Author Topic: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.  (Read 2173 times)

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Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2016, 02:58:35 am »
I argue that you are equally just as bad as the people making a big deal, because I would argue you are the opposite extreme to the other argument. 
And exactly what is my argument?   I get a strong feeling that you are not really understanding what I'm saying.

Offline Arachnid

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2016, 10:07:34 am »
Jesus why have I not heard about this?
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2016, 05:26:09 pm »
I argue that you are equally just as bad as the people making a big deal, because I would argue you are the opposite extreme to the other argument. 
And exactly what is my argument?   I get a strong feeling that you are not really understanding what I'm saying.

Perhaps not, I have to admit I can't say I understand you clearly, but from conversations about requesting all toilets to be completely seperated from each other, and our past conversations, I get an idea, even if it is possibly the worng idea

Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2016, 07:37:53 pm »
Perhaps not, I have to admit I can't say I understand you clearly, but from conversations about requesting all toilets to be completely seperated from each other, and our past conversations, I get an idea, even if it is possibly the worng idea
I think that would be nice if they did things that way. But I'm not demanding that they do, or even necessarily expecting it.  But I do expecting people to be tolerant of trans people using public restrooms.

BTW, when I used the phrase "non-gender binary", I mean anyone that falls outside the standard notions of male and female.  Androgynous, gender-fluid, etc. Perhaps it's not the best term, but I'm just trying to be all inclusive.

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2016, 03:30:34 am »
But I do expecting people to be tolerant of trans people using public restrooms.

Ok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdC0AlnEE68 <-- This is my argument more or less, specifically here https://youtu.be/mdC0AlnEE68?t=2m30s but i would recommend watching the whole thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3qCJHAaiKg <--- this is another argument that is kinda worth  mentioning to, again here is specific https://youtu.be/P3qCJHAaiKg?t=3m19s

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2016, 10:40:18 am »
Quote
But I do expecting people to be tolerant of trans people using public restrooms.

What you "ask for" and what you "get" are two entirely different things. ;) You can't "expect" people to do/say what you want all the time.
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Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2016, 05:30:20 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdC0AlnEE68 <-- This is my argument more or less, specifically here https://youtu.be/mdC0AlnEE68?t=2m30s but i would recommend watching the whole thing.
Yeah, positive social change is often slow.  So what.  That doesn't mean that we should just ignore it when people actively fight against positive social change.

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2016, 05:47:47 pm »
I completely disagree,
sometimes ignorance is bliss.  Donald Trump has shown this as an example, his popularity is through people listening, more and more who are outraged by his appauling comments that more and more are listening and drawing attention to him...that is a huge mistake

Offline Arachnid

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2016, 06:23:05 pm »
I completely disagree,
sometimes ignorance is bliss.  Donald Trump has shown this as an example, his popularity is through people listening, more and more who are outraged by his appauling comments that more and more are listening and drawing attention to him...that is a huge mistake
Hey you don't have to bring Donald into this dude.
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."- Witch King of Angmar
  

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2016, 07:09:30 pm »
Hey you don't have to bring Donald into this dude.

I feel its a good example for what I am talking about, and an example that is easier to put forwards to others

Point is, stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCIYsXhR1D0
Shouldn't be taken seriously, by taking it seriously it gives them attention and therefore more power and a louder voice because people are carrying that voice.  I found this to be funny, hillerious considering anything 'Father Ted' fans I direct you to this episode which came to my mind when this woman talks about target becoming a dangerous place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beN7FftWNCM

I just found it so funny, and I shouldn't really be linking this because it kinda contradicts when i say not to draw attention, but for the sake of showing how little seriousness we should give these things, yes, a show form 1995 ridicules this behaviour already.

Point is don't give them time, attention, this is when being ignorant isn't a bad thing, otherwise it's like giving attention to a naughty child, your feeding into the behaviour
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 07:15:28 pm by Natura Wolf »

Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2016, 01:19:53 am »
Point is, stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCIYsXhR1D0
Shouldn't be taken seriously, by taking it seriously it gives them attention and therefore more power and a louder voice because people are carrying that voice.
I agree to a point. If it's just a fringe with limited to no effect and one that is mostly not taken seriously then there is no reason to bring them attention. But when you have things like states making laws that are actively against positive social change, you can't just ignore it and expect it to go away.

Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" speech: https://youtu.be/H0yP4aLyq1g
Would you honestly say that positive social change would have occurred just as quickly without things like this?
(Note: I find the part from 1:30 to 3:10 particularly relevant to my point here.)


Also, I'd like to point out that in another current thread you are advocating for disabilities to be better represented in furry art.  Well, why not just ignore the problem and it'll go away on it's own?  Yeah, clearly you don't believe that.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 01:25:32 am by Yip »

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2016, 04:03:42 am »
I agree to a point. If it's just a fringe with limited to no effect and one that is mostly not taken seriously then there is no reason to bring them attention. But when you have things like states making laws that are actively against positive social change, you can't just ignore it and expect it to go away.

Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" speech: https://youtu.be/H0yP4aLyq1g
Would you honestly say that positive social change would have occurred just as quickly without things like this?
(Note: I find the part from 1:30 to 3:10 particularly relevant to my point here.)


Also, I'd like to point out that in another current thread you are advocating for disabilities to be better represented in furry art.  Well, why not just ignore the problem and it'll go away on it's own?  Yeah, clearly you don't believe that.

Ok, i think your missing my point.

Firstly, my Disability thread comments that there is little arts, stories, etc, of furries with mental or physical disability.  I bring this up because as the furry fandom is meant to be a community known for it's welcoming and acceptance I find this information to be counter intuitive.  I understand that part of the furry fandom is about escapism, but if the majority is about escapism then you begin to erode the ideals of diverse acceptance, simply because you are denying who you are.  I am a firm believer that nothing should stop a person from achieving what they want to achieve if they have the will, want and the determination to see it through.  but when there is no art to communicate this, then you are not fully giving a diverse acceptance.

There is a theatre company in Scotland called Solar Bear, and they work with accessibility theatre for those who are hard of hearing, or are completely deaf.  They do amazing work and have discovered so much about communication with people who are deaf, and because of this they can now make art and theatre about this, but what they also know from doing this, is that they are able to inspire people who are deaf to join the performing arts, and that is the major point there.  What they say is, if there is no one to inspire someone that someone of their status, to prove that it can be done, e.g. be a deaf actor in scotland, or a black scientist in oman, etc.  Then it's unlikely they will pursue it.

My point on yours is this, yourself, Shim and other members have repeatedly pointed out that no one notices when someone of transgender quality uses a bathroom, Kobuk and others have also pointed out that it is almost impossible to enforce this act without impeding on everyone personal space.  So collectively the point is that they cannot enforce this change because it is not possible to enforce this change whether be it a bill or not.  So I argue on that score there isn't anything to complain about, and in doing so you are giving more and more attention to something that at sounds unachievable.  The woman talking about having twelve children and how the stores are meant to protect them is stupid, I should know I am a retail service person, never will I jump infront of a customer with a sword and shield and protect the customers against whatever, it's a service, prodominantly under capitalist thinking, which is, to make a profit.  These things shouldn't stop people, and as it's suggested that they cannot, then continue your normal lives and let them complain, because firstly, there isn't much they can do, and America (and the UK) have laws that still exist that are never used because they die out from never being used, and secondly by just going through your lives you make a better argument of being better 'citizens' than the people kicking and screaming.  The point is you don't actually have a problem by the sounds of it, someone is trying to make a problem, you don't need to take the bait

Connecting this with the Disability, firstly it was an observation, which I argue to a be a problem, but may not be.  I would however argue with the amount of furries and people that I have spoken to that depression and thoughts of suicide is pretty high, as well as feelings of isolation.  I would argue based on my point above, that part of this is because we are feeding too much into escapism that we are not truly that diverse.  I mean when you think about it, furries are diverse in LGBT, gender-fluidity, fetishism, race, community, etc.  Not much on people with disability though either mental, social or physical, and as such there isn't that much support for these people.  Perhaps that is why on this board there is talk of isolation, because there isn't art or a true communication that shows you can be who ever you want to be and still do the things you want to you.  If escapism is the key point then that is a problem because in constantly escaping you are severing yourself from your IRL person, and therefore you are becoming more isolated in feeling not the same person.  This is a problem I argue that does need addressing because people are impacted by this constantly, and perhaps this further attributes to why furrys is more about sex than anything else, and yes I have seem many art forms but the sexual art form seems to be the main concept of being a furry.  In your issue, people don't need to be effected, it's a bathroom which are isolated areas, so no one is going to suspect anything unless you give them reason to.  Do you think standing declaring you are transgender and have the right to use the bathroom you choose will allow you better access?  Not really, it's probably going to make you a target, because you put attention on yourself.

In regards to the martin Luther King speech i'm sorry I don't see the connection, I found that to be a little naive.  African American citizens were oppressed without the same rights as a white heterosexual man (point extends to women, LGBT, Disability, etc).  But yeah, they were oppressed, few to no one was standing for people who just had different skin colour.  This is not a  conscious decision for having different skin colour, yet the religion and politics given dictates blacks to be the spawn of Satan.  Disabled people were considered weak and left to die, etc.  From the moment of birth they were condemned.  Point is, transgender people were not.  Firstly, at some point a conscious decision has to be made to forcefully change your body to fit with your spirit inside.  But here is the other thing, you can do that.  Scientists and Doctors have put allot of time, resources and effort to enable people to change genders completely.  I'm sorry but black people didn't have that form of dedication, you do.  So I would argue you are not that unsupported if there are systems in place to enable transgender to be achievable.  I find this to be naive because it sounds like you are forcing ALL identity problems in life to be exactly the same, and therefore you are attempting to undermine me with the conversation about disability.  It's not like you were supporting my view point on the matter of disability, arguably you were suggesting that escapism is the reason so thats that.  Understandably different passions and ideals but them don't throw them all into this conversation of trying to 'win' by throwing other conversations that are not connected into this mix.


Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2016, 06:59:50 am »
Oh my god, I think I must have struck a nerve or something.  Wall of text.   x_x

First of all, you don't have to go off on this disability thing. In no way was I saying it's wrong to want to see better representation. I actually agree that it'd be nice to see that. My point of bringing it up was only to point out that you also have no problem bringing something to attention at least on some level when you think there may be a problem. That's all.  It was simply meant to show that our views are not as diametrically opposed as you make it out to be, which is also the reason I bring up MLK.

My point is not to "win" the argument. If you think that, it's no wonder you keep interpreting what I say as some kind of extreme view. It's simply not.

Here is a bit of a lesson on the argumentative style that I'm using: It's meant to find areas where we agree, so we can use that to pinpoint exactly where the disagreement is.
That's why I brought up MLK because I'm pretty sure you'd agree with me on that issue.
That's also why I brought up your disability thread because it's also an area where we agree.


Now, as for the bigger thing,
In regards to the martin Luther King speech i'm sorry I don't see the connection, I found that to be a little naive.  African American citizens were oppressed without the same rights as a white heterosexual man (point extends to women, LGBT, Disability, etc).  But yeah, they were oppressed, few to no one was standing for people who just had different skin colour.  This is not a  conscious decision for having different skin colour, yet the religion and politics given dictates blacks to be the spawn of Satan.  Disabled people were considered weak and left to die, etc.  From the moment of birth they were condemned.  Point is, transgender people were not.  Firstly, at some point a conscious decision has to be made to forcefully change your body to fit with your spirit inside.  But here is the other thing, you can do that.  Scientists and Doctors have put allot of time, resources and effort to enable people to change genders completely.  I'm sorry but black people didn't have that form of dedication, you do.  So I would argue you are not that unsupported if there are systems in place to enable transgender to be achievable.
This just shows how horribly misinformed you are about transgender issues. The "choice" you speak of is only a choice to live as your true self. If they never made that choice, they'd still have gender dysphoria. That part is NOT a choice, and it significantly reduces quality of life.   So you suggesting that they could just choose to continue denying it is the same as telling homosexual people to just live as heterosexuals.  Sure, they technically could do that, but they'll never be truly happy with themselves.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 07:16:38 am by Yip »

Offline Arachnid

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2016, 11:20:43 am »
This just shows how horribly misinformed you are about transgender issues. The "choice" you speak of is only a choice to live as your true self. If they never made that choice, they'd still have gender dysphoria. That part is NOT a choice, and it significantly reduces quality of life.   So you suggesting that they could just choose to continue denying it is the same as telling homosexual people to just live as heterosexuals.  Sure, they technically could do that, but they'll never be truly happy with themselves.
Dude that does not make any sense >:(.  I believe that they have a choice to stay the way they are, or change genders. But I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly.
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Offline Loc

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2016, 11:32:17 am »
If you were born in a body whose sex matches your internal gender identity, it might be difficult to understand how painful it is when the two do not match up. How you're trapped as something you don't want to be, with everyone identifying you as the wrong gender and making assumptions about you because of that.

While technically yes it is a choice to change gender or not, by not changing gender they are stuck in a body that their mind does not fit in and condemned to a life of sadness.

Would you tell a gay man to just deal with it and marry a woman, and live his entire life trying to force himself to be with women when it goes against his nature? No? Then why would you tell a transman to stay in a womans body?

If you would tell a gay person to pretend to be straight for their whole lives though, then I have nothing more to say to you on this matter.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 11:33:51 am by Loc »

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Offline Arachnid

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2016, 11:39:32 am »
If you were born in a body whose sex matches your internal gender identity, it might be difficult to understand how painful it is when the two do not match up. How you're trapped as something you don't want to be, with everyone identifying you as the wrong gender and making assumptions about you because of that.

While technically yes it is a choice to change gender or not, by not changing gender they are stuck in a body that their mind does not fit in and condemned to a life of sadness.

Would you tell a gay man to just deal with it and marry a woman, and live his entire life trying to force himself to be with women when it goes against his nature? No? Then why would you tell a transman to stay in a womans body?

If you would tell a gay person to pretend to be straight for their whole lives though, then I have nothing more to say to you on this matter.
That kinda gave me more info on what trans people feel, but I still can't see why they would think they are the opposite gender. And no dude I wouldn't tell a gay person to be straight.
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Offline Loc

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2016, 11:41:07 am »
It isn't something they actively choose to do. They don't wake up one day and say "hey, I think I'll decide to be trans today", in the same way that people don't wake up and take a decision on their sexuality. It is just how they are.

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Offline Arachnid

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2016, 12:09:26 pm »
It isn't something they actively choose to do. They don't wake up one day and say "hey, I think I'll decide to be trans today", in the same way that people don't wake up and take a decision on their sexuality. It is just how they are.
Not trying to be offensive or anything, but that just sounds like a disorder.
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Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2016, 12:16:58 pm »
Oh my god, I think I must have struck a nerve or something.  Wall of text.   x_x

First of all, you don't have to go off on this disability thing. In no way was I saying it's wrong to want to see better representation. I actually agree that it'd be nice to see that. My point of bringing it up was only to point out that you also have no problem bringing something to attention at least on some level when you think there may be a problem. That's all.  It was simply meant to show that our views are not as diametrically opposed as you make it out to be, which is also the reason I bring up MLK.

My point is not to "win" the argument. If you think that, it's no wonder you keep interpreting what I say as some kind of extreme view. It's simply not.

Here is a bit of a lesson on the argumentative style that I'm using: It's meant to find areas where we agree, so we can use that to pinpoint exactly where the disagreement is.
That's why I brought up MLK because I'm pretty sure you'd agree with me on that issue.
That's also why I brought up your disability thread because it's also an area where we agree.


Now, as for the bigger thing,
This just shows how horribly misinformed you are about transgender issues. The "choice" you speak of is only a choice to live as your true self. If they never made that choice, they'd still have gender dysphoria. That part is NOT a choice, and it significantly reduces quality of life.   So you suggesting that they could just choose to continue denying it is the same as telling homosexual people to just live as heterosexuals.  Sure, they technically could do that, but they'll never be truly happy with themselves.

Yeah, takes a while for me to formulate things, hense wall of texts.

Ok, I am going to make a point here about the word choice.  Choice in its entirity is having more than one option or course of action, or decision making.  Without choice there is no such thing as freedom, or liberal, etc.

Going back to the speech of for equality of afro-american.  There is no choice on what colour of your skin is, it is immediate and in those times lead to a likelyhood of an outdated preconception to perceive this person as inferior, or uneducated or spawn of satan, etc.  Take your pick but they do not have a choice in the matter.  Same for physical disabilities and a good few mental disabilities.  This however is not the case for sexuality or transgender.

Now to make this clear, I AM NOT stating that they can choose how they feel, how they identify themselves, if you are gay you are gay, if you identify yourself as a man in a womans body, same.  But like it or not you DO have a choice as to when to reveal this information, and more importantly to whom.  Argue as much as you want people who are black cannot do that, same for disabilities.  This is easily exampled in allot of LGB behaviour in living how they want to live while withholding some information to certain people about their lives.  There is choice, that comes with consequence.

Same applies to transgender, whether you want to accept this or not, you will be seen as a child equal of all children in a typical family, you will be loved, brought up, cherished, taught, etc.  Like any other white child, as you age you gain information in the discovery of your identity as you age and become more aware of your internal and external self (as well as the world around you).  Upon which you will discover what makes you laugh, makes you cry, what sexually appeals to you more, what you feel more comforted by, what makes you feel loved, happy, etc.  All adding to your Identity, this Identity however is solely yours and for the most part it is a choice in when you share this and to who.  you may choose never to share it and potentially face a feeling of isolation, depression and other negative feelings, you may choose to immediately share it and share openly because you want to be seen as an open person, and outcomes can lead to either becoming closer or further form your family,  community, etc.  It may also allow yourself to feel more or less safer or a greater/lesser relief depending on circumstance.  You can also choose to change yourself completely and set a goal to move and change everything about your, again consequences happen depending on person and many other sources, but you get the idea.  Some people are so comfortable with who they are that they find it easy to open to people, or do so naturally that people don't need to be told who they are, because they signify it so effectively.

The biggest fact however, is that a choice to change yourself is given to you by science and medical research, that choice is there because people put effort into it.  Without this learning your choice would be limited, infact there may be no choice and would definitely be in oppression.  But the fact that people have put research in this and there are steps into changing gender means that choice to gender is available, and that is a bloody good thing is it not, to have choice to change and become what you identify yourself as.

Its rather silly how the word choice is given bad press because there is this immediate connection to outdated voices that talk of choosing how we feel, or think.  We cannot, we can control, but we cannot change who we are, instead we can discover more about who we are as the world is full of potential and possibility, and above all, choice.  In an offhand related matter, this is also why I get annoyed at religious people that talk to people about their grades, their career plans, love plans, etc and say there is no choice.  There is always choice, without choice you have no control.

On a lighter matter, choice can also be a pain in the butt.  I would like to be thin and toned but I also love chocolate, and thus harsh choices need to be made that I wish I did not need to do.  :'(
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 12:19:22 pm by Natura Wolf »

Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2016, 02:39:03 pm »
Ok, I am going to make a point here about the word choice.  ....

Simple yes or no question for you:
Is it okay to discriminate against someone if they could choose to live with greatly diminished happiness to avoid the discrimination?


Quote
The biggest fact however, is that a choice to change yourself is given to you by science and medical research, that choice is there because people put effort into it.  Without this learning your choice would be limited, infact there may be no choice and would definitely be in oppression.  But the fact that people have put research in this and there are steps into changing gender means that choice to gender is available, and that is a bloody good thing is it not, to have choice to change and become what you identify yourself as.
Yeah... it sounds like you really don't know much about the history of that. There are a lot more complexities behind it. 
For example, cis women are allowed a huge range of how and how much they express their femininity, but until fairly recently, transwomen didn't have that same freedom of expression. If they wanted help from the medical community they would have to pretend to be hyper-feminine. Otherwise they'd be denied treatment.

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2016, 02:54:33 pm »
Ok, I am going to make a point here about the word choice.  ....

Simple yes or no question for you:
Is it okay to discriminate against someone if they could choose to live with greatly diminished happiness to avoid the discrimination?

I think you need to rephrase this question, it doesn't make sense to me.  I read this as do is it ok to discriminate someone who chooses to be unhappy. 

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The biggest fact however, is that a choice to change yourself is given to you by science and medical research, that choice is there because people put effort into it.  Without this learning your choice would be limited, infact there may be no choice and would definitely be in oppression.  But the fact that people have put research in this and there are steps into changing gender means that choice to gender is available, and that is a bloody good thing is it not, to have choice to change and become what you identify yourself as.
Yeah... it sounds like you really don't know much about the history of that. There are a lot more complexities behind it. 
For example, cis women are allowed a huge range of how and how much they express their femininity, but until fairly recently, transwomen didn't have that same freedom of expression. If they wanted help from the medical community they would have to pretend to be hyper-feminine. Otherwise they'd be denied treatment.

You may not like me for saying this but sounds legitimate.  I can't imagine that the biology of changing genders is easy, and it shouldn't just go to anyone without a reason, so how do you prove it?

I finding it hard to agree with you in that you are looking for common ground when by the sounds of it you've just knocked pretty much all of my previous statement, you spoke about the miscommunication of the word choice, and you have responded nothing about it, as though you recognised nothing and seem to be disregarding allot of what I said.

Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2016, 06:44:43 pm »
I think you need to rephrase this question, it doesn't make sense to me.  I read this as do is it ok to discriminate someone who chooses to be unhappy. 
Lets say there are two people: person A and person B.

Person A has a trait that does not hurt anyone.  Person A's not able to hide the trait and the trait is easily noticed by others.
I'm pretty sure we both agree that discriminating against person A over this trait would be wrong.

Person B also has a trait that does not hurt anyone.  But person B is able to hide the trait. However, hiding the trait causes person B a great deal of anguish.
My question is, would it be wrong to discriminate against person B over this trait?


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You may not like me for saying this but sounds legitimate.  I can't imagine that the biology of changing genders is easy, and it shouldn't just go to anyone without a reason, so how do you prove it?
Do you realize that there is a spectrum of gender identity? In fact, calling it a spectrum still doesn't describe it's complexities.  Here is someone's attempt to explain it which I think does a decent job of at least highlighting how varied it is.

Offline Natura Wolf

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2016, 07:19:29 pm »
I think you need to rephrase this question, it doesn't make sense to me.  I read this as do is it ok to discriminate someone who chooses to be unhappy. 
Lets say there are two people: person A and person B.

Person A has a trait that does not hurt anyone.  Person A's not able to hide the trait and the trait is easily noticed by others.
I'm pretty sure we both agree that discriminating against person A over this trait would be wrong.

Person B also has a trait that does not hurt anyone.  But person B is able to hide the trait. However, hiding the trait causes person B a great deal of anguish.
My question is, would it be wrong to discriminate against person B over this trait?


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You may not like me for saying this but sounds legitimate.  I can't imagine that the biology of changing genders is easy, and it shouldn't just go to anyone without a reason, so how do you prove it?
Do you realize that there is a spectrum of gender identity? In fact, calling it a spectrum still doesn't describe it's complexities.  Here is someone's attempt to explain it which I think does a decent job of at least highlighting how varied it is.

I think at this case I think its just agree to disagree.  The question you ask appears to over look my statement about choice, and the question oddly reflects the American politics which is just side vs side.  if you read my argument, I mentioned multiple options, you give me only two, in the typical black and white sense.

I'm sure there is a spectrum, but its still universally and culturally seen to lean either towards masculinity or femininity.

anyways, enjoy your evening

Offline Yip

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2016, 01:19:19 am »
I think at this case I think its just agree to disagree.  The question you ask appears to over look my statement about choice, and the question oddly reflects the American politics which is just side vs side.  if you read my argument, I mentioned multiple options, you give me only two, in the typical black and white sense.
I'm not overlooking your statement about choice. I'm trying to figure out why you think it's such an important distinction.

Yes, transgender people can choose to repress that part of themselves and pretend to not be transgender. But doing so leads to them having a greatly reduced quality of life to the point that transgender suicides are among the highest in any demographic.

Why is the distinction of them having this choice relevant?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 06:47:45 am by Yip »

Offline HazardJackal

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Re: Obama orders Transgender acess according to their inner gemder.
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2016, 01:03:44 am »
Ideally i don't think the government should HAVE to get involved at all, and that everyone would just get the hell along and respect a fellow man and get on with their lives.  But no, there's hate, and there's violence, and nobody is happy because the only thing that makes THEM happy is seeing their enemies burn. 

I suffer from depression, now i'm waiting until they pass the law that forces me into a separate collage cause i might shoot up the place.  Give me a call when the world isn't as horrible as everyone says it is.