Author Topic: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)  (Read 48080 times)

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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2011, 10:01:20 am »


I only have one question!
Where...IS...LUNA?!?!
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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2011, 01:09:30 pm »
Well.... So where do we go to start a pettition to bring Discord back?

Anyone know Jayson Theissen's twitter/facebook?
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Offline 489109

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2011, 01:16:44 pm »
Discord and Luna are playing Horseshoes in some distant and long forgot resort in the EverFree Forest. Zecora is the referee of the game and the Great and Powerful Trixie is playing the winner.

Okay artists, here is your challenge: Draw that scene as described above.

Offline Ziel

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2011, 03:57:53 pm »
Finally just got to watch episode 2. Honestly, not one of my favorites. it was rather rushed, and could have had a more creative resolution.

Don't get me wrong, there were parts I enjoyed, and it get get me to chuckle a few times (mostly at the gray ponies not getting along because it's just so out of character). I liked the references back to lessons learned in season 1. Oh, and the whole capturing of RD was awesome (highlight of the episode IMO). I just wish some of the end there weren't quite so rushed.

I look forward to the next episode, where they should be going back to the slice-of-life format that I enjoy so much.

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Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2011, 06:07:09 pm »
The final scene of Episode Two is just so full of win it is almost indescribable. Not going to spoil it for anyone, but I have to say it was beyond all expectations. Everypony is going to love it and if you don't I will be flabbergasted.

Then be glabbergasted. I'm not a fan of Star Wars, so that ending was a bit of a cringe for me. Not really complaining, just had to prove you wrong. :P

I also feel the second part had a rushed feeling, even for not needing to re-introduce everyone.  I will watch it again soon I'm sure, and I'll see if I can put my finger on it. I think it seemed like the whole episode was *gotta go do this... no that... now this other thing... hurry hurry hurry.* So not so much rushed as in getting to the resolution quick, but rushed as in not very many low key points in the episode where the action had a chance to die down. Though I did love how Pinky Pie had to hold off the final attack just a few more seconds so she could get a last drink of chocolate rain. :D
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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2011, 06:48:45 pm »
I agree that it felt rushed, the ending sequence was awesome though. :)

I dunno, I lovedd the episode but I just can't shake the sam feeling everypony haas about it going by so fast.
Maybe we built ourselves up too much?
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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2011, 08:34:45 pm »
One thing I'd like to address is the return of Celestia's trollish behavior.

Spike getting the letters back.

So Twilight and the others fail to seal away Discord, Spike (the Rainbow Dash replacement) goes back upstairs where he begins getting the letters back, this is about the exact same time that Twilight succumbs and turns grey and begins wandering Ponyville. She returns later on and finds Spike and the letters, reads them and gets her color back. :)

Now, How did Celestia know that Twilight had succumbed? Was she watchin the whole thing? If so why didn't she step in to help? Or step in right then and talk to Twilight and tell her to remember her friendships? Why go back to the castle and start sending letters back through Spike? Or letss say she wasn't watching? How'd she know Twilight succumbed to Discord's power? And if she didn't know then why send the letters back?
If it was only to help Twilight and Celestia was indeed watching her then how come after Twilight getss her color back does Spike keep recieving letters?

Honestly the more I watch the scene it seems more to me like Celestia was just trying to be mean...
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Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2011, 12:05:01 am »
Reading through you post, I was initially thinking that Cellestia may or may not have been watching. It could work either way. If she was watching, then she figured Twilight reading her own words would be a lot more powerful than anyone else trying to get her to remember (much like how it didn't work when Twilight tried to explain the spell away to the other ponies). She needed something that hit home, like her letters, to break the spell.

After reading to the end of your post and the mention of Spike still burping letters (I felt bad for him. That couldn't have felt good at all after so many) after Twilight was back to normal, I'm now leaning more towards my other line of thinking. Cellestia may not have known what was happening to Twilight. She may have been thinking that Twilight just didn't know how to break the spell over the other ponies. She could have observed the spells starting from the castle while still in the maze, even if she couldn't monitor them in Ponyville through magic or something. So Cellestia figured out what needed to be done and sending all those letters back was the only way she could get Twilight to see that she needed to put those memories back in the other 5 so that she could break the spell. That would explain why the letters kept coming after Twilight's own spell was broke, because Cellestia didn't even know that had happened.

Or, it could have been my original thought, and that last letter was just Cellestia being Trollestia, aka writers throwing it in for a bit of comic relief and not meant to tie into the plot so much. :P

EDIT: WOAH... Now I'm wondering. Did Cellestia know from Season 1 episode 1 that this was going to go down? I remember thinking way back when that making out reports on "the power of friendship" seemed kinda like pointless work. Turns out it served a purpose. Is that why Cellestia made Twilight write them all, so she could use them to break the spell by Discord later? :o
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 12:10:26 am by Narei Mooncatt »
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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2011, 09:59:54 am »
Reading through you post, I was initially thinking that Cellestia may or may not have been watching. It could work either way. If she was watching, then she figured Twilight reading her own words would be a lot more powerful than anyone else trying to get her to remember (much like how it didn't work when Twilight tried to explain the spell away to the other ponies). She needed something that hit home, like her letters, to break the spell.

After reading to the end of your post and the mention of Spike still burping letters (I felt bad for him. That couldn't have felt good at all after so many) after Twilight was back to normal, I'm now leaning more towards my other line of thinking. Cellestia may not have known what was happening to Twilight. She may have been thinking that Twilight just didn't know how to break the spell over the other ponies. She could have observed the spells starting from the castle while still in the maze, even if she couldn't monitor them in Ponyville through magic or something. So Cellestia figured out what needed to be done and sending all those letters back was the only way she could get Twilight to see that she needed to put those memories back in the other 5 so that she could break the spell. That would explain why the letters kept coming after Twilight's own spell was broke, because Cellestia didn't even know that had happened.

Or, it could have been my original thought, and that last letter was just Cellestia being Trollestia, aka writers throwing it in for a bit of comic relief and not meant to tie into the plot so much. :P

EDIT: WOAH... Now I'm wondering. Did Cellestia know from Season 1 episode 1 that this was going to go down? I remember thinking way back when that making out reports on "the power of friendship" seemed kinda like pointless work. Turns out it served a purpose. Is that why Cellestia made Twilight write them all, so she could use them to break the spell by Discord later? :o
Very interesting theories Narei, I've often wondered if everything thats happened thus far was engeneired by Celestia, like Allowing Nightmare to return because she knew Twi and the others had the abilit to purify her and turn her back into Luna, so she let it all happen to get her little sister back. But I never though about the friendship reports thing you just brought up.

Hmm... I dunno... Maybe Celestia isn't quite as bad as we've been led to think? :o

No, it can't be...  (:
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Offline Ziel

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2011, 01:29:15 pm »
I was contemplating this very thing this morning on the way to work.

Does Celestia have almost a god-like presence, rather that simply being the princess? (And dangit I wish they would have let her be Queen, because that's basically what she is anyhow, aside from her title itself).

The same scene is what had me wondering. I mean, the letters were first and foremost to un-gray Twilight. If they weren't, that means it was just a stroke of luck that they happened to snap her out of it, or else the whole place would have been stuck in chaos forever. They also were so that she would know how to help her friends, but that could only happen after Twilight learned (or re-learned) her lessons. But from everything that has happened in the show so far, I think luck has little to do with it. That would be far too many lucky coincidences in such a small group of ponies...

With this, and other instances of similar omniscience, I do feel like she's a more god-like figure in the grand scheme of things. She also definitely has the immortal feel to her as well.

But she does the proper thing and never directly interferes with a task. She might assign a task, or help somebody figure something out (usually through indirect means), but she never steps in and uses magic to simply fix things.

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Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2011, 01:59:02 pm »
She also definitely has the immortal feel to her as well.
Geeze, ya think? She's only over a thousand years old. :D
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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2011, 02:18:15 pm »
She also definitely has the immortal feel to her as well.
Geeze, ya think? She's only over a thousand years old. :D
Uses magic to raise both sun and moon. (I still wonder if she's given the moon back to Luna).
Seems to be the biggest Pony in Equestria. Though maybe sh's more of a horse? The Gala episode shows mice turned into HORSES and this makes me wonder if ponies and horses are supposed to be different species in the show. (Yes I know in real life a pony is not a baby horse but simply a smaller breed)
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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2011, 06:11:47 pm »
I was contemplating this very thing this morning on the way to work.

Does Celestia have almost a god-like presence, rather that simply being the princess? (And dangit I wish they would have let her be Queen, because that's basically what she is anyhow, aside from her title itself).

The same scene is what had me wondering. I mean, the letters were first and foremost to un-gray Twilight. If they weren't, that means it was just a stroke of luck that they happened to snap her out of it, or else the whole place would have been stuck in chaos forever. They also were so that she would know how to help her friends, but that could only happen after Twilight learned (or re-learned) her lessons. But from everything that has happened in the show so far, I think luck has little to do with it. That would be far too many lucky coincidences in such a small group of ponies...

With this, and other instances of similar omniscience, I do feel like she's a more god-like figure in the grand scheme of things. She also definitely has the immortal feel to her as well.

But she does the proper thing and never directly interferes with a task. She might assign a task, or help somebody figure something out (usually through indirect means), but she never steps in and uses magic to simply fix things.

Remember it's a little girls show, and they love the princess thing. Also queens
tend to be the bad guys in some kiddie stories.

I kind of wonder where all the hi brow ponies are.   So far I have
only seen them at the Galloping Gala.
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Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2011, 06:50:28 pm »
Also queens tend to be the bad guys in some kiddie stories.
Apparently we have Disney to thank for that according to Lauren Faust. She originally wanted Cellestia to be Queen.

Quote
I kind of wonder where all the hi brow ponies are.   So far I have only seen them at the Galloping Gala.
They all live in Manehatten and Fillydelphia. :P
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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2011, 07:45:16 pm »

Apparently we have Disney to thank for that according to Lauren Faust. She originally wanted Cellestia to be Queen.

This. In the interview with Faust posted on Equestria Daily, Lauren had planned for Celestia to be queen. But apparently this was nixed by Hasbro because queens tend to be evil for whatever reason. Honestly, she's still filling the role of queen, just with the title of princess. While it's true that Disney tends to portray the queens as evil, there's also usually a queen somewhere when a princess is involved. We have yet to even hear mention of a queen whatsoever.

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2011, 08:16:13 pm »
It was just awesome. That's all I can really say on the topic.

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2011, 10:25:02 pm »
Yeah I have to agree with the whole "It's Disney's fault" thing but if you want a "In Canon" reason I have always figured that since Luna and Celestia rule together they decided to be equals and both have the title of "Princess" rather than take the title of "Queen". This would imply that neither one has total or absolute power of the land, tht control is shared.

After Luna turned into NMM and was banished I'd say Celestia kept the title in honor of her sister and their agreement to share power.

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We were meant to rule together little sister.

Anyway thats my explanation.
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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2011, 07:15:18 am »
I was out of town at a vintage computer fair over the weekend, so I didn't get a chance to watch part two of "The Return of Harmony" on my DVR until just a few minutes ago.  I will discuss my feelings about the episode in a moment, but first I want to respond to Kaloyan Alett's reply to my earlier post, since I have been wanting to get a chance to do that for some time.

Well Nightmare Moon didn't actually come about due to her resentment, Lauren Faust has stated several tims that it was due to magic. An outside force (I speculate Discord) turned her into Nightmare Moon.

When I had mentioned in my previous post that I had enjoyed the villain Nightmare Moon because she hadn't started out evil but slowly became evil over time because she let her resentfulness towards her sister consume her, I wasn't speculating on Nightmare Moon's creation, but directly referencing an episode of MIL:FiM itself.  The narrator stated during the opening of the first episode of MLP:FiM, "Friendship is Magic - Part 1,":

"Once upon a time in the magical land of Equestria there were two regal sisters that ruled together and created harmony for all the land.  To do this, the eldest used her unicorn powers to raise the sun at dawn.  The younger brought out the moon to begin the night.  Thus the two sisters maintained balance for their kingdom and their subjects, all of the different types of ponies.  But as time went on, the younger sister became resentful.  The ponies relished and played in the day that her sister brought forth but shunned and slept through her beautiful night.  One fateful day the younger unicorn refused to lower the moon to make way for the dawn.  The elder sister tried to reason with her, but the bitterness in the young one's heart had transformed her into a wicked mare of darkness, Nightmare Moon."

So the show itself stated that the reason why Princess Luna slowly transformed into the evil Nightmare Moon was because she allowed her resentment and bitterness towards her consume her.  Ms. Faust possibly may have said something contradicting what the episode itself stated in some interview later (I don't know personally, since I haven't read any of her interviews), but when it comes to my own personal interpretation of the Nightmare Moon character I am going to stick with the show itself because what actually appears in the show is canon.  If a later episode of MLP:FiM comes along and retcons the Princess Luna character as always being completely good and only becoming evil after being intentionally transformed by some outside evil magical source like you stated then I will go along with it, but until then I will stick to the what has been shown in the episodes that have aired.

Also Discord is the spirit of Chaos itself so its in his nature to be faily evil and cruel seeming...So I'd say in this episode he isn't evil for the sake of it, he's getting revenge for having his kingdom stolen out from under him and being imprisoned for over a millenium.

I will agree that Discord would have some cause for revenge in the current episodes for being locked in stone for thousands of years, but as I mentioned in my previous post in this thread that still doesn't give him any motivation for his past actions of evil.  As Princess Celestia explained to the ponies inside the castle in part 1, Discord kept Equestria in an eternal state of "unrest and unhappiness," and that both her and Princess Luna felt compelled to move against him because of how "miserable" he was making the ponies.  What was Discord's reasons for throwing the ancient land of Equestria into misery like this?  The show gives no motives for his actions, and instead explains that Discord does what he does because he is the "mischievous spirit of disharmony."  Given Discord's past history, I have a feeling that he would have eagerly turned Equestria upside-down like he did in the episode whether he was entrapped in stone by Celestia and Luna beforehand or not.  Because of this, I strongly feel that Discord largely fits the TVTropes.org website's trope for the "Generic Doomsday Villain."

As a result, just like I mentioned in my last post, I am still underwhelmed by Discord as I have a personal distaste for villains that are evil "just because" since I can't personally relate to them.  To quote part of the article about Generic Doomsday Villains from TVTropes, "...on an In-Universe level — the level on which the audience relates to the story and suspends disbelief — what matters is whether the character is consistent and coherent and has a compelling reason to do what they do. Just like a good hero, a good villain is someone we care about, either because they're someone we empathize with or because they're someone we love to hate. A Generic Doomsday Villain is neither of these things."  I have to agree with this assessment wholeheartedly.  I can't get myself to care about Discord because he gives me no reason to empathize with him, hate him, relate to him, etc.  He is just some ancient "spirit of disharmony" bringing about the destruction of the world through chocolate rain because, well, because that is just what he enjoys doing.  *yawn*  If you happened to love the Discord character that's great-- more power to you.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about him.  I just happened to be very underwhelmed by him myself, and unless future episodes of the show give me some reason to care about him I don't have any interest in ever seeing him make a reappearance in future episodes either.

About part 2 of "The Return of Harmony," there was once again elements that I enjoyed about the episode and elements that I didn't.  To start off with the things that I didn't like, one of the things that I mentioned in my last post that I was concerned about with this story arc was the all-powerful nature of Discord, and how it could possibly force the show's writers to use a "deus ex machina" plot device (the unexpected introduction of a convenient new character, ability, or object) to stop him.  This sort of happened in part 2 with Twilight Sparkle suddenly having a convenient "memory spell" at her disposal that could effortlessly turn each of the other "Mane 6" back to their old normal selves.  Now I realize that Twilight Sparkle is the magician of the group, and that she probably has a lot of spells that we haven't seen in the show yet, but since we have never seen the memory spell up until this point where it is surprisingly convenient, it still comes off as a bit of a deus ex machina.  Had the writers introduced Twilight Sparkle's memory spell as a "Chekov's Gun," (a literary technique whereby an unimportant element introduced early in the story becomes significant later on), they could have avoided this.

(As a side note, the scrolls that Twilight Sparkle wrote to the princess about the lessons of friendship that she learned during Season 1 is an excellent example of a Chekov's Gun-- throughout season 1 they were used only as a way to sum up the message of each episode, however they became a key plot element in part 2 of "The Return of Harmony."  As a second side note, wasn't Twilight Sparkle's magic shown to be ineffective against Discord's powers when her "fail-safe" spell failed to work in "The Return of Harmony Part 1?"  How come her magic, in the form of her memory spell, was suddenly able to work against the spells that Discord had placed on the rest of the Mane 6?  Is this a possible continuity error?)

The second thing that I really didn't like about this episode was the nearly suicidal overconfidence that Discord showed towards the Mane 6 when he was confronted by them and the Elements of Harmony the second time after Twilight Sparkle had restored her friends back to normal.  Despite the fact that the Mane 6 were no longer under his power, and that they were armed with the same magical artifacts that had defeated him and brought his first reign of chaos to an end thousands of years ago, he shows absolutely no concern about them what-so-ever and even sits, barely interested, yawning in a chair as they blast and defeat him unchallenged.  This really disappointed me because this was supposed to be the *climax* of the story arc, and due to Discord's complete dismissal of his foes it was completely lacking in any sort of tension or excitement.  Or in other words, the climax was anti-climatic.  There was no final struggle and the final battle was completely one-sided.  Where was the danger for the heroes?  Where was the risk to them? The climax is supposed to be the most exciting part of the story, but instead it was overshadowed by the attempt by the heroes to catch and restore Rainbow Dash.  I spent an entire week wondering how the heros were going to defeat an all-powerful villain like Discord, and instead Discord just sat back in a chair and let the ponies defeat him.  How disappointing.

As far as what I enjoyed about the episode goes, like Ziel I very much enjoyed how the ponies acted out-of-character when they were gray.  Some of the antics of gray-Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie, and Rarity were pretty funny.  The funniest moment for me however was the whole scene where Twilight Sparkle finally finds the Elements of Harmony hidden in her book in her Library-- that whole scene is great!  I love how she calls her element the "big crown thingie!"  I love when she hastily promotes Spike to be "the new Rainbow Dash!"  And I also love how she yells "Look out!  Here comes Tom!" when she chucks Rarity's bolder out of the library's window with her magic!  The before-mentioned chase scene where Twilight and her friends were trying to catch and restore the gray-Rainbow Dash was also very very good.  The Star Wars spoof ending was kind of cliche to me, but it didn't really bother me either way.  Overall I did like part 2 much better than I liked part 1, but even so the combined "The Return of Harmony" parts 1 and 2 is still one of my least favorite episodes.  I have to cast this story arc onto the very bottom of my MLP:FiM list along with "A Dog and Pony Show" as my least favorite episodes.  I don't think that any MLP:FiM episode is truly bad mind you-- I just happened to like those less than the rest.

Well.... So where do we go to start a pettition to bring Discord back?

According to part 1, Discord was able to break Luna and Celestia's spell and break free from the statue because Luna and Celestia no longer controlled the Elements of Harmony-- the Mane 6 now control them.  Therefore, it begs to reason that if the Mane 6 ever pass control of the Elements of Harmony onto some other ponies the Mane 6's spell over Discord will break as well, and Discord will escape again.  So there is an open-ended way for Discord to escape.  You're not going to see me signing any petitions to make it happen though.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 08:59:07 am by Hoagiebot »

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2011, 09:28:13 am »



I kind of wonder where all the hi brow ponies are.   So far I have only seen them at the Galloping Gala.
They all live in Manehatten and Fillydelphia. :P

Ahh.. makes sense to me.  :D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 09:32:29 am by Old Rabbit »
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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2011, 11:04:48 am »
After looking at (but not really reading) the previous walls of text I must quote something to everypony from the immortal "Mystery Science Theatre 3000" Show:

Quote from: MST3K
Just repeat to yourself, 'It's just a show, I should really just relax'.

To paraphrase; Sit back, Relax and have a homebrewed drink. Y'all are overcomplicating it.

Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2011, 01:55:52 pm »
After looking at (but not really reading) the previous walls of text I must quote something to everypony from the immortal "Mystery Science Theatre 3000" Show:

Quote from: MST3K
Just repeat to yourself, 'It's just a show, I should really just relax'.

To paraphrase; Sit back, Relax and have a homebrewed drink. Y'all are overcomplicating it.
Liedt, I hate to say you're right... So I won't. :)

We're nerds in a nerd debate about a show we enjoy. Walls of text are an inevitability as is taking a childrens' cartoon way more seriously and in depth in detail than it waas ever meant to be taken.
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Offline Kobuk

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2011, 02:36:26 pm »
I was out of town at a vintage computer fair over the weekend, so I didn't get a chance to watch part two of "The Return of Harmony" on my DVR until just a few minutes ago.  I will discuss my feelings about the episode in a moment, but first I want to respond to Kaloyan Alett's reply to my earlier post, since I have been wanting to get a chance to do that for some time.

Well Nightmare Moon didn't actually come about due to her resentment, Lauren Faust has stated several tims that it was due to magic. An outside force (I speculate Discord) turned her into Nightmare Moon.

When I had mentioned in my previous post that I had enjoyed the villain Nightmare Moon because she hadn't started out evil but slowly became evil over time because she let her resentfulness towards her sister consume her, I wasn't speculating on Nightmare Moon's creation, but directly referencing an episode of MIL:FiM itself.  The narrator stated during the opening of the first episode of MLP:FiM, "Friendship is Magic - Part 1,":

"Once upon a time in the magical land of Equestria there were two regal sisters that ruled together and created harmony for all the land.  To do this, the eldest used her unicorn powers to raise the sun at dawn.  The younger brought out the moon to begin the night.  Thus the two sisters maintained balance for their kingdom and their subjects, all of the different types of ponies.  But as time went on, the younger sister became resentful.  The ponies relished and played in the day that her sister brought forth but shunned and slept through her beautiful night.  One fateful day the younger unicorn refused to lower the moon to make way for the dawn.  The elder sister tried to reason with her, but the bitterness in the young one's heart had transformed her into a wicked mare of darkness, Nightmare Moon."

So the show itself stated that the reason why Princess Luna slowly transformed into the evil Nightmare Moon was because she allowed her resentment and bitterness towards her consume her.  Ms. Faust possibly may have said something contradicting what the episode itself stated in some interview later (I don't know personally, since I haven't read any of her interviews), but when it comes to my own personal interpretation of the Nightmare Moon character I am going to stick with the show itself because what actually appears in the show is canon.  If a later episode of MLP:FiM comes along and retcons the Princess Luna character as always being completely good and only becoming evil after being intentionally transformed by some outside evil magical source like you stated then I will go along with it, but until then I will stick to the what has been shown in the episodes that have aired.

Also Discord is the spirit of Chaos itself so its in his nature to be faily evil and cruel seeming...So I'd say in this episode he isn't evil for the sake of it, he's getting revenge for having his kingdom stolen out from under him and being imprisoned for over a millenium.

I will agree that Discord would have some cause for revenge in the current episodes for being locked in stone for thousands of years, but as I mentioned in my previous post in this thread that still doesn't give him any motivation for his past actions of evil.  As Princess Celestia explained to the ponies inside the castle in part 1, Discord kept Equestria in an eternal state of "unrest and unhappiness," and that both her and Princess Luna felt compelled to move against him because of how "miserable" he was making the ponies.  What was Discord's reasons for throwing the ancient land of Equestria into misery like this?  The show gives no motives for his actions, and instead explains that Discord does what he does because he is the "mischievous spirit of disharmony."  Given Discord's past history, I have a feeling that he would have eagerly turned Equestria upside-down like he did in the episode whether he was entrapped in stone by Celestia and Luna beforehand or not.  Because of this, I strongly feel that Discord largely fits the TVTropes.org website's trope for the "Generic Doomsday Villain."

As a result, just like I mentioned in my last post, I am still underwhelmed by Discord as I have a personal distaste for villains that are evil "just because" since I can't personally relate to them.  To quote part of the article about Generic Doomsday Villains from TVTropes, "...on an In-Universe level — the level on which the audience relates to the story and suspends disbelief — what matters is whether the character is consistent and coherent and has a compelling reason to do what they do. Just like a good hero, a good villain is someone we care about, either because they're someone we empathize with or because they're someone we love to hate. A Generic Doomsday Villain is neither of these things."  I have to agree with this assessment wholeheartedly.  I can't get myself to care about Discord because he gives me no reason to empathize with him, hate him, relate to him, etc.  He is just some ancient "spirit of disharmony" bringing about the destruction of the world through chocolate rain because, well, because that is just what he enjoys doing.  *yawn*  If you happened to love the Discord character that's great-- more power to you.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about him.  I just happened to be very underwhelmed by him myself, and unless future episodes of the show give me some reason to care about him I don't have any interest in ever seeing him make a reappearance in future episodes either.

About part 2 of "The Return of Harmony," there was once again elements that I enjoyed about the episode and elements that I didn't.  To start off with the things that I didn't like, one of the things that I mentioned in my last post that I was concerned about with this story arc was the all-powerful nature of Discord, and how it could possibly force the show's writers to use a "deus ex machina" plot device (the unexpected introduction of a convenient new character, ability, or object) to stop him.  This sort of happened in part 2 with Twilight Sparkle suddenly having a convenient "memory spell" at her disposal that could effortlessly turn each of the other "Mane 6" back to their old normal selves.  Now I realize that Twilight Sparkle is the magician of the group, and that she probably has a lot of spells that we haven't seen in the show yet, but since we have never seen the memory spell up until this point where it is surprisingly convenient, it still comes off as a bit of a deus ex machina.  Had the writers introduced Twilight Sparkle's memory spell as a "Chekov's Gun," (a literary technique whereby an unimportant element introduced early in the story becomes significant later on), they could have avoided this.

(As a side note, the scrolls that Twilight Sparkle wrote to the princess about the lessons of friendship that she learned during Season 1 is an excellent example of a Chekov's Gun-- throughout season 1 they were used only as a way to sum up the message of each episode, however they became a key plot element in part 2 of "The Return of Harmony."  As a second side note, wasn't Twilight Sparkle's magic shown to be ineffective against Discord's powers when her "fail-safe" spell failed to work in "The Return of Harmony Part 1?"  How come her magic, in the form of her memory spell, was suddenly able to work against the spells that Discord had placed on the rest of the Mane 6?  Is this a possible continuity error?)

The second thing that I really didn't like about this episode was the nearly suicidal overconfidence that Discord showed towards the Mane 6 when he was confronted by them and the Elements of Harmony the second time after Twilight Sparkle had restored her friends back to normal.  Despite the fact that the Mane 6 were no longer under his power, and that they were armed with the same magical artifacts that had defeated him and brought his first reign of chaos to an end thousands of years ago, he shows absolutely no concern about them what-so-ever and even sits, barely interested, yawning in a chair as they blast and defeat him unchallenged.  This really disappointed me because this was supposed to be the *climax* of the story arc, and due to Discord's complete dismissal of his foes it was completely lacking in any sort of tension or excitement.  Or in other words, the climax was anti-climatic.  There was no final struggle and the final battle was completely one-sided.  Where was the danger for the heroes?  Where was the risk to them? The climax is supposed to be the most exciting part of the story, but instead it was overshadowed by the attempt by the heroes to catch and restore Rainbow Dash.  I spent an entire week wondering how the heros were going to defeat an all-powerful villain like Discord, and instead Discord just sat back in a chair and let the ponies defeat him.  How disappointing.

As far as what I enjoyed about the episode goes, like Ziel I very much enjoyed how the ponies acted out-of-character when they were gray.  Some of the antics of gray-Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie, and Rarity were pretty funny.  The funniest moment for me however was the whole scene where Twilight Sparkle finally finds the Elements of Harmony hidden in her book in her Library-- that whole scene is great!  I love how she calls her element the "big crown thingie!"  I love when she hastily promotes Spike to be "the new Rainbow Dash!"  And I also love how she yells "Look out!  Here comes Tom!" when she chucks Rarity's bolder out of the library's window with her magic!  The before-mentioned chase scene where Twilight and her friends were trying to catch and restore the gray-Rainbow Dash was also very very good.  The Star Wars spoof ending was kind of cliche to me, but it didn't really bother me either way.  Overall I did like part 2 much better than I liked part 1, but even so the combined "The Return of Harmony" parts 1 and 2 is still one of my least favorite episodes.  I have to cast this story arc onto the very bottom of my MLP:FiM list along with "A Dog and Pony Show" as my least favorite episodes.  I don't think that any MLP:FiM episode is truly bad mind you-- I just happened to like those less than the rest.

Well.... So where do we go to start a pettition to bring Discord back?

According to part 1, Discord was able to break Luna and Celestia's spell and break free from the statue because Luna and Celestia no longer controlled the Elements of Harmony-- the Mane 6 now control them.  Therefore, it begs to reason that if the Mane 6 ever pass control of the Elements of Harmony onto some other ponies the Mane 6's spell over Discord will break as well, and Discord will escape again.  So there is an open-ended way for Discord to escape.  You're not going to see me signing any petitions to make it happen though.

TL/DR.  :P  :P  :P
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Offline Hoagiebot

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2011, 10:54:51 pm »
TL/DR.  :P  :P  :P

It's your loss.  You all need to take after Twilight Sparkle a little more-- reading is good for you!   :P
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 01:31:26 am by Hoagiebot »

Offline Narei Mooncatt

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2011, 03:44:57 am »
I was browsing My Little Brony and happened upon this pic:



Maybe all those letters weren't for Twilight after all. Cellestia could have just been bored while waiting around for the ponies to win and decided it's a good payback time for when Spike had the hiccups. That it helped Twi and the others get back to normal was just a minor added convenience.
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Offline Kay Alett

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Re: MLP:FiM Season 2 Discussion (WARNING! Spoilers Within!)
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2011, 01:52:42 pm »
Or maybe its this...

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