Poll

Should the UK stay or go?

Stay in EU.
9 (64.3%)
Leave the EU.
3 (21.4%)
Undecided.
2 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Author Topic: BREXIT: Stay or go?  (Read 2036 times)

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Offline Kobuk

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BREXIT: Stay or go?
« on: June 22, 2016, 11:31:08 am »
Been a lot of news reports lately about the UK staying or leaving the European Union this week. What are your thoughts?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-donald-trump/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/world/non-brits-guide-to-brexit-explainer-trnd/index.html
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Offline Loc

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2016, 11:39:18 am »
Stay. Leaving is going to make things start collapsing around us Brits. Not going to go into huge amounts of detail right now, kind of fed up of the whole thing.

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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2016, 12:45:32 pm »
I've heard arguments for both sides, I am currently undecided.  After the Scottish Independence it's hard to trust any political stance on what is 'the truth'

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2016, 02:00:35 pm »
I think it's a case of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" with good reasons on both sides.
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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 11:51:27 pm »
Leave. The EU was a stupid idea from the start, and its breakup is inevitable. It'll be better (well, less bad) for all concerned to get it over with quickly.
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2016, 05:02:37 am »
I'm gonna vote stay, arguments for staying seem more worth while than leaving

Offline Old Rabbit

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2016, 11:56:02 am »
I can't speak for the Brits.

If the EU is to survive the individual countries are going to have to work together. Open
borders without it will create and has created problems. Terrorists love indecision.



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Offline Khronae

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2016, 12:58:28 pm »
I've yet to hear a single convincing argument in favour of leaving, and have seen lots of independent financial analysis showing that leaving would be an economic disaster - I think it was 6% fall in GDP that was projected. That's catastrophic, and will take decades of recovery.

Furthermore, a lot of the 'facts' used by the Leave campaign have turned out to be worthy of the quote-unquote, as well as the fact that their campaign had some pretty obvious holes - saying that leaving the EU could save such and such which would fund however many schools and hospitals - but of course, they refuse to state that those funds would go to, say, education and healthcare - the emotive cards that they're using for argument. Where else are you going to put it then? Use the classic Conservative approach of lining their classmates' pockets?

Offline Loc

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2016, 01:25:06 pm »
This gets even more fun when you consider that the referendum and its results are not legally binding. The government is under no obligation to actually do what is voted for. The whole thing is a giant opinion poll, and nothing more. Whichever side wins, the government can turn around and say "no, cos we say no" and do the opposite.

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Offline Foxpup

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 09:56:02 pm »
I've yet to hear a single convincing argument in favour of leaving, and have seen lots of independent financial analysis showing that leaving would be an economic disaster - I think it was 6% fall in GDP that was projected. That's catastrophic, and will take decades of recovery.
Of course leaving will be an unmitigated disaster. The Leave campaigners have to pretend that it won't be, because otherwise voters might think that remaining in the EU is an option. It isn't. You can't have sovereign economic policy and an international currency at the same time, and the EU's attempt will lead to total economic collapse sooner or later. Hopefully sooner, since the longer it takes the worse it will be in the end. The EU will not survive. This isn't a vote on whether Britain leaves the EU, but when. The clock's ticking.
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Offline Loc

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2016, 03:31:38 am »
The UK has voted to leave. :(

Now we just have to wait and see whether the government goe through with it.

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2016, 03:46:49 am »
The UK has voted to leave. :(

Now we just have to wait and see whether the government goe through with it.
PM David Cameron just announced he'll resign (most likely by October) and let the next government deal with it (in a calculated move to avoid the blame if they don't).
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Offline Loc

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2016, 03:58:34 am »
Now we just have to hope the next PM isn't secretly UKIP or something equally stupid.

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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2016, 04:28:24 am »
Live updated news is found here in live timeline:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-results-live-brexit-wins-as-britain-votes-to-leave/


http://www.jkrowling.com/en_GB/#/timeline/on-monsters-villains-and-the-EU-referendum
I think JK Rowling has basically said how I feel, in beautiful detail to.

On Monsters, Villains and the EU Referendum
"I'm not an expert on much, but I do know how to create a monster.

All enduring fictional bad guys encapsulate primal terrors and share certain traits. Invincible to the point of immortality, they commit atrocities without conscience and cannot be defeated by the ordinary man or by conventional means. Hannibal Lecter, Big Brother, and Lord Voldemort: all are simultaneously inhuman and superhuman and that is what frightens us most.

As this country has entered what will come to be seen as one of the most divisive and bitter political campaigns ever waged within its borders, I've thought a lot about the rules for creating villains. We are being asked whether we wish to remain part of the European Union and both sides of this campaign have been telling us stories. I don't mean that in the sense of lying (although lies have certainly been told). I mean that they are appealing to us through our universal need to make sense of the world by storytelling and that they have not been afraid to conjure monsters calculated to stir up our deepest fears.

This is nothing new, of course. All political campaigns tell stories. They cast themselves as our champions, flatter us with tales of who we are or could be, sell us rose-tinted memories of the past and draw frightening pictures of the perils that lie ahead if we pick the wrong heroes. Nevertheless, the tales we have been told during this referendum have been uglier than any I can remember in my lifetime. If anyone has enjoyed this referendum, it can only be those hoping for greater personal power at the end of it.

The Leave campaign's narrative has descended to this: we are being exploited or cheated by the EU. If we can't see that Britain will only regain superpower status if we leave the union, we must be unpatriotic, cowardly or part of a corrupt elite.

Remainers have mostly countered, not with an optimistic vision of the union, but with bleak facts: money is pouring out of the country at the prospect of the Brexit and experts in every field think that leaving the EU will be a catastrophic mistake. Be afraid, says Remain, turn back while there's still time: you are hurtling towards a precipice.

However, Remain are finding many ears closed to their grim prognostications. The economic crash of 2008 left a pervasive feeling in its wake that financial institutions are not to be trusted. 'The establishment' has become a term of blanket abuse. We live in a cynical and insecure age. Trust in disinterested sources has been shaken, while popular culture glorifies the hunch and the gut feeling. In America, they call this 'post-truth politics'. Forget the facts, feel the fury.

The 'Leave' campaign is benefiting from our widespread cynicism and, unsurprisingly, fanning it. 'People in this country have had enough of experts,' Michael Gove declared recently on television. So what if the Financial Times, the markets and the heads of the Bank of England and the International Monetary Fund agree that Brexit will do severe damage to the economy? They're just scaremongering, says Gove. Leaders of both campaigns want us frightened only by monsters of their choosing.

For some on the Leave side, the EU is not merely imperfect, or in need of improvement: it is villainous. The union that was born out of a collective desire never to see another war in Europe is depicted as an Orwellian monolith, Big Brotheresque in its desire for control. Widespread confusion about what the EU does and does not do has been helpful to Leave. The results of a recent IPSOS/Mori poll reveal the depth of our ignorance. We dramatically underestimate the amount of international investment we receive from the EU, while grossly overestimating how many laws it makes, how much it spends on administration and the number of EU immigrants in this country. In some cases our guesses were out by factors of ten.

Immigrants, of course, have been at the centre of some of the nastiest arguments of this campaign. Reasoned discussion has proven nigh on impossible. Remainers insist that we retain border control and that we need immigration, not least because so many of our medical staff running the NHS come from abroad. They insist that our defensive capability and our anti-terrorist strategies are enhanced by membership of the EU. Their arguments have proven only partially successful, because Leave has been busy threatening us with another montster: a tsunami of faceless foreigners heading for our shores, among them rapists and terrorists.

It is dishonourable to suggest, as many have, that Leavers are all racists and bigots: they aren't and it is shameful to suggest that they are. Nevertheless, it is equally nonsensical to pretend that racists and bigots aren't flocking to the 'Leave' cause, or that they aren't, in some instances, directing it. For some of us, that fact alone is enough to give us pause. The picture of Nigel Farage standing in front of a poster showing a winding line of Syrian refugees captioned 'Breaking Point' is, as countless people have already pointed out, an almost exact duplicate of propaganda used by the Nazis.

Nationalism is on the march across the Western world, feeding upon the terrors it seeks to inflame. Every nationalist will tell you that their nationalism is different, a natural, benign response to their country's own particular needs and challenges, nothing to do with that nationalism of yore that ended up killing people, yet every academic study of nationalism has revealed the same key features. Your country is the greatest in the world, the nationalist cries, and anyone who isn't chanting that is a traitor! Drape yourself in the flag: doesn't that make you feel bigger and more powerful? Finding the present scary? We've got a golden past to sell you, a mythical age that will dawn again once we've got rid of the Mexicans/left the EU/annexed Ukraine! Now place your trust in our simplistic slogans and enjoy your rage aginst the Other!

Look towards the Republican Party in America and shudder. 'Make America Great Again!' cries a man who is fascist in all but name. His stubby fingers are currently within horrifyingly close reach of America's nuclear codes. He achieved this pre-eminence by proposing crude, unworkable solutions to complex threats. Terrorism? 'Ban all Muslims!' Immigration? 'Build a wall!' He has the temperament of an unstable nightclub bouncer, jeers at violence when it breaks out at his rallies and wears his disdain for women and minorities with pride. God help America. God help us all.

Donald Trump supports the break up of the EU. The inheritor of a family fortune, he has never needed to cooperate or collaborate and he appears incapable of understanding complexity or nuance. Of foreign leaders or would-be leaders, Trump is joined only by Vladimir Putin and Marine le Pen in urging Brexit upon the UK. Other than those three, there is no major political leader who isn't begging Britain to stay put, for the political and economic stability of Europe and the wider world.

I'm the mongrel product of this European continent and I'm an internationalist. I was raised by a Francophile mother whose family was proud of their part-French heritage. My French ancestors lived in the troubled province of Alsace, which spent hundreds of years being alternately annexed by Germany and France. I've lived in France and Portugal and I've studied French and German. I love having these mulitple allegiances and cultural associations. They make me stronger, not weaker. I glory in association with the cultures of my fellow Europeans. My values are not contained or proscribed by borders. The absence of a visa when I cross the channel has symbolic value to me. I might not be in my house, but I'm still in my hometown.

The 'Leave' campaign is selling itself as the courageous option. Take a leap of faith, they say. Step off the cliff and let the flag catch you! With the arrogance of a bunch of mini-Trumps they swear that everything will be glorious as long as we disregard the experts and listen to them. Embrace the rage and trust your guts, which Nigel Farage undoubtedly hopes contain a suspicion of brown people, an unthinking jingoism and an indifference to the warnings of history.

For many of our countrymen, I suspect a 'Leave' vote will be a simple howl of frustration, a giant two fingers to the spectres that haunt our imaginations, against terrorism that seems almost supernatural in its ability to hit us in our most vulnerable places, against huge corporations who refuse to meet their basic moral obligations, against bureaucracy we are afraid will strangle us, against shadowy elites we are told are working to do us down. How easy to project all of this onto the EU, how satisfying to turn this referendum into a protest against everything about modern life that scares us, whether rationally or not.

Yet how can a retreat into selfish and insecure individualism be the right response when Europe faces genuine threats, when the bonds that tie us are so powerful, when we have come so far together? How can we hope to conquer the enormous challenges of terrorism and climate change without cooperation and collaboration?

No, I don't think the EU's perfect. Which human union couldn't use improvement? From friendships, marriages, families and workplaces, all the way up to political parties, governments and cultural economic unions, there will be flaws and disagreements. Because we're human. Because we're imperfect. So why bother building these ambitious alliances and communities? Because they protect and empower us, because they enable bigger and better achievements than we can manage alone. We should be proud of our enduring desire to join together, seeking better, safer, fairer lives, for ourselves and for millions of others.

The research demonstrates that we don't know what we've got. Ignorant of what it gives us, we take the benefits of EU membership for granted. In a few days' time, we'll have to decide which monsters we believe are real and which illusory. Everything is going to come down to whose story we like best, but at the moment we vote, we stop being readers and become authors. The ending of this story, whether happy or not, will be written by us."
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 04:55:35 am by Natura Wolf »

Offline Kobuk

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2016, 10:01:41 am »
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/europe/eu-referendum-live-blog/index.html

Quote
Is the vote legally binding?

CNN Berlin correspondent Atika Shubert says that legally speaking, the referendum doesn’t mean the UK must leave the EU.

Legal analyst David Allan Green says results are only an “advisory not a mandatory referendum”.

It won’t become a legal reality until Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty (on the EU constitution) is invoked. And it may never be invoked:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

Interesting to note that Boris Johnson said he wanted to delay implementing Article 50.

This is very different from EU leaders saying UK must leave “as soon as possible”.
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Offline Old Rabbit

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2016, 11:13:00 am »
I was watching the news and heard it would take at  least 2 years to renegotiate treaties
and other agreements with the EU to complete seperation.

People in the UK will likely see higher prices for gas and other commodities due to the Pounds
loss of value. So the public may find being in the EU better after all.

Also the UK governent might even have aanother referendum on seperations before it's done.

It seems nationalism is becoming more popular around the world these days. I really don't
know enough about economics to say, but seems prices would be more stable with countries
working together. Perhaps like free enterprise countries bidding against each other to sell
their wares might be better. It should make it harder for huge corporations to control vast
enterprises, and that should lower prices due to more competition.
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2016, 01:07:37 pm »
Perhaps the EU may change to

Nicolas Sarkozy, the former French president and leader of the opposition party, The Republicans, on Friday called for a "new European treaty" in the wake of Brexit.

"What the British have said could have been said by a other European populations. We cannot ignore it," said Mr Sarkozy, who it is widely thought hopes to run for re-election.

He added: "Europe can function without the British and we have time, by the way, to rethink our relationship with our neighbour".

However, he went on the remaining 27 EU states "can no longer function in this way".

"I call for a meeting of European heads of state and government to take the decision of drawing up a new Treaty. That will show the peoples of our continent that Europe has decided to take its destiny in hand," he said.

For Mr Sarkozy, this treaty should have "five pillars".

The first should be the creation of a Schengen 2 agreement overseen by a European interior minister to ensure Europe's borders were "respected" and that non-Europeans could not enter and move around the continent as they please.

Second, he called for "an economic government of the eurozone with a stable president elected by his peers, a European monetary fund that will "ensure the independence of Europe".

Third, the principle of subsidiarity "must become a reality", bar around a dozen stategic priorities that can be handled at continental level, such as energy and agriculture.

Fourth, the European Commission "can no longer cumulate executive, legislative and judicial competencies", he said. "It must enact the European Council's decisions" and not take any without the "explicit accord of the European parliament or national parliaments".

And finaly, "the process of European englargement must clearly be stopped until further notice". Turkey, he went on, "has no place in the EU".

Offline Kobuk

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2016, 05:54:44 pm »
I guess the EU now has 1 GB of free space.  :D  :D
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Offline Loc

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2016, 06:21:40 pm »
Well I'm glad someone can joke about our economy turning to crap, people losing jobs, and the chance of the NHS going under :/

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Offline Kobuk

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2016, 07:07:03 pm »
Just because I made a joke doesn't necessarily mean I'm for the UK to leave the EU. Quite the opposite. And the joke was a bit of "sarcasm" toward the people who supported leaving. Not toward the people who were against leaving. For those who supported leaving, all I have to say is Good Luck. You're going to need it.  :P I feel the UK has more to lose by leaving than if it were to stay.

But I have to wonder: What was this whole referendum really about? Could it be.........national pride perhaps? Maybe the people who supported leaving felt that Britain could solve it's own problems and so forth and didn't need the EU to "hold it's hand" so to speak?
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2016, 07:27:33 pm »
we made a choice, no reason to get upset by it and I don't think Kobuk is being malicious

Just keep moving forwards, anything can happen.  Though Donald Trump marching down Scotland with bagpipes to his private golf course, is a rub of salt to the wound.

In the end its all nonsense of policies, no ones died, nothing is in stone

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2016, 07:39:02 pm »
Hard to not get annoyed at the way people have chosen to vote when the value of the pound crashed to the lowest it has been in more than 30 years overnight.
I reserve the right to feel annoyed about this whole situation, and to think that joke was poorly timed, malicious intent or not.

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Offline Kobuk

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2016, 07:39:19 pm »
Quote
In the end its all nonsense of policies, no ones died, nothing is in stone

As you say: Nothing in stone........yet. But even though this was a vote of the people, it still has to be debated and voted in the government, right? It's not official yet till Parliament weighs in. Read my post # 14 further above.
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Offline Loc

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2016, 07:41:28 pm »
As I said in post #8, yes, this isn't legally binding. But I would be very surprised if the government decides to overturn it, although I hope that will happen.

Either we are going to end up staying, and people are going to get annoyed the government ignored "the wishes of the people" or whatever crap, or we're going to leave the the country is going to suffer. There's no winning here.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 07:45:28 pm by Loc »

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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: BREXIT: Stay or go?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2016, 07:50:11 pm »
Local, nothing in this 24 hours matters,
at all.  its not worth getting upset over.

because its all shock talk of people who are just assuming the worst to scare the crap out of people.  we are not doomed.  I don't believe anyone here knows what's going to happen, and few even knows the inns and outs of EU politics

Your entitled to be upset, but again Kobuk was neither being rude or malicious nor commenting on you.