Author Topic: Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders  (Read 954 times)

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Offline redyoshi49q

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Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders
« on: July 28, 2015, 01:57:29 am »
For those of you who haven't read this roughly two year old thread, Boy Scouts of America had previously amended their prior policy against allowing membership to homosexual youth or adult members; under the policy implemented at that time, gay youth could partake in Scouting, but gay adults (by the organization's official policy) still could not.

BSA has recently revised their policies again.  Under the now current policy, gay adults are allowed the possibility of national level positions in the organization, and local councils can have gay adult volunteers without going against national policy in doing so.

Notably, though, the new policy doesn't require individual Scouting units to accept otherwise qualified gay adults as volunteers for their unit.  Consequently, even though the national level ban on homosexual adult members has been lifted, there are likely to be units that will still deny gay adult volunteers membership, especially units that are chartered by anti-gay churches or are located in regions that are less amenable to homosexuality.
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Offline Amducious

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Re: Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2015, 02:46:08 am »
Eh I stopped being a scout a LONG time ago. I wanted to experience stuff on my own(I enjoy camping with my dad a lot and going on fishing/hunting trips with him), and not do a bunch of things to get some little patch saying I did something. When I could of just done it on my own and probably way easier. It's makes me sad though that people continue to not be accepting of people just because of their sexual orientation. Don't get me wrong being a scout is fine, it's just that they need to be more accepting.
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Offline Synaptic Road

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Re: Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2015, 01:42:23 pm »
If I remember correctly, the BSA is a religiously-oriented organization.  I was a Scout back in the day for maybe a year, but I never liked it...though I couldn't really explain it back then, either.  However, I do remember a lot of the people in my troop - Scouts and Scoutmasters alike - being religious.  Since the US Supreme Court recently ruled in favor of same-sex marriage, I have no doubt that that ruling plays at least some part in the BSA's amendment.

However, this says nothing about the BSA banning atheists from the organization.  They teach a lot of important life skills, but unfortunately, ending the gay ban on adult leaders is only a step in the right direction.

Eh I stopped being a scout a LONG time ago. I wanted to experience stuff on my own(I enjoy camping with my dad a lot and going on fishing/hunting trips with him), and not do a bunch of things to get some little patch saying I did something. When I could of just done it on my own and probably way easier. It's makes me sad though that people continue to not be accepting of people just because of their sexual orientation. Don't get me wrong being a scout is fine, it's just that they need to be more accepting.

I second this, both about "doing things on one's own terms" and the lack of acceptance about sexual identities that aren't "heterosexual."  A lot of that stems from the religious zealots who've forgotten the importance of "loving thy neighbor," despite how much they preach about Jesus' wisdom, mercy, love, and grace.  Thankfully, not all people of religious faith are like this.

Of course, this would be something best suited for the Debate forum (or perhaps unspoken altogether), so I'll stop there.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 01:46:08 pm by Synaptic Road »

Offline redyoshi49q

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Re: Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2015, 06:36:53 pm »
If I remember correctly, the BSA is a religiously-oriented organization.  I was a Scout back in the day for maybe a year, but I never liked it...though I couldn't really explain it back then, either.  However, I do remember a lot of the people in my troop - Scouts and Scoutmasters alike - being religious.

Scouting is a very principled organization; one of the most prominent goals of the organization is to help youth grow to become good citizens.  In a way, it's not terribly far off in theory from being an institution of morality that's agnostic to religion (something that, to me, seems rather depressingly rare); having said that, the "Duty to God" part of the Scout Oath, the strongly pro-religious viewpoint of BSA's founder, and the high propensity for chartering organizations to be churches or otherwise religious root Scouting into being a religion centric organization, even if most of what the organization does isn't itself religious.


However, this says nothing about the BSA banning atheists from the organization.  They teach a lot of important life skills, but unfortunately, ending the gay ban on adult leaders is only a step in the right direction.

I was actively involved in Scouting in my youth and early adulthood, and I believe that Scouting has provided a significant positive impact on my life.  Having said that, I'm not in agreement with all of Scouting's policies (for one thing, I made the OP in the prior thread).  I agree with your assessment.

I would expect that Scouting would eventually lift its ban on atheist and agnostic members (or youth members, at least) upon realizing that principled citizens of these mindsets can and do, in fact, exist; there are few arguments that are more persuasive to the organization than "X is negatively impacting the well being of Scouting's youth".  However, I can also imagine that transition to be even more grueling and pained than Scouting's transition to accept sexually diverse members (due to it being a greater and vastly more direct affront to the religious component of Scouting's culture).  As much as I might wish otherwise, it might be a while before that aspect of Scouting is debated or addressed on a organizational scale.
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Offline Synaptic Road

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Re: Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2015, 08:11:29 pm »
Quote from: redyoshi49q
Scouting is a very principled organization; one of the most prominent goals of the organization is to help youth grow to become good citizens.  In a way, it's not terribly far off in theory from being an institution of morality that's agnostic to religion (something that, to me, seems rather depressingly rare)

There are countless ways to foster in youth the importance of making a positive impact - not just in terms of being "citizens," but in terms being "humans the world can depend on," as grandiose as that may sound.  However, something I've noticed in terms of many people's attitudes is that "people need to do things 'this' way or 'that' way."  It's incredibly restrictive and has caused a lot of problems for youth by disallowing them to think and learn for themselves.  You've likely noticed the direction the American education system as taken, as well as a lot of the legislation being passed in its regard; you've also likely noticed the ignorant stereotypes and shallow perception of underage people by adults.

I have a lot of underage friends, and I can say from experience that everyone has their own unique method of learning; this is different for each person.  Scouting is certainly a good method, but it's not a good method for all youth.  "Religion" itself, unfortunately, also plays a huge role in this issue; when you have parents and a society that says you "have to be this and that" and effectively punishes you simply for "being yourself," there's a problem.  I know what you're talking about in terms of "Scouting helps youth become good citizens," but the reason it's not the best for everyone is the fundamental human aspect, called individuality - something that's actively quashed in American society now.  If you take a good look around, both offline and (especially) online, you'll see this for yourself.

Quote from: redyoshi49q
having said that, the "Duty to God" part of the Scout Oath, the strongly pro-religious viewpoint of BSA's founder, and the high propensity for chartering organizations to be churches or otherwise religious root Scouting into being a religion centric organization, even if most of what the organization does isn't itself religious.

...Which makes for quite the contradiction, doesn't it?  Not only that, but it begs the question: "if what most of the BSA does in itself is not religious, then why the need for the religious "foundation?"  That makes me think of the many people in America who still oppose things like same-sex marriage on the basis of "religious principles" and are unwilling to step out of their boxes to see things from a different perspective.  The reason I brought a separate topic here is because it is in fact not a "separate topic," but is interconnected to the "BSA amendments" topic we have now.  The fact that the BSA still bans atheists and agnostics really just reinforces that - all it would take is for those at the top of the organization's ladder to make an amendment that says "We accept all applicants, regardless of their theistic faith or lack thereof."

Just as many people are still unwilling to accept sexual orientations that aren't "heterosexual" on the basis of religious principles, so are many people unwilling to accept atheists and agnostics for the same reason.  That being said:

Quote from: redyoshi49q
I would expect that Scouting would eventually lift its ban on atheist and agnostic members (or youth members, at least) upon realizing that principled citizens of these mindsets can and do, in fact, exist; there are few arguments that are more persuasive to the organization than "X is negatively impacting the well being of Scouting's youth".  However, I can also imagine that transition to be even more grueling and pained than Scouting's transition to accept sexually diverse members (due to it being a greater and vastly more direct affront to the religious component of Scouting's culture).  As much as I might wish otherwise, it might be a while before that aspect of Scouting is debated or addressed on a organizational scale.

Unfortunately, this will not happen until people can stop butting heads over "theism vs. agnosticism/atheism/nontheism/etc." and instead stop and think for a moment about the perspectives that aren't their own.  I'm aware that I'm overstepping my bounds a bit by linking my own topic in yours, but now I'm making a connection between this entire issue and the concept of corruption.  I've seen how many theists talk about "what God says about corruption," yet their own words and holistic "beings" are tainted by that very corruption even so; there are many agnostics and atheists who've fallen to it, as well.

As off-topic as this may appear, the truth is that everything is in some way connected - I've seen this for myself.

Offline Old Rabbit

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Re: Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2015, 01:20:14 pm »
I think the gay issues with Scouting and other social groups for young people
is basicly the idea that homosexuality is a learned activity and not a natural way
of life for some.

Also I don't think homosexuals are any more likely to be pedophiles than anyone
else.






« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 01:25:05 pm by Old Rabbit »
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Offline Synaptic Road

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Re: Boy Scouts of America ends ban of gay adult leaders
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2015, 02:50:52 pm »
Quote from: Old Rabbit
I think the gay issues with Scouting and other social groups for young people
is basicly the idea that homosexuality is a learned activity and not a natural way
of life for some.

Yeah, it's a horrible misconception that's been ingrained in societies worldwide, not just America.  People continually talk about "homosexuality being a sin" and support that with Biblical quotes; those who oppose that indoctrination (as I've seen it called) state that there is nothing mention about homosexuality in the Bible, etc.  Homophobia may have been a religiously-founded misconception, but what I'm seeing now is that it's become less a matter of "religious ideals" and more "People feel the need to take a side where they'll feel comfortable sending their negativity toward others."  I've seen this happen with "theism vs. atheism" as well as "normal people vs. the LGBT community," along with many other things that aren't relevant to this topic in particular, but play a part in it even so - "conservatism vs. liberalism" (and in America, "red vs. blue"), "capitalism vs. non-capitalism," and so on.

This bothers me because in the midst of all this nonsense, the humans involved no longer see the common ground each of them share, which is just that: humanity.  I'm basically standing on the outside of all this, watching huge groups of people butting heads and getting nowhere, creating perpetual see-saws of oppression, hate, and suffering.  Instead, they must "take a side and bash the opposition."  Apparently, not many people understand that "outside" is an option," and in fact, people like to say that "outside" isn't an option.  Mind you, "outside" is different from "neutrality" in that neutrality is essentially "taking the common ground between sides."  My stance on all of this isn't "neutral" - it's a legitimate "outside perspective."

What does this have to do with your response or the topic, you might ask?  Well, let's see: the people who call themselves "normal" are actually "human," just as individuals the LGBT community are "human," BSA officials are "human," people of theists faiths (or lack thereof) are "human."  The misconception of "homosexuality being learned" is a fault of "humanity," just like the concept of "theism" as well as "atheism."  Pedophilia is something attributable to "humans," and the truth is that any "human" has the potential to be a pedophile (mind you, this doesn't equate to "all humans are pedophiles to some degree").

...Hopefully the point I'm trying to make is clear by now, but in case it isn't: this topic and the dilemma it addresses isn't an issue of "religion" or "politics" or anything of the sort, but the origin of all those things: "humanity."

Quote from: Old Rabbit
Also I don't think homosexuals are any more likely to be pedophiles than anyone
else.[/i]

Because, again, it's an issue of "humanity."  xD