
I call em Peeps or hoomans or hyooman beans.

Offline Simo

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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2005, 02:49:40 am »
Quote

With that in mind, I'd like to propose that the term 'mundane' cease being used to describe non-furs.  It's a bit tastless and rude in my opinion, especially when furries really aren't that different from anyone else.  Acceptance comes in two forms...being accepted by society in spite of the few details or differences a group has (which is a goal of the furry community from what I can see) and accepting aspects of society similar to one's own without putting them down.

Share your opinions to enlighten or encourage me, as you wish.  I just felt it should be said.


No! Absolutely not.

The term "mundane", to describe non-fandom affiliates, is part of our heritage. Furry-dom inherited this bit of terminology from our forebearers: the UNIX hackers. In the UNIX hacker subculture, they had a couple of terms: mundane -- meaning those who did not work in any comp-sci field. What we'd call "computer illiterate" these days. In hacker speak, this was never meant, nor intended, as an insult.

The UNIX hackers also had another term: "suits". This was a derogatory term to describe the lowest of the low: the atechnological pencil-pushers who controlled the IT depts. of colleges and corporations who held the purse strings, and yet were ignorant of the field. It was even worse if the "suits" made descisions, not based on technology, but rather economic expediency.

Let "P.C." infect the mundane world.  '<img'>

Let's keep our heritage alive.   '<img'>
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Offline Skunki

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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2005, 12:15:20 am »
interesting definitions. lets break it down:

1. of this world, worldly: last time i checked, anthros are fantasy creatures and non-existent, and are therefore not of this world. "mundanes" do not have alot of fantasies about anthros and "furry" creatures.

2. typical or concerned with ordinary: are furries seen as ordinary people? many websites suggest "no". ordinary people are the trendies.

i hope this makes sense.
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2005, 12:39:07 am »
Its Funny, Mundane, as you stated, means of this world, so the definition of Supermundane, would be out of this world. So, technically, a therian could be considered as beliving or being in touch with the supermundane.

As a therian, i do find it dificult to belive that i was put in a human body by accident. The were site ive recentley being inhabiting also has this belife, that all weres are supposed to be human.

Humor me for a moment. Considering reincarnation happens to be true, and is not limited to humans. Then, my spirit would have inhabited many other forms besides a wolf. It may have been a tree for example. I belive, that the residual memories of my spirits inhabitation of a wolf were so strong, that it passed over into this form. Tipping the hat to intelligent design, i am supposed to be a human, and as far as i can tell, physical shifting is nonsence. I will give my scion XB to anyone that can prove to me without a doubt that they can PHYSICALLY shift.

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Offline Patrick Rangerwolf

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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2005, 10:18:42 am »
Reminds me of the word, "muggle" from The Harry Potter series, a word that defines as a non-magic user.  It could be a funny word, but in the Chamber of Secrets, it was a term of insult even more as we discover Ron was the product of a non-magic using human/sorcerer marriage.

Personally, I think anyone setting themself apart as different is okay.  We all try to assert individuality, but when you set yourself up as different and higher than others, then you set yourself up to fall and fall hard.
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Offline weredog

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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2005, 04:49:17 pm »
No one is really "mundane" anyway.Human ,Therian, otherkin or Furry We all have our quirks and our different ways of doing things.Everyone is an individual inb some way.

Offline Nikko

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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2005, 08:25:02 pm »
Quote (RavenWolf @ May 12 2005, 10:43 pm)
mundane is also a word us 'pagans' use to define non-wiccans/druids/whatever. But the word "pagan," which I hate and never use to define myself, was created by the Christians to ridicule and persecute those of religious different from them.

Dose anyone else sees the irony in this? In reality, the word mundane can be used by any group to define everyone else not like them

'<img'>  While the term "christian" was created to make fun of those who follow christ. so really I guess it's all good.


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