Author Topic: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?  (Read 3346 times)

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Offline Cirocco the Silver Fox

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Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« on: April 03, 2012, 04:57:28 pm »
I'm kind of amused by this actually. Being from Arizona originally and heading back that way this is about my home state even. Now personally, no matter how much I HATE trolls, and trolling in general, I don't think this is a good idea; people have a right to make an butt of themselves to certain extents. Talking someone into killing themselves isn't EVER okay - however you do have a right to be a weiner; until internet mods get rid of you.

I don't think we should make a law to outright make it illegal to be a jerk - though it would be WONDERFUL if it were more feasible on the other hand. Sometimes you truly do have to make people play nice with each other; just not sure if this is the way to do it.

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/arizona-bill-could-criminalize-internet-trolling-184547052.html
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Offline MoonlightSerenity

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2012, 06:08:13 pm »
To be fair with you it seems very stupid. And from the way it's worded also makes it seem like people in that state aren't even going to be able to cuss on the internet.

A lot of people sometimes come on the internet to blow off steam, as it seems the safer way to do so rather than taking it out irl. But I can see were the bill is coming from. It could have been worded better and not been so vague.

Things like the threats and that I can see being enough to warrant police action. But other things I don't see why they'd get their nickers in a twist over it (so to say).

Offline Jet

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2012, 06:11:02 pm »
I think, if anything, trolls should pay for their actions. If someone does commit suicide over something that was over the internet, and they find posts by a certain person that antagonized the victim, they should pay some price for it. It would be no different if I were to bully someone for years in real life and then they went and killed themselves. I would be liable under the law for forcing them into suicide. Trolls should be no different, in my opinion. Everything on the internet is traceable if you know how to work it. I just can't believe the human race sometimes...
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Offline Cirocco the Silver Fox

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 06:25:45 pm »
Yes you would - however the law is worded BADLY in my opinion. I agree fully on being held liable for certain acts you do online, including threats and anything that influences another persons decisions when they are suffering from questionable judgement be it from peer pressure, self esteem issues, or depression.

However read it again:

It is unlawful for any person, with intent to terrify, intimidate, threaten, harass, annoy or offend, to use ANY ELECTRONIC OR DIGITAL DEVICE and use any obscene, lewd or profane language or suggest any lewd or lascivious act, or threaten to inflict physical harm to the person or property of any person.

Read the underlined words - those are the major issues we have here.

1) If you act in a way irritating to people, it is criminal - my verbosity has annoyed people simply off my word choice.

2) Certain opinions are offensive to others - no religious, social, or political talk anymore on that logic.

3) No crude language - no damn, screw, bleep, sex, and other colorful adjectives while online.

4) No lascivious language - in other words NO suggesting sexual acts between other people; no cybering, online yiff, or mentioning to your significant other/partner/hook-up all the things you want to do to them. Now this likely is supposed to apply only when going after another, so in other words no more telling people to suck various parts of people's anatomy when you are frustrated.

So now you see where it degrades into the realm of stupid.
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Offline Jet

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 06:29:26 pm »
Ugh... some people are just offended too easily. See, if we all would just practice PLUR, then this would not be a problem to anyone. Such a stupid thing to even think about putting laws on anyway.
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Offline Hayaikawa

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 06:57:47 pm »
wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
is all i have to say.

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Offline Cirocco the Silver Fox

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 07:01:47 pm »
This is Arizona - my home state - we are talking about here; we have to have laws about something.

Think about it, we now have an open carry policy which means you can carry any firearm not restricted by the federal government on open display on you OR concealed on your person WITHOUT any form of permit.

Secondly we also released a preemptive knife law repealing all state/city/town level knife laws meaning that you can carry any kind of knife of any length of any legal type on your person; this includes: pocket knives, utility knives, daggers, swords, axes, butterfly knives, and any other kind of bladed object not restricted for ownership by the United States Federal Government.

The above two are part of the reason I LOVE Arizona - where else can I walk down main street with my crossbow slung over my shoulder :P

But as you can see, aside from Illegal Immigration we still have to regulate something just to pretend the Government fatcats are earning their paychecks.
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Offline Alexandre

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 11:30:37 pm »
Just so people know, this thread was removed for a time because it does discuss trolls.  Generally, we don't allow discussion of hate groups and trolls because, well, it's created problems for us in the past.  However, this law is important for internet people to know about, and we've decided it's a good discussion to have.

I apologize for the interruption. Feel free to continue the convo :)
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Offline Kael

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 12:30:27 am »
This is SOPA all over again......
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Offline WhiteStorm

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 12:43:34 am »
When did threats and bullying become trolling? "Troll" has started to mean so many things it's almost meaningless I swear.

Also... have you ever thought, if humans find a way to stop ageing after maturity, the ancients in politics who fail to understand the present would never die off? Yikes.
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Offline Avan

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 01:59:52 pm »
Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that arizona is going to be, if it hasn't already, trolled? >.>

Also, this bill wins 6/5 facepalms. If the word "annoy" appears in a bill, it was probably written collaboratively by mentally impaired monkeys at typewriters.
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Offline Storm Fox

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 10:44:00 pm »
What Iíd like to know is what is the proposed range of jurisdiction for this?
Because regardless of what various state politicians would like to believe, they canít tell other states and countries what they can and canít do.

So I'm wondering what if an offending person is out of state, let alone in a different nation altogether.
Would the state of Arizona actually file for extradition if for example, someone from another nation caused some problem that violates this proposed law?
And what if both parities are out of jurisdiction, but the website in which an offense occurred on, is hosted on a server thatís within the state?

Thinking about things like this make me honestly believe that all of this would be completely unenforceable in most all cases.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 10:48:08 pm by Storm Fox »
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Offline Alsek

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 12:22:28 am »
I believe in the first amendment of the United States constitution when it comes to government power... Even on the state level.  Individual communities (Like furtopia) can set up their own barriers and set standards for what they allow.

You'll notice there aren't ever any trolls here.

It's dangerous to allow the government to mandate what kind of speech is and is not okay.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 05:56:46 am by Alsek »

Offline Yip

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2012, 12:40:37 am »
You'll notice there aren't ever any trolls here
While the rules and staff here generally do a good job at troll control, I would still say it is quite an exaggeration to say they stop them all.

Offline Avor

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2012, 07:18:27 am »
Last I checked the constituton was to protect free speech, not hurt feelings.

When did threats and bullying become trolling?

QFT







Also... have you ever thought, if humans find a way to stop ageing after maturity, the ancients in politics who fail to understand the present would never die off? Yikes.

Offline PsychotixxFoxx

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2012, 04:26:49 pm »
Trolling?? Seriously?? I troll on a daily basis (I'm not saying I talk people into killing themselves, I just post the occasional "gay" on my friend's status updates or whatever.) It's human nature to pick on each other. Plus 99.9% of trolling is nothing but hot air. I think that the people who kill themselves over some text on a computer screen should have full responsibility of their death, not the trolls who provoke it. People need to learn to suck it up and laugh things off. Have some self confidence. Get over yourself. This bill is trolling against trolls. Not to mention all of the constitutional rights it's walking all over. Freedom of speech, helloooo??
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 05:01:50 pm by PsychotixxFoxx »

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2012, 04:37:28 pm »
Trolling?? Seriously?? I troll on a daily basis (I'm not saying I talk people into killing themselves, I just post the occasional "gay" on my friend's status updates or whatever.) It's human nature to pick on each other. Plus 99.9% of trolling is nothing but hot air. I think that the people who kill themselves over some text on a computer screen kind of deserve it. People need to learn to suck it up and laugh things off. Have some self confidence. Get over yourself. This bill is trolling against trolls. Not to mention all of the constitutional rights it's walking all over. Freedom of speech, helloooo??

Kindly remove the part I highlighted, please. That's pretty rude, and insensitive to say such things. You should never wish harm on another person lest you also want harm on yourself.  >:(
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Offline PsychotixxFoxx

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2012, 04:43:57 pm »
As far as I know, I'm not breaching any rules by stating what I think. I'm not wishing harm on anyone, I just believe that people should have more of a spine and not allow the empty words of some vague internet troll to control them. In all reality, those people are allowing themselves to feel offended and should still be responsible for taking their own lives, not the random troll who pushed them to it. If you state a rule to me that shows that I absolutely need to remove that, I will, but I feel like you asking me to remove it is unfair, especially considering the topic being discussed.

Offline Kada-Ru

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2012, 06:53:04 pm »
Quote
As far as I know, I'm not breaching any rules by stating what I think. I'm not wishing harm on anyone, I just believe that people should have more of a spine and not allow the empty words of some vague internet troll to control them.

The problem there is not all of those trolls are empty words.  That is where that law is coming in.  Not everyone is strong enough nor have the 'spine' to just suck things up and move on.  Bullying has harmed many kids growing up.  That is what bullies do.  Degrade others because it makes themselves feel so much better because they don't know how to play well with others.  Same with trolls.  They don't have much of a life themselves, probably bad grades, low self esteem so to them making others feel bad/sad what have you makes themselves feel good.

We here at Furtopia hear that all the time.  FREE SPEECH.  Well, at Furtopia, we still control what can and can't be said here.

Quote
In all reality, those people are allowing themselves to feel offended and should still be responsible for taking their own lives, not the random troll who pushed them to it.
That's it right there, what I put in red.  People don't ALLOW themselves to feel offended.  Yes, things are on the net.  The world wide web.  So what?  Words can still hurt whether face to face, written or even typed.  For those who do commit suicide there are probably other things in their life that have led to that decision and not just the words on a monitor.

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If you state a rule to me that shows that I absolutely need to remove that, I will, but I feel like you asking me to remove it is unfair, especially considering the topic being discussed.

The original topic was about the law being passed about cyber-bullies.  Not about people committing suicide.

I didn't see anywhere in that link that people were committing suicide because of trolls/bullies.  To me, making the statement you did was not warranted because it had nothing to do with the law being planned.  Bullies/trolls should be held accountable for their actions no matter what the results.

If we were to post EVERY rule to cover everything that is 'common sense' no one would be able to enjoy the forums as it would take them years to read all the rules.  We just ask that members use common sense when posting their thoughts.  It doesn't have to be a stated rule.

Quote
1. Be respectful of the staff and your fellow members at all times. Insulting or bashing other users will quite possibly get you a warning and/or a ban.
For me, I would consider your statement "I just believe that people should have more of a spine and not allow the empty words of some vague internet troll to control them. In all reality, those people are allowing themselves to feel offended and should still be responsible for taking their own lives, not the random troll who pushed them to it. would be insulting to the people who have been bullied/trolled.

And not all suicides are for the same reason.

Here is a story that I have not shared with anyone except my closest family:

I had an older sister who became an RN after raising 8 kids.  She had wanted to be an RN as long as I can remember.  She quit going to school to raise her kids.  After all of them, but one, were out of the home she went back to finish her schooling and training to be what she always wanted.  After working as an RN for two years she got a job working in a respected hospital with other RN's, nurses, doctors and other staff members of the hospital.  One of her patients was a higher up in her church.  She respected him greatly.  Then one day, because there were a couple nurses that didn't like my sister, they decided to bully her on the job.  They told her after this patient died that it was HER fault he died because she over dosed him.  My sister knew she didn't do anything wrong but still went over all her notes and knew she hadn't caused his death.  But these 2 nurses were determined to bully my sister into 'leaving' her job.  Well, after a week of this and an internal investigation had begun, my sister did just that.  She quit her job.  She drove 2 states away from her home.  Put a hose into the tail pipe.  Duck taped it to the passenger window.  Closed all car windows and vents and she drank a soda pop, took some drugs and began writing down what she was doing and why.  On the way to work one morning a trucker noticed a car pulled off to the side of the highway and saw a woman sitting in the driver seat.  He didn't think any thing of it.  On his way home from his job he noticed the same car still in the same spot and so was the woman inside.  He knew something was wrong.  He pulled off the highway and went and checked on the woman.  She was dead.  That woman was my older sister.  In her letter she stated that she couldn't bear the thought that she actually killed someone when all she wanted was to help people.  She also didn't want to put her family through a lengthy court trial and the cost would be enormous to her family.  She wanted to save her family from the court hearings, the way people would look at her and her family and the financial burden it would cause.

He reported to the cops who came out and took care of the scene and took the letter into evidence.  They also went and investigated the nurses at the hospital that my sister had mentioned about what they did and said to her.  You know what the police found during that investigation?  NOTHING!  Why?  Because the nurses responsible for everything that led up to my sister taking her own life denied everything.  And because of this it was my sister's word against theirs.  Guess who won?  It also turned out that my sisters patient died of natural causes and she had indeed done nothing wrong in administrating his meds.

If these nurses hadn't bullied her like they did for days on the job, she would NEVER have taken her life.  For me, these nurses were VERY responsible for what my sister did.  My sister was a very strong woman.  She could stand her own against anyone.  But this time what went wrong?  Nothing.  Not on my sisters side that is.  On the nurses side?  They played a very evil game on my sister and it caused her to take the only way she could see of saving her family the humiliation of what happened and the financial burden to defend her in court.

And she died believing that she took a mans life as an RN because of what these 2 nurses did to her.

It still makes me angry to this day when I think about what those nurses did to her. She died Dec 14, 1994.

For me, I really feel sorry for all the bullies and trolls because they don't seem to have anything better to do with their own lives than to harm others.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 06:54:59 pm by Kada-Ru »
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Offline PsychotixxFoxx

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2012, 07:03:36 pm »
In the end of that, it was still ultimately her choice to do that. You can take words however you will, and it is your choice to be offended or affected or not. Self control is the bottom line of it. It's tragic, and sick that people will do such things, but it's always going to happen. People are going to offend you, lie to you, bully you, walk all over you, plot against you, attack you; it's how you respond that matters. Words can hurt, but you can shoulder it and move forward. Your sister could have moved and started a job somewhere else, but she decided to take her own life, causing her loved ones unimaginable pain and taking a mother/sister/wife from a family who loved her. It's their opinions that should matter, not the spiteful people she worked with.

My dad abused me physically/mentally for 4 years. He made me feel horrible for even being female, squandered all my dreams, and kept me in a servile state where I tended his every need. But I snapped out of it, and realized that I allowed his control over me. I stepped up, and moved away from the situation. To this day, his words hurt and echo in my head and heart, but I don't allow them to stand in my way of moving forward.

True, this thread was about the bill - which is still utterly ridiculous. Nobody, whether the government or not, is going to be able to stop bullying/trolling. It's an individual situation, and requires individual decision-making.

Offline furtopia02

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2012, 07:13:03 pm »
I'm convinced. After reading the chaos in this thread it is obvious we need to make offending anyone illegal.





Spoiler: show
edit to add: lol figured I'd give a disclaimer that this is sarcasm above. With so many varied opinions on things on the internet it is nearly impossible to state your own without offending someone out there that may end up seeing it since its public. I really, REALLY hope we never have a law passed with the language that it makes "offending" someone a crime. You can be the most polite individual around and still offend lots of people - they may even find your politeness offensive. Just my thoughts.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 07:37:32 pm by Buckshot »

Offline Kada-Ru

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2012, 07:14:28 pm »
Too bad people can't treat others the way they want themselves to be treated.  I live by that every day.  I don't bully nor troll anyone for any reason.  I don't see the point.  If I were to do something like that I would feel really bad myself.

Every one handles things differently.  I am not going to blame the victim totally for their actions.  I am going to put 90% blame on the bully/troll.  That is just how I feel and see things.  Life is hard enough these days without other people trying to cause harm.

Just like you, I will be standing by my beliefs as well.  There's no right or wrong to this topic.

I was in a very bad home growing up as well and came out just fine.  I'm one of the survivors.  I would not be able to treat anyone the way I was treated.
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Offline PsychotixxFoxx

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2012, 07:30:38 pm »
I'm glad we can agree to disagree on that point, and I'm also glad that you've risen above those things. That phrase is key; to treat others as you want to be treated. Unfortunately, most people don't live by that.

Offline Kada-Ru

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2012, 07:42:13 pm »
I agree.  It is very sad that people don't live by those words.  But then if everyone did there wouldn't be any need for cops or jails or courts!  LOL  so many people out of jobs!  LOL

I'm glad we can agree to disagree on that point, and I'm also glad that you've risen above those things. That phrase is key; to treat others as you want to be treated. Unfortunately, most people don't live by that.
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Offline WhiteShepherd

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Re: Trolls - Nations newest criminal population?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2012, 08:11:51 pm »
Quote
You can take words however you will, and it is your choice to be offended or affected or not. Self control is the bottom line of it.

IMO that is a very polarized viewpoint that is not indicative of what is really happening.  Saying the target of an internet attack solely responsible for the harm they take does not take into account the scope or how it can affect different people in different ways.  Not all people have the same life experiences or coping skills vs bullies you do.  For example bullying/trolling is done for peer approval/reaction it escalates as friends try to out do each other to get a reaction out of the victim.  The effects of internet bullying HAVE spilled over into RL as things escalate and that is what is worrying people.  Victims have had their work contacted and fired, pictures of victims photo shopped in adult situations and spread all over the net, credit cards maxed,  reports to children services/police, social pages hacked, rumor and peer isolation on net and in school.  Just to name a few.  These situations can put peoples lives through hell for a long time.

Again not everyone has the life experience to just ignore trolls.  The crafty trolls/bullies can make their pain/discomfort felt even if someone tries to ignore them.  To add to the problem young kids sometimes unstable or abused (home/school) do not have the self esteem/self worth to deal with high stress and pressed nonstop with bullying for others amusement decide to take their lives to escape the pain.

No one SHOULD ever commit suicide or let others make them feel that way.  However there are many suffering, abused, and damaged people who can't or don't know how to defend themselves and that's WHY trolls/bullies prefer to target them. Bullies OFTEN pick people they know can't defend themselves.  The bullies ARE at fault for the harm they inflict even if they do not intend it to go so far as they do or are ďjust having funĒ (commonly quoted).  

Yes people need to grow up and learn how to get thicker skins like you did.  But bullies sometimes kill them before they get this chance.  Also this Az bill is bad to the core.  It tries to tackle a serious problem with words that sound like they came from a 4th grader. So broad and unfocused that any comedian on stage could be arrested.  Blame unimaginative politicians for that one.

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